In defence of the Escapist - from a contributor.

Cenequus

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MiracleOfSound said:
Cenequus said:
Still don't see the reason to open a thread to support either EC or escapist(not as a random poster i mean) unless you know more than it is officially out.

Making a crazy example: let's say things go great with Bioware and the release of your album and escapist asks for 75% so it can support your escapist publishing.
That kind of stuff is avoided by being careful when you sign contracts. that's all I'm going to say about that.

Also, that would never happen
Great so I assume EC made an awfull contract since they don't own their IP. That wouldn't mean automatically they are right or wrong but they would still be victims. Never liked this thing about it's the victims fault for...not reading contract/beeing at the wrong place at the wrong time etc kind of excuses.
 

TornadoFive

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I really hope that's all it is, just a breakdown of communication. Both sides of this debate (Escapist and Extra Credits) have done a lot for each other over the past year.

Extra Credits is one of the top features on this site, and brought in a lot of people for the Escapist.

The Escapist has given Extra Credits a bit of standing. It's all very well, saying you make videos on your own website, or for youtube. But saying you're employed by a professional website to do so, gives you a bit more respect.

Like I said, I really hope this can be resolved quickly and amicably. In any case, both sides are coming out of this with a lot less than they went into it.
 

Cenequus

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TornadoFive said:
I really hope that's all it is, just a breakdown of communication. Both sides of this debate (Escapist and Extra Credits) have done a lot for each other over the past year.

Extra Credits is one of the top features on this site, and brought in a lot of people for the Escapist.

The Escapist has given Extra Credits a bit of standing. It's all very well, saying you make videos on your own website, or for youtube. But saying you're employed by a professional website to do so, gives you a bit more respect.

Like I said, I really hope this can be resolved quickly and amicably. In any case, both sides are coming out of this with a lot less than they went into it.
Well if parting ways means it's resolved then yes. As far as I know escapist released EC last friday since EC couldn't break down the contract.
 

TornadoFive

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Cenequus said:
TornadoFive said:
I really hope that's all it is, just a breakdown of communication. Both sides of this debate (Escapist and Extra Credits) have done a lot for each other over the past year.

Extra Credits is one of the top features on this site, and brought in a lot of people for the Escapist.

The Escapist has given Extra Credits a bit of standing. It's all very well, saying you make videos on your own website, or for youtube. But saying you're employed by a professional website to do so, gives you a bit more respect.

Like I said, I really hope this can be resolved quickly and amicably. In any case, both sides are coming out of this with a lot less than they went into it.
Well if parting ways means it's resolved then yes. As far as I know escapist released EC last friday since EC couldn't break down the contract.
That's it not resolved though. There's still the matter of the IP, the debt's both sides are claiming they other side owes and the donation money for Allison.

EC may have decided to leave the Escapist, or the Escapist fired them, I don't know. But this isn't over.
 

MiracleOfSound

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Cenequus said:
Great so I assume EC made an awfull contract since they don't own their IP. That wouldn't mean automatically they are right or wrong but they would still be victims. Never liked this thing about it's the victims fault for...not reading contract/beeing at the wrong place at the wrong time etc kind of excuses.
Well, I kinda agree with your sentiment but none of us know what happened in their contract, I was just replying to your question in regards to what would happen in a hypothetical situation with me. Anyway, it's a dodgy topic that I'm not comfortable discussing in detail, not because I don't want to but because contracts are private affairs!

That's why I think we all need to wait till we have the facts to make any judgements.
 

Cenequus

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TornadoFive said:
Cenequus said:
TornadoFive said:
I really hope that's all it is, just a breakdown of communication. Both sides of this debate (Escapist and Extra Credits) have done a lot for each other over the past year.

Extra Credits is one of the top features on this site, and brought in a lot of people for the Escapist.

The Escapist has given Extra Credits a bit of standing. It's all very well, saying you make videos on your own website, or for youtube. But saying you're employed by a professional website to do so, gives you a bit more respect.

Like I said, I really hope this can be resolved quickly and amicably. In any case, both sides are coming out of this with a lot less than they went into it.
Well if parting ways means it's resolved then yes. As far as I know escapist released EC last friday since EC couldn't break down the contract.
That's it not resolved though. There's still the matter of the IP, the debt's both sides are claiming they other side owes and the donation money for Allison.

EC may have decided to leave the Escapist, or the Escapist fired them, I don't know. But this isn't over.
As any IP dispute it will only be solved in court, also I doubt EC has any solid case if they had a really weak contract as it seems. I doubt people watched it because of the name and as a product it's after all an animated vlog. I doubt you can stop people doing those.

MiracleOfSound said:
Well, I kinda agree with your sentiment but none of us know what happened in their contract, I was just replying to your question in regards to what would happen in a hypothetical situation with me. Anyway, it's a dodgy topic that I'm not comfortable discussing in detail, not because I don't want to but because contracts are private affairs!

That's why I think we all need to wait till we have the facts to make any judgements.
Totally agree,that was kinda my original point,there was no reason to support one or another officially unless you know more.
 

GeorgW

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That's great to hear, thanks for that Gav!
Hopefully this can all be resolved in a mature manner, and I hope EC stays here.
 

GrizzlerBorno

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MiracleOfSound said:
Thanks for reading,

Gav (Miracle Of Sound)

First of all, Congrats on the Gamescom deal, Gav! Getting to work with Bioware? You lucky bastard, you. Well...not lucky exactly, cause you've completely earned it.

OT: Here's where the problem arises, as far as I can tell, after reading through all of the stuff extensively:

According to one Alexander Macris, James Portnow once said

I really don't want to squeeze you guys if you're in a crunch, so you can put us to the bottom of the list for right now...
James has tried to distance himself from that comment, but I'm actually willing to believe Macris on this.

Then last month he just suddenly asked for cash hoping for it to materialize out of nowhere. I can't really fault James much for this because, to be honest, I don't think Macris should've taken the former's word so literally (and not send ANY money to EC at all). James was just being accommodating and nice, NOT asking not to be paid at all.

Then there's' the whole RocketHub debacle, and that just all happened because they didn't sit down and have a proper talk about what to do with leftover cash. I personally side with the Escpaist's request for EC to use that money to support the show while they find enough cash to cover the debt themselves. But again, they should've made that clear to EC at the outset.

Long story short, I agree with Miracle of Sound in that, all of this is due to several levels of huge communication failures, that could've been avoided. Conversely I think that the situation CAN be resolved, so that we get our EC back, and I, for one, think that's what we all really want.
 

JET1971

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MiracleOfSound said:
My opinion on the situation in question is that neither side is inherently bad or to blame, but that there has been a massive communication breakdown somewhere down the line.

I certainly do not believe in airing personal disputes on Twitter or in any other public forum, I do not believe in torches and pitchforks and I feel like we would all do well to avoid knee-jerk reactions.
As much as I would like to call out The Escapist for not paying James and company promptly I just cant see how The Escapist is completly at fault here. Its like blaming a boy for getting a girl pregnant. Takes 2 to tango, she spread her legs so its also her fault. In the case of EC they allowed non payment or late payment for a year. that makes them equaly responsible for this issue.

I do however have some serious issues with James' profesionalism in this matter, and I also find him at fault for making it a 3 ring circus. That blame cannot be laid on the shoulders of The Escapist because it was completly James' doing. There is no reason at all to make public statements about a dispute of this nature and in doing so credibility is lost.

The issue of the extra money from the fundraiser for Allison and to keep EC going I find to be fraudulant. I did not donate money so James and the other EC people could start a non profit publishing company. and yes it is a company! I donated so Allison could get her surgery and EC can keep going as it was clearly stated at the time I donated. nothing but that. My EC T-shirt will be going right into the trash. I also feel that he planned all along to use the extra money to start a publishing company and starting this 3 ring circus was a way to get advertisement for it. For those reasons James and the rest of the EC crew can go fuck themselves.
 

tklivory

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JET1971 said:
I donated so Allison could get her surgery and EC can keep going as it was clearly stated at the time I donated. nothing but that.
I feel this needs to be emphasized. I, like many, many contributors gave money to pay for Allison's medical costs and keep EC going during her absence. The usage of the money as James has announced is, though laudable, a misdirection of those funds. If he had started a fund on Rockethub that stipulated that it was for indie game devs, I would have contributed to that - separately.

It must be said: there is no good guy/bad guy/Kotick here. There are, on the main, good people who have made mistakes/misjudgements/whopping horrible communication errors, yes. But there's not anyone in the background rubbing their hands in glee because they 'got ahead' or 'won'. I was very disappointed in James at the outset for the manner in which he started this whole debacle. (Seriously, James? Social media? Oy.) When I read his initial post, I didn't read it as 'OMG, teh Escapist is ebul!' Instead, after reading it, I thought, "This man is aware that he is speaking to a crowd of compassionate people who are very passionate about what they believe in, and he is telling his side so that they will support him." In other words, I felt manipulated. I read Alexander's response, and felt the same thing (though he tried to use logic/reason rather than emotion).

I have worked unpaid (often for long stretches at a time). I have worked for companies that promised and didn't deliver as well as those that were honest about not being able to deliver. And yet, for a myriad of reasons, I continued to work in those companies after not getting paid, for reasons completely unrelated to money. In those same companies, I saw people leave when it was announced that we wouldn't get paid. I respected them because they left without a fuss when the announcement was made. I also saw some people work unpaid, knowing full well that they were getting unpaid, knowing that there was no clear date as to when they would get paid, then leave and sue because they weren't getting paid. That, I had no respect for. I still have one former employer (who I parted ways with amicably) that owes me over $30,000. I do not ever expect to see that money, but technically it is owed me in back wages (and this was after taking a 'pay cut', mind, so in real wages it should be far greater). Do I regret working for them? No. They were honest with me the whole time I worked there, and I continued to work there for other reasons (obviously) than for pay.

Also, there are *legal* aspects about how a company may dispense their revenue. I'm not sure of the order, but I know that employees (i.e., the guy who works on the servers) legally *must* be paid before contractors (i.e., the contributors) according to California law (having been on both sides of that revenue stream myself). I'm not sure where bills/vendors come in, but I'm pretty sure that the bills need to be paid before either employees or contractors, or *no* revenue will be coming in (no electricity, no servers, no more money *at all*).

TL;DR version:
1) Both sides have flamingoed up (like a cock up but worse).
2) Not getting paid is bad, but not the end of the world, and is only one aspect of why someone should stay in a job.
3) Anyone who compares this situation in any way to WWII is an AW of the first order with no sense of taste or discretion
4) Thank you, Gav, for being reasonable. I'm sorry you are getting attacked for being honest.
 

MiracleOfSound

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tklivory said:
4) Thank you, Gav, for being reasonable. I'm sorry you are getting attacked for being honest.
Nah, I'm ok with it. You gotta expect it on the internet.

Some people aren't happy unless they think they're uncovering an imaginary conspiracy theory.