Imitation is the Sincerest Form

[puffenstuff]

I disagree with this article in the strongest terms.The author seems to assume that ownership of an idea is some type of God-given right like life or liberty. I just can't buy that.

I suggest we take a step back and look at reasons copyright law exists. My understanding is that copyright law exists to encourage the creation of new content by giving creators a way to profit from their work. Therefore copyright laws should be measured by how well they promote the creation of new content. In this case and the case of most non-profit mods, allowing companies to restrict the new content built upon their IP does not improve the incentive for creation of new content. It does, however prevent the community from adding their ideas and new content to humanity's library of art.

 

[sneakypenguin]

This article is wrong, wrong, wrong. The idea that IP is somehow sacred and must be protected by the owner at all costs is not only false, it is quite recent development in the realm of copyrights. Things were not always perceived this way. Every major creative industry today (movies, music, and software) was built on the backs of piracy. Furthermore, when a company tries to encourage this kind of behavior by giving the fans the tools to tailor the product to their own tastes (Elder Scrolls, Neverwinter Nights) everybody wins.

Mind explaining how the movie music and software industries where built on the backs of priracy?

ES and NN though where built with the modding community in mind though, you still had to buy (or have) the original game. In this case it would be like taking the halo engine and releasing a fan based 2(no halo 1 purchase required). No original purchase and it doesn't fall under the realm of "mod" for your existing game. Would it be right if I took Crysis designed a new lvl using the game engine and pieces, paste in a few new guns and sounds and released it as a separate entity and called it "crysis 2"

 

[Doug]

My reaction is:

If the mod team tried to contact Square Enix before, and Square simply didn't respond, SE are have committed a huge dickmove by stopping this at the last possible second.

If the mod team didn't even try, SE have committed a smaller dickmove. And the mod team are a tad stupid.

Basically, I don't see why SE were so afraid of it as to have it nuked - fan made versions of the game could actually increase their overall sales - at the very least, they won't have much/any impact on sales as only internet traveller will find it.

If anything, they might have hurt themselves with this - after all, why not have a bunch of people working for free on a similar thing to you and let them experiment with the formula for free - and then you can easily copy any good things created.

 

[Grand_Poohbah]

If it turns out that SE was aware of this project from the beginning, and didn't send the cease and desist order right away, then they really are the jerks here. Just be cause you have the right to do something, doesn't make it right to do. If they only just became aware of it (say, in the last 6 months to a year), then I'm fine with what they did. But deliberately waiting until near the end of production? That's a cheap move calculated to not just protect their property, but hurt the people (all fans) working on the project. If I were actually a purchaser of any Squenix games (I'm not, I hate JRPG's), I'd have to reconsider any purchases from them in the near future.

SE was aware and told the company they could proceed only if SE could give a cease and desist order at any time. I suppose they wanted to watch them pour their hearts into the game only to destroy it.

 

[Hydrus]

This article is wrong, wrong, wrong. The idea that IP is somehow sacred and must be protected by the owner...

Err, what do you think the "P" stands for?

 

[Syntax Error]

I'll say it again. If Square does not release a new Chrono Trigger game (not a remake of Trigger/Cross) in the foreseeable future (or at least announce one), then what they did to this project is one big dick move.

The problem here is not that the developers of Crimson Echoes did what they did. They acknowledged the fact that Square could shut them down at any time. The problem is that Square waited for four years to do so, after all that time of laboring through a game, that will probably not even benefit the developers monetarily.

 

[Avatar Roku]

snip

This is the second thread I've come to intent on expressing an opinion, only to have you sum it up much better than I could.

 

[Valiard]

Ugh if you want to take a good look at corporations I think SICKO or farenheit 911 explain it well enough.

personally i still think the devs should keep copies of the game just for the hell of it I mean its four years of hard effort, just to have what can ultimately be surmised as a bully kicking your sandcastle just as you put the flag on top. I mean if SE doesnt even give them a job for this..

 

[Grampy_bone]

This article is wrong, wrong, wrong. The idea that IP is somehow sacred and must be protected by the owner at all costs is not only false, it is quite recent development in the realm of copyrights. Things were not always perceived this way. Every major creative industry today (movies, music, and software) was built on the backs of piracy. Furthermore, when a company tries to encourage this kind of behavior by giving the fans the tools to tailor the product to their own tastes (Elder Scrolls, Neverwinter Nights) everybody wins.

Mind explaining how the movie music and software industries where built on the backs of priracy?

ES and NN though where built with the modding community in mind though, you still had to buy (or have) the original game. In this case it would be like taking the halo engine and releasing a fan based 2(no halo 1 purchase required). No original purchase and it doesn't fall under the realm of "mod" for your existing game. Would it be right if I took Crysis designed a new lvl using the game engine and pieces, paste in a few new guns and sounds and released it as a separate entity and called it "crysis 2"

http://www.free-culture.cc/

The movie industry moved to California to avoid Edison's patent enforcers.

Radio was opposed as piracy. Cassette tapes were opposed as piracy. VCRs were opposed as piracy. Cable TV was opposed as piracy. The Internet is being opposed as piracy. Youtube is being opposed as piracy. Bittorrent is being opposed as piracy. See the trend here?

If someone made a Crysis expansion or sequel using the packed-in Crysis level editor, that would be awesome. You would still need to buy the original game to play it, so the publisher benefits from someone else's creativity. Who is the thief here exactly?

Half-Life was popular because of mods. Thief was popular because of mods (an entire expansion/sequel was released). Elder Scrolls are popular because of mods. These are not bad things. People will always take old stories and creations and build on them to make their own contributions, creating new ways for people to enjoy these works. This has always been the way things are, only very recently has this somehow become *Wrong.* The fact that fans want another Chrono Trigger sequel so bad they are willing to make it themselves should tell Square something. These people should not be punished any more than all the other talented artists out there who have been inspired by other works.

 

[Avatar Roku]

snip

This is the second thread I've come to intent on expressing an opinion, only to have you sum it up much better than I could.

Heh, I guess I owe you a 'thanks+sorry'

Not at all. As I said, you summed it up better than I could; if I tried, I would have come across as stupid (as I tend to in the big discussions), so really I should be thanking you.

 

[calelogan]

To set things straight, I am in favor of modding and fan art, but this is definitely a shady area.

Legally most of these "derived works" aren't allowed, but it's funny while "Crimson Echoes" gets a "Cease and Desist" letter and "Half-Baked Snake" sells out.

No wonder Creative Commons works out...it's one of the few reasonable solutions.

 

[sneakypenguin]

Radio was opposed as piracy. Cassette tapes were opposed as piracy. VCRs were opposed as piracy. Cable TV was opposed as piracy. The Internet is being opposed as piracy. Youtube is being opposed as piracy. Bittorrent is being opposed as piracy. See the trend here?

If someone made a Crysis expansion or sequel using the packed-in Crysis level editor, that would be awesome. You would still need to buy the original game to play it, so the publisher benefits from someone else's creativity. Who is the thief here exactly?

but no ones buying the "original" game here though, kinda like taking someones engine without permission. If this was a direct mod of a game requiring the original to play I would have no issue here, but since it's a hack of the game it's ground that Square prolly doesn't wanna go. Allow this then do we let someone make a new game with FF7 code? That's the thing here yes TES HL and such where popular cause of mods, but this IMO doesn't quite fit the definition. This would be like someone taking source and making a fan version of Ep 3 in a few years(for free DL)

Half-Life was popular because of mods. Thief was popular because of mods (an entire expansion/sequel was released). Elder Scrolls are popular because of mods. These are not bad things. People will always take old stories and creations and build on them to make their own contributions, creating new ways for people to enjoy these works. This has always been the way things are, only very recently has this somehow become *Wrong.* The fact that fans want another Chrono Trigger sequel so bad they are willing to make it themselves should tell Square something. These people should not be punished any more than all the other talented artists out there who have been inspired by other works.

 

[sonidraw]

Bottom Line: Does Square-Enix make money out of it and protect their property rights? If allowing this fan-made game to be released does not make Square-Enix money or protect their property rights, then the "cease-and-desist" makes perfect sense.

In the case of games like Half-Life, which was popular for its mods, or a game I'm currently playing (Mount & Blade by TaleWorlds) the mods help increase the original company's profits and don't infringe on property rights at all. In those cases, it was fine.

In the case of machinima, such as Red-vs-Blue, when Bungie got wind of it, they turned out to like it. It increased Halo's popularity and it turned out to be a mutually beneficial endeavor. RoosterTeeth wasn't making a new game afterall.

But when a company tries to make a new game using another company's property without their permission... ya, that sounds like stealing to me, and Square-Enix is well within their rights to stop the release.

 

[Log Lady]

Okay, So you're right that (at least under US law, I suppose), Square was well within it's legal bounds in shutting down this operation. However, this is precisely where the trade off between monopoly-like rights and incentives for intellectual innovation ought to make us a little uncomfortable about IP. It's not as clear cut as you make it out to be. I expect I'll be posting a little bit about this article in my own little thread in the next few days. This isn't really property in that b/c the stuff is non-rivalrous, and there's no harm for fan fiction sequels. Because there's no cost in producing the fan made game at this point, there's no reason to back property rights that prevent it. It wouldn't hurt Square if it came out, and even if it did, the game would produce a net positive utility IMO.

 

[swatmajor1]

Ok, I'm just gonna throw my 2c into this.

I do believe in the right to protect ones intellectual property, however, I feel that the way that SE handled the situation was wrong and immoral. and I don't want to hear abunch of pro-Ip people yelling either.

I feel that we have reached a time where people should be encouraged to make fan fiction with all tools available. Even SE gives the green light on Fan Fiction. The fan written story of what happened to Aerith from FFVII was praised by SE. So why not this.

Ok I'm done.

 

[Blow_Pop]

This is the most subjective article I have ever seen on the escapist, and also the one I disagree with the most.

Most subjective, yes.

I agree with it totally. Why should this company be forced to share their IP with the modding community against their wishes? It's their product; they may do what they wish with it.

Admittedly, it was a dick move on Square's part. However, it's completely within their reign of power, and I would probably have done the same were I in their position.

exactly. They should have known it was coming and if not that is their fault. Essentially they had no creativity on their own to create something new. Why should they be able to use SE's stuff without permission? Last I checked that was stealing. They got what they deserved IMO

 

[G-Mang]

One does not need permission to legally make derivative work as long as what one does qualifies as fair use. In the case of this game, they didn't actually steal anything--it's a mod that you patch onto the full game. It never actually takes anything out of their product and calls it new (and even if it did, it could still qualify for fair use). This isn't theft in any way. It merely gives the ideas of the game a different light.

The idea that people deserve complete and total control over the very way their intellectual property is looked at is the very reason why our intellectual property laws have become abominable failures. They are unnatural and outdated. That, if anything, is what my years of studying new media at a university have taught me.

If you want to read into it, The Economy of Ideas [http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.03/economy.ideas_pr.html] would be a good place to start.

 

[TheLostSkeleton]

When a Nascar driver gets in a wreck, unless it cripples them so they can never drive again, generally they hop right back in the driver's seat.

For years, the Cease & Desist has been used as a scare tactic against fan projects like this and nothing else. And most companies eventually learn that pursuing this sort of endeavor is costing them more money and effort than they would recoup from whatever potential lawsuits would come of it.

Most notorious is FOX. There's a whole term out there - one that's long since died out - called being "FOXed". The term arose after FOX shut down an Aliens-themed Quake 1 mod. FOX was also notorious for shutting down any and all fansites for The Simpsons, regardless of content or context. Paramount was also guilty of this with regards to fansites for Star Trek.

Eventually they gave up, because it just wasn't worth the effort. The amount of money gained from a lawsuit over something like a Chrono Trigger ROM hack would most likely not even be enough to cover court costs. Square-Enix would literally be throwing $15,000-$50,000 down the drain to stop something that was never really a threat to begin with. And I'm sure they know that - which is why the Cease & Desist is worthless. It's like some guy telling "Stop! I've got a gun!" when all he has is a toy that shoots foam darts. They're just trying to scare people away.

Other companies are more progressive. Sega has turned a blind eye to fan projects for over ten years, which has blossomed in to a thriving community dedicated to hacking Sonic the Hedgehog ROMs and developing fangames made in C++ [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL9DejAE4ik&feature=PlayList&p=6C0F42915FC0159A&index=17]. This sort of stuff is basically just fanart and fanfiction but applied to the space of gameplay, and wasting your time trying to stop it is telling your fandom to stop being fans.