Imitation is the Sincerest Form


New member
Jan 6, 2009
Sean Sands said:
Imitation is the Sincerest Form

The guys who made Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes should've seen Square Enix's cease and desist letter coming a mile away.

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This is a narrow-minded article that left a permanent palm imprint on my face, and there aren't enough words to fully explain my contempt for what's being said here. Square Enix did not protect their assets. They led a personal attack on their fanbase which is only going to harm them. However you want to justify Square Enix's legal rights, and even those aren't 100% clear, it's a stupid move from a business perspective. Allowing it would NOT set some dangerous precedent - it would set a useful one. Giving fans confidence and justification for putting hours of their lives into making alternate content that does nothing but promote the brand is a win-win situation.

The fans were just filling a demand that Squeenix wasn't, and it served to benefit Squeenix.

It doesn't come off as some cartoony cliche to me. It comes off as unadulterated stupidty. And I have no sympathy for the fans who made this game either, as they should definitely have fought to release their fan game.

By the way, it's a misconception that copyright is made to protect private business. It's meant to fuel science and art - it's a tool to increase innovation and creation of original works.

I hope more and more people became aware of misfortunes that strict enforcement of copyright cause. Maybe that way, we can get a blanket law that protects all fan-created non-profit work under the "fair use" rule. And the punishment of stupid companies that abuse and misuse DMCA takedown notices would be ideal as well. It's time to start protecting consumers, who stand by ignorantly as their rights are taken away. Corporations have more than enough protection for no apparent reason, and it's ruining the very point of copyright. Even many people well-versed in copyright will tell you that whole system needs to be restructured.


New member
Jan 6, 2009
Is it a problem that I double posted? It was unintentional.

G-Mang said:
One does not need permission to legally make derivative work as long as what one does qualifies as fair use. In the case of this game, they didn't actually steal anything--it's a mod that you patch onto the full game. It never actually takes anything out of their product and calls it new (and even if it did, it could still qualify for fair use). This isn't theft in any way. It merely gives the ideas of the game a different light.
As far as I know, this isn't true, unfortunately. Fan-created content does not fall under the "fair use" umbrella. Content creators can (and should) choose to turn a blind eye to it, but they are also within full legal rights to take action (which is a dire and pathetic consequence of the current misuse of copyright).


New member
Sep 27, 2007
They wait at the very last moment to release a cease & desist letter to the developers of a fanmade game, a game that was made without copyright claim or intent to make profit. They decided to pass on their chance to recognise good story telling talents and to give a chance to some noobs to start a gaming carrer.

It's not like Square Enix's going to lose their goose that laid Golden Eggs (Chrono Trigger) because of a fan project. This is what's wrong with the video game industry. I know that they're only protecting their assets against a potential threat but the fact that they're acting like Madagascar in the game Pandemic 2 is just disturbing.

"I heard that fans are using our pixels and sounds to create a role playing game based on one of our fantasy setting."

I guess some people are going to say that "the law is the law!" and I can't really say anything against that... except that I'm the law and it's now illegal to buy Square Enix games.


New member
Nov 26, 2008
An example of how it should be done:

(yes, they're actively supporting FAUCet, a group of fans copying/making caricatures of valve games);boardseen#new

Maybe not the best example to give critism on squenix, but still...


New member
Mar 12, 2008
sneakypenguin said:
but no ones buying the "original" game here though, kinda like taking someones engine without permission. If this was a direct mod of a game requiring the original to play I would have no issue here, but since it's a hack of the game it's ground that Square prolly doesn't wanna go. Allow this then do we let someone make a new game with FF7 code? That's the thing here yes TES HL and such where popular cause of mods, but this IMO doesn't quite fit the definition. This would be like someone taking source and making a fan version of Ep 3 in a few years(for free DL)

Do you really think Square-enix will *lose* sales because of a Chrono Trigger mod? That's like saying J.K. Rowling is losing money because of all the Harry Potter fanfiction.

IP is not sacred, never has been and never will be.


New member
Apr 3, 2008
Anonymouse said:
So change a few names. Its now Kronus Trigger change all the char names slightly and change all the sprites. For example a new hair colour... Then release it and don't even give square any credit.


New member
Jul 9, 2008
Irridium said:
Wait wait wait, they were working on it for 4 years and no one even bothered asking square if it was ok?

They didn't think that they would get told to stop, even though they took assests from the games without asking?!

Thats like taking my car without even asking, and painting over it with differant designs.
Sure, tehn end product may be cool, and no one gets hurt, but you still steal my damn car and paint it without my permission.

Are people really this stupid?
It's called "Pimp My Ride".

Really though, should've left out the "Chrono Trigger" in the title, likely to have pulled less attention towards it.


New member
Apr 11, 2009
'Setting a dangerous precedent'? It takes a lot of skill to make something that approaches the quality of the official product, and as such fan games of this calibre are few and far between. I tried to make a fully-fledged Sonic game in the Advance style, and as well as I did for a teenager learning to code from home, I simply couldn't do it. Now that I'm older and wiser I'm going to pick it up again once I've finished uni and not make the mistakes I did before, and no-one is going to tell me otherwise. Why should I be punished because I love a franchise so much that I'm willing to invest a huge amount of my free time into an inferior product that I will never profit from and serves only to keep what I and other fans love about it alive and fresh?

Protecting your assets is all well and good, but who are they protecting it from? The fans who will buy the official games regardless? That is utterly nonsensical. Star Wars was pretty much handed over to the fans, and the official installments have flourished and grown immeasurably. Fan content keeps a series alive and gives it the support it needs, and top-quality fan content contributes to this; it does not take it away. So while Square Enix are within their rights to pull a dick move, they are beyond idiotic to do so.


Dangerfield Newby
Jan 5, 2009
Mstrswrd said:
I understand the legality, and lack-there-of, but my only problem is that it was probably going to be really good. In this case, couldn't Square, oh, I don't know, give them, instead of a "cease and desist," a, "Come into talks with us?" kinda thing? What I mean is, they could look at the game, and, if it really is quite as awesome as it sounds like it was going to be, basically say "Alright. You guys walked a fine line, but we really like the game. Finish it up, send it to us, we'll add the polish, and then we'll release it on the DS, XBLA, and PSN."

Seriously, that could have made everyone happy. We would have gotten the game, the people who made it would have gotton it released, and Square would have made money, at little to no cost to themselves. And the people who made it would have to accept whatever bare-bones paycheck they might get from Square as a thank you. Then, they should be hired, assuming they don't have jobs in the industry already.
I honestly think that would be the best thing to do, especially after four years of development, but SE was entirely justified because in the end, it was their engine. If whatever the dev team for this sequel was made their own sprites, level backgrounds, etc... there should be no problem, even with the name and characters.


Bringer of Words
Jul 30, 2008
I'm a little split on this article. On one hand, I will protect to the ends of the Earth Squeenix's right to do this. On the opposite face, coming down so hard on them this late in production and doing so without recourse is a little harsh and sudden. So, let's go into some depth on each coin face.

On the hand of Squeenix, this is the law. Regardless of what the fans may want to think, like distributing ROMs of a game that is no longer in production, it is illegal. They are well within their rights of calling on their intellectual property, and Kajar specifically stated in their demo that if Squeenix asked, they'd pull. Squeenix asked, they pulled. I see this as a no-harm, no-foul situation since Squeenix has both the common sense and the law on their side. Considering Chrono Trigger was recently released on the Nintendo DS, this could effectively alter sales on a game that is still currently in production. This ROM is calling for an increased distribution of ROM files, well over 99% of which will be illegal. Squeenix was both within their rights, and simply just right, to do this. (Also, footnoting this to say that if Kajar was trying to sell this ROM-Hack, the I'd have to say Squeenix did the right thing, no question.)

On the opposite face, Kajar Labs was making a fan-project, certainly one that was extensive and times-taking, and had a lot of effort put into it. It was a very well-polished labor of love that was put to sleep simply because it had the cast-and-crew copy-pasted from another project. Granted, that other project was already copyrighted and patented, but still... I feel for them, but I have to give author Sean Sands credit where he's due. It would've behooved Kajar simply to work with a medium that wasn't Chrono Trigger. It would've meant having to build their own system from the ground up, but it makes sense for them to do that to begin with. I feel for them, and especially for the years of work that went into this, but I can't help but feel like this could've been avoided.

One thing I'm going to boggle at in this post are the fans. Never before have I seen a group of people so determined to have a double-standard for fan work in general []. How is it that people who write fan-fics are cretins, but people who do fan-games are the oppressed kind who are too often kicked to the curb in the name of self-absorbed corporate wallets.

Simply put, this was a seemingly good project based on a questionable idea. Also, I'd have to wonder whether or not Squeenix had something like this going on behind the scenes, that still hasn't been aired. Given that Chrono Trigger saw a recent release, it isn't a very large stretch that they did it for a reason.

So sorry, Kajar, but I'm going to have to ultimately side with Squeenix, but with a hearty "Well, that was unnecessary..." note to Squeenix for going about a reasonable action using such unreasonable school-yard bully tactics.


New member
Jun 15, 2008
It wasn't a mod though - as people are trying to point out - they completely altered everything to create a whole new game using the code and art assets from Squares original title - how people can defend them is beyond me, at the end of the day they are taking Squares creations and using them without permission. If I was an artist and I saw someone suing my work without my permission, regardless of profit, I'd be angry.

OT : I reached my 3000th post without even realising...neat...


New member
Feb 23, 2009
D_987 said:
It wasn't a mod though - as people are trying to point out - they completely altered everything to create a whole new game using the code and art assets from Squares original title - how people can defend them is beyond me, at the end of the day they are taking Squares creations and using them without permission. If I was an artist and I saw someone suing my work without my permission, regardless of profit, I'd be angry.

OT : I reached my 3000th post without even realizing...neat...
That I think is where square has the right. The developers used squares code and graphics it is not a fan project written from the ground up with squares name on it. It is a complete copy of the rom with changed story plot etc. etc.

I will say yes it sucks that they spent 4 years on the game only to have a cease and desist order handed to them but it is well within squares rights. As other have said it would be like someone taking the files from any Final Fantasy game changing the story and releasing it unlike mods where you need the original game to play it you do not with this rom game all you need is the rom that they would have distributed.

This is especially pertinent with squares release for the DS. Hopefully square will at least look at what the group had done and maybe work something out with them. But if not that is their decision.


New member
Dec 18, 2008
Cheeze_Pavilion said:
The question if whether those "rights" are appropriate for this day and age regarding a holding corporation.

How can an entity without an intellect hold an intellectual property on the same basis as a natural human being?
I think that it's an insidious idea that because the art, music, and engine for interaction of this game are owned by a group of people collectively rather than by one or two sole creators means that legal protection should be frowned upon. It seems to be neglecting the fact that all of this was originally made by actual people.

If you need 'natural human beings' to sympathise with, then may I reccomend the following:
Producer -
Kazuhiko Aoki

Director -
Takashi Tokita
Yoshinori Kitase
Akihiko Matsui

Character Design -
Akira Toriyama

Supervisor -
Yuji Horii
Hironobu Sakaguchi

Music -
Yasunori Mitsuda
Nobuo Uematsu

Main Program -
Katsuhisa Higuchi
Keizo Kokubo

Sound Program -
Minoru Akao

Sound Engineer -
Eiji Nakamura

Graphic Director -
Masanori Hoshino
Yasuhiko Kamata
Tetsuya Takahashi

Story Plan -
Masato Kato

Event Plan -
Hiroki Chiba
Hiroyuki Itou
Keisuke Matsuhara

Field Plan -
Keita Eto
Kenichi Nishi

Battle Plan -
Haruyuki Nishida
Makoto Shimamoto
Toshiaki Suzuki

Battle Program -
Toshio Endo
Kiyoshi Yoshii

Field Program -
Kazumi Kobayashi

Visual Program -
Ken Narita
Koji Sugimoto

Effect Graphic -
Yukio Nakatani
Hirokatsu Sasaki

Field Graphic -
Shinichiro Hamasaka
Yasuyuki Honne
Matsuzo Itakura
Akiyoshi Masuda
Yusuke Naora
Tetsuya Nomura
Yoshinori Ogura
Shinichiro Okaniwa
Kazuhiro Okawa
Takamichi Shibuya

Character Graphic -
Taizo Inukai
Fumi Nakashima
Hiroshi Uchiyama

Monster Graphic -
Tsutomu Terada

Map Design -
Mami Kawai
Hidetoshi Kezuka

Executive Producer -
Tetsuo Mizuno
Hisashi Suzuki

Sound Effect -
Yoshitaka Hirota
Chiharu Minekawa
Yasuaki Yabuta

This whole situation kind of reminds me of something from my Survey class. "In 1919, Duchamp made a parody of the Mona Lisa by adorning a cheap reproduction of the painting with a mustache and goatee." Taking someone else's artwork, making modifications to it, then passing it off as your own certainly seems like it should be an actionable offense. If the original creator(s) is(are) still alive, they are most likely going to have a strong oppinion about what you do with their work.


New member
May 17, 2009
Hey guys, I've been following this hack and I'm sad that it was shut down :(

I'd just like to point out that there are quite a lot of bad assumptions in this thread. I don't know where this "They wanted to sell their hack" theory comes from. I'm pretty sure they never wanted to. I should know, I had downloaded their previous hack "CT: Prophet's Guile" and no one had ever asked me any money or donation! (it's weird that Square Enix never shut down Prophet's Guile by the way, that hack was totally complete and released by the same website).

Also they weren't distributing ROMs, the patches were Lunar IPS patches, as said on their front page .

In the end, it's a sad news anyway. A lot of people would have played this hack :(

Brett Alex

New member
Jul 22, 2008
Cheeze_Pavilion said:

Western civilization begs to differ on the point that if you don't create something new, you have no creativity.
I don't have much to add to the discussion, since most of its already been covered, so really sorry to nit-pick, but I'd just like to butt in to say thats not necessarily a good example.

Shakespeare did not write Pyramus and Thisbe II: Thisbe Goes to Manhatten.

(But now I think about it, I wish he had)

He wrote Romeo and Juliet. He took an old myth, made it younger and sexier, made the stakes higher, threw in the usual 'set-against-the-backdrop-of-a-world-gonne-madde', fleshed out more character and filled it the goona with his own unique language and storytelling.

Shakespeare, and he is not the first or the last to do so, took influence, inspiration, ideas and sometimes even entire plots from those who'd written before him. But when he did, he almost always mixed them up, added his own style and individuality to it, and he never took works verbatim.
Also, he was writing thousands of years after the original in most cases.