Impeachment 2, the reckoning revenge redemption.

Satinavian

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I am not kissing up to the king, I am noticing something about humanity in general. Name any other civilization besides Ancient Antiquity of Rome and Greece that had a Republic or Democracy.
Peasants Republic of Dithmarschen ?

Half the old Hanseatic league ?

Most Serene Republic of Venice ?

Old Swiss confederacy ?

Republics are a dime a dozen. And most were excatly as corrupt as their more autocratic neighbors. It is a bit more difficult with democracies and depends a bit on how exactly you define those.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.

Sounds like it was more about making sure the impeachment didn't last till next month since the democrats have shit they want to get done.
 

SilentPony

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Sounds like it was more about making sure the impeachment didn't last till next month since the democrats have shit they want to get done.
I mean that and the Republicans threatened to shut down the Government and filibuster every single thing Democrats would try to do for the next 3 years.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I mean that and the Republicans threatened to shut down the Government and filibuster every single thing Democrats would try to do for the next 3 years.
They might try that but they are also worried about the nuclear option of just getting rid of the filibuster. So we shall see.
 

Agema

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Sounds like it was more about making sure the impeachment didn't last till next month since the democrats have shit they want to get done.
Pretty much.

The minute the vote on constitutionality went through, it was clear Trump was home and dry because there was insufficient appetite to convict him amongst Republicans. So a bunch of second-rate lawyers turned up and fumbled and floundered in his defence (even to the evident dismay of Trump's loyal Republicans), and after the perfunctory basics were through, there was no point dragging it out any further.
 

Gethsemani

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The calculation here is simple: McConnell wants Trump to be taken down, but isn't in a million years prepared to be the man to do it, so he's passed the buck. And thus we see in purest form the example of leadership without bravery or moral backbone.
To be fair to McConnell (I feel slightly icky saying that), he's in a pretty impossible position to begin with. One half of his party wants to purge itself of Trump, MAGA and everything related to it and get back to "traditional Republican values" and the other half wants to embrace MAGA and pave the way for Trump 2024. Among the first half there's also a split in how to best divorce the party from Trump between those that want a big, messy public divorce to really drive the purge home and those that want to deal with it in silence and on the downlow. McConnell has to keep all these people happy, he has to placate them because failure to do so would probably fracture the Republican party beyond recovery.

He's absolutely without morals or conviction, but his desire to save the Republican party really leaves him no other option but to be a simpering worm struggling to get out of a pile of fishing hooks.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
They're going to do that anyway. Why try to work with them?
If they do then the nuclear option. Plus democrats like to be bipartisan since you can't count on winning every election and generally bipartisan legislation has a better chance of lasting. Not to mention that the democrats only barely have a majority, thanks two the 2 independents who are on their side for now.
 

SilentPony

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They're going to do that anyway. Why try to work with them?
Democrats, for all their positive traits, are total fucking idiots. They still think the Republicans want a functioning government, still want to help people, and still care about America. And time and again Republicans have just spat in their faces and called them fags for caring about poor people. And yet the Democrats, being the abused spouse that they are, think this time the Republicans mean it, this time they're really going to stop drinking and change and they can get this Government back on track.
 
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ObsidianJones

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Democrats, for all their positive traits, are total fucking idiots. They still think the Republicans want a functioning government, still want to help people, and still care about America. And time and again Republicans have just spat in their faces and called them fags for caring about poor people. And yet the Democrats, being the abused spouse that they are, think this time the Republicans mean it, this time they're really going to stop drinking and change and they can get this Government back on track.
I don't know if that's true.

Again, I've left the party and became a progressive. But I think it's more than that.

Think of the Republicans as J. Jonah Jameson and think of the Corporate Democrats as Spider-man.

The Triple Js have been saying for years how destructive and monstrous the Democrats are. Enough that millions have bought into it, wholesale. And given that we do have a bunch of independents, it isn't like it's just a binary issue. Both the Democrats and the Republicans are still repulsive enough that there is an independent party. And Republicans have showed their asses in the worst way now. All this already happened in America and it isn't even Biden's first month. And with all that's happening, I'm sure everyone looking at the in control Democratic Party and wondering if the other shoe will drop.

So, it's either take the reigns like the Republican Party that just left and look like the monsters they were always labeled by the outgoing administration, or attempt to govern like adults and look... well, pretty much how you see them now.

This is still a game that was set up by the Republicans and Democrats have strict rules to play not to lose.

No I didn't say that as a way of saying "are you referring to me?"

I said it about what I've noticed about you for the past couple of years.
I hear you. And of course, your perception of me is based by what you see and how you interpret it. I welcome your input even if I don't see what you do.

However, you can see that I might have been confused when you stated

I am not kissing up to the king, I am noticing something about humanity in general. Name any other civilization besides Ancient Antiquity of Rome and Greece that had a Republic or Democracy.
I never said you were. In my conversation, I wasn't referring to you at all when I talked about the Field/Negro dynamic. I was talking about people in general as well. As I stated, I was referencing a mentality that, in my opinion, corresponds with your thoughts. When I wasn't referring to you, but an alternative group of people and yet you told me what you are doing (or not doing in this case), my first instinct that there was a miscommunication and I attempted to clear it up.
 
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SilentPony

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The problem is they do lose. They lose all the time, they never win. Because the name of the game isn't to just not be as bad as Republicans say they are, the name of the game is to govern effectively and improve people's lives. And if Democratic goals are so low they simply don't want to be as bad as Republicans think they are, they've already lost. Republicans are saying Heads they win, Tails Democrats lose, and Democrats are just sitting there like "Well I guess we have no choice, lets hope it lands on its side."

This impeachment trial is a prime example. Some Republican senators didn't attend. Jurors refused to attend the trial. Hold them in contempt and expel them. If you or I are a juror and we just walk out of the trial and refuse to participate its a felony. When Republicans do it, its prime time on Fox and Friends hour.
Democrats have volunteered to play by two different sets of rules. They attempt to maintain the veneer of a functional Government, even during Republican leadership for the sake of their donors, and in exchange Republicans will never act as if Democrats are legally elected, everything they do is a crime, rule of law doesn't exist, and Republicans can do whatever they want.
Fuck Marjory Taylor Green says she wants to kill Nancy Pelosi and is allowed to carry a gun onto the floor of Congress, and the response is "Oh that silly lady" meanwhile Van Jones working in the White House is caught saying on a live mic that Republicans lawmakers are assholes, and then Chairman of the Republicans in the House Mike Pence called for a full hearing into Jones' comments, and Jones resigned in disgrace.

If that's no evidence of idiots in the Democrats I don't know what is.
 
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ObsidianJones

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I couldn't disagree more. The name of the game is not that. That's what you and I are for. That's what our community is for. I wouldn't trust a government that was comprised of my very own family to govern effectively and improve people's lives, because people are so varied that what is improvement to one is actual damage to others.

We have a segment of the population applauding the previous administrations laxing of regulations. They are happy with things like this


The article noted that Exelon, one of the nation's largest utilities, told the EPA that its effort to change a rule that has cut emissions of mercury and other toxins is "an action that is entirely unnecessary, unreasonable, and universally opposed by the power generation sector."

It's a striking realization when Trump's Environmental Protection Agency takes a position that is more pro-pollution than the position of polluters themselves.

We saw a similar dynamic nearly a year ago, when some of the world's largest auto manufacturers, whom Trump has tried to help by gutting emission standards, collectively told the administration it was going too far to make polluting easier. The president's agenda, the companies explained in June 2019, was bad for business and created "untenable" manufacturing instability.

And on mercury emissions, it's just as striking, if not more so. Power companies weren't exactly thrilled with the environmental safeguards -- they had the effect of closing several coal plants -- but in time the industry adopted the Obama-era rules, complied with the regulations, and created cleaner conditions. Or as Kathy Robertson, a senior manager for environmental policy at Exelon, told the Post, the status quo "works."
Mercury Emissions are not fun


Exposures to metallic mercury most often occur when metallic mercury is spilled, or when products that contain metallic mercury break, so that mercury is exposed to the air. If you are concerned about your exposure to metallic mercury, you should consult your physician.

Metallic mercury mainly causes health effects when inhaled as a vapor where it can be absorbed through the lungs. Symptoms of prolonged and/or acute exposures include:
  • Tremors;
  • Emotional changes (such as mood swings, irritability, nervousness, excessive shyness);
  • Insomnia;
  • Neuromuscular changes (such as weakness, muscle atrophy, twitching);
  • Headaches;
  • Disturbances in sensations;
  • Changes in nerve responses; and/or
  • Poor performance on tests of mental function.
Higher exposures may also cause kidney effects, respiratory failure and death.

Note that metallic mercury vapor is not the same as methylmercury.
And I can't tell you the number of people here in Florida during the election who kept harping on the talking point of deregulation. They love it. They love that companies can do whatever they want now. The task I put to you is to convince these people that their lives were damned by the Would-Be King. It's the same task people put to Democrats.

Have you taken a look at what Biden's key executive actions has been so far?


Almost everyone of these things I can see helping and enriching American life. Do you know Fox News's slant? I know we all do. Which saves me the trouble of linking it. The fact is, largely what I consider improvements has been signed weeks ago and we're putting them into practice. A Centralist Democrat did that. A president I didn't really want.

Does it make me want to run back into the 'loving' arms of the Democratic party? Hell no. I don't think anything will, and it will be a moot point once I can actually move. But I also have to realize that what I think is the best thing for people, something that will actually improve their lives is completely against what other people who are Americans believe to be the case.

Again, the climate. The Paris Accords are at least a building off point. How does Fox See it?


And how Fox sees it is how a third of all Americans see it. Perhaps it's my low view of Democrats, but I don't see them doing anything that a Fox viewer will consider an improvement to their life.

I'm giving the Dems at least the first full year of anything before I rag on them again. But in fairness, I gave Donald Trump that same year. They definitely have to prove themselves. They'll have plenty of chances. I see failures, I see hope. I see a lot of the old guard, but then I see stuff like what I've seen out of Jamie Raskin and think there's life somewhere in this party. So I'm giving them time to prove there's ability for growth now that they have power.

Not even a full month seems premature.
 
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Samtemdo8

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The problem is they do lose. They lose all the time, they never win. Because the name of the game isn't to just not be as bad as Republicans say they are, the name of the game is to govern effectively and improve people's lives. And if Democratic goals are so low they simply don't want to be as bad as Republicans think they are, they've already lost. Republicans are saying Heads they win, Tails Democrats lose, and Democrats are just sitting there like "Well I guess we have no choice, lets hope it lands on its side."

This impeachment trial is a prime example. Some Republican senators didn't attend. Jurors refused to attend the trial. Hold them in contempt and expel them. If you or I are a juror and we just walk out of the trial and refuse to participate its a felony. When Republicans do it, its prime time on Fox and Friends hour.
Democrats have volunteered to play by two different sets of rules. They attempt to maintain the veneer of a functional Government, even during Republican leadership for the sake of their donors, and in exchange Republicans will never act as if Democrats are legally elected, everything they do is a crime, rule of law doesn't exist, and Republicans can do whatever they want.
Fuck Marjory Taylor Green says she wants to kill Nancy Pelosi and is allowed to carry a gun onto the floor of Congress, and the response is "Oh that silly lady" meanwhile Van Jones working in the White House is caught saying on a live mic that Republicans lawmakers are assholes, and then Chairman of the Republicans in the House Mike Pence called for a full hearing into Jones' comments, and Jones resigned in disgrace.

If that's no evidence of idiots in the Democrats I don't know what is.
Part of me thinks this is a generational thing, because a lot of our politicians are Baby Boomers or even pre-Boomers,

I am curious and dreading the future Generation X/Millennials becoming Politicans.
 

SilentPony

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Part of me thinks this is a generational thing, because a lot of our politicians are Baby Boomers or even pre-Boomers,

I am curious and dreading the future Generation X/Millennials becoming Politicans.
If History is anything to go by, the newer generations are more liberal and accepting. By the time we Millennials are in Congress Gay and trans acceptance will be all but enshrined, and shit like Climate Change will be accepted as science. And double hopefully there won't be so many religious zealots in office. Part of the reason climate change isn't accepted by boomers is the evangelicals believe God is controlling the thermostat and wouldn't let the planet die.
 
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SilentPony

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I couldn't disagree more. The name of the game is not that. That's what you and I are for. That's what our community is for. I wouldn't trust a government that was comprised of my very own family to govern effectively and improve people's lives, because people are so varied that what is improvement to one is actual damage to others.

We have a segment of the population applauding the previous administrations laxing of regulations. They are happy with things like this
But that's the problem, and that's why Democrats lose. Government is supposed to be doing the collective good what communities can't do. Communities didn't build the interstate system, they didn't create the water lines and power grid or build a damn. The Government did. That's what Obama's entire "You didn't build that' campaign was about, the bullshit idea Republicans have that small business and communities need to look after themselves because all the Government can do is fuck shit up.

And Democrats have already lost if we dont even expect basic competency from them. To do the basic function of Government, that being running the Government. Republicans are okay with the Government not being able to function at all, let alone properly. And as a result Democrats try to achieve the standards set by Republicans, when those self same Republicans standards are that the government shouldn't function.