In defence of the 'Friendzoned'

[Random berk]

There is no such thing as friendzoned . People need to man up and stop being afraid of rejection. Ask a girl out . 50/50 chance she says yes . If she says no , move on. How is this so hard? I swear i have never heard so much "friendzone" talk, than on this site . Guys are turning into wimps.

I met a girl a short time back who I became instantly attracted to, and who I know was at least some bit attracted to me. I asked her out on the first night, and we spent the next month together, after which time I had to leave the country for a period of time (I'm doing an MSc lasting a year, but I can get back home once a month or so, not exactly an extended tour of duty) She then said that although she wanted to still hang out with me whenever I was back home, she only wanted to be friends and that she wanted to meet other men. I was completely opposed to this idea and wanted to maintain the relationship if she would only wait a short time between return trips (and it isn't unreasonable, my first gf and I lived in different counties, had much longer times apart than this and still had a long and happy relationship for our age), but short of getting agitated about it and giving her a better reason to end it, I could only let her have her way.

So now I'm here with one less reason to go home, she's doing her own MSc at home, happy in the company of whoever else she wants, but it's ok because we're just 'friends' now. Is this not basically a friendzone situation?

I don't think that counts because you actually had the girl . Not for a long time because of circumstances. From what i understand, you asked her out , she said yes, then spent the next month seeing each other . From what i gathered about the subject that doesn't count ( i could be wrong though).

Seems to me like it's as close to the definition of the friendzone as you can get. The attraction is there on both sides, so no just unrequited love/attraction. I did have the guts to ask her out and follow through, thank you very much, so it had nothing to do with me just being too much of a wimp to make the effort. And I didn't do anything to upset her, or prove myself to be no fun to hang around with, so it wasn't a bog standard break up either. The whole thing had all the makings of a good relationship, but in the end, because I couldn't be around all the time, for a relatively short period of time, she decided that she'd go after other people and that I could simply make do with being friends with her. If there was never mutual affection there then it'd be understandable, but this just seemed cruel to me, given that she knows full well how I feel and yet is completely disregarding that because she can get her kicks elsewhere, on a slightly more regular basis than I can offer.

 

[Frankster]

There is no such thing as friendzoned . People need to man up and stop being afraid of rejection. Ask a girl out . 50/50 chance she says yes . If she says no , move on. How is this so hard? I swear i have never heard so much "friendzone" talk, than on this site . Guys are turning into wimps.

I despise the friendzone concept and see it as an invention, a metaphorical cage whose only existence is to justify self prophecizing failures or to give a comforting explanation to repeated "defeats" and a spiral of awkward behavior leading nowhere. So we both agree it's a myth.

But even then i'm somewhat disturbed by your lack of empathy or inability to relate to people with emotionally charged situations that you don't share.

I'd dread to see you work as a psychologist and having to treat people with social anxiety or other behavioral problems like this, youd just tell each of them to "man the fuck up" i imagine xD

 

[senordesol]

I just don't get the...well...the claims that the 'Friendzone' doesn't exist.

For far as I can tell, it's just modern parlance for the phrase 'unrequiteded love'. You care about someone, you're happy when you're around them, you miss them when they're gone, you make excusses to spend as much time as possible with them; you want to take it further, but they don't. So far as they're concerned; you're a friend and nothing more.

I see nothing predatory or dehumanizing about being sad and frustrated about that.

Nothing is wrong with feeling upset about rejection, its natural, its mainly because we have assholes online who complain about it and act like misogynistic morons (nice guys claiming women only go for assholes and the like)

I remember this thing where some guy tried to start a campaign to make friend-zoning illegal, so women couldn't reject a guy who was nice to her, that is pretty sick in itself, but it actually got support from other guys, which is crazy.

Dafuq? When...what? I...can't even...

Hoookaaay....yeah. That is some fucked up shit right there.

Being jealous of a romantic rival is natural, sure. And you're going to focus more on their (perceived) faults than she is -I get that. But for serious? Seriously?

Alright, now I understand why there's a perception that people who claim they're in the Friendzone have a false sense entitlement because that's the very definition right there, isn't it?

All I have to say to that is: not everyone in a state of unrequited love handles it so...poorly. I've loved two women who were my friends. With one: nothing came of it. With the other: she eventually came around and went and married me. In neither case did I believe they owed me a shot; I just worked for one.

 

[pointless vandalism]

"Friendzoned" is a term for weak willed men who lack the confidence and sexual prowess to motivate women to want them. Period. Plain and simple. Stop your internal dialog. If you get friendzoned a lot, you're bad at getting women. Deal. With. It.

 

[Dr. Thrax]

I'm sorry, guys of the planet, rejection sucks.
But until you experience what it's like to be a gay man wanting to date but can't because every guy you crush on is straight (And you live in, and attend school in, a predominately homophobic area), and therefore know that he will never ever ever in hell return those feelings for you no matter what you do, you can grow some balls and get over it.

 

[Random berk]

"Friendzoned" is a term for weak willed men who lack the confidence and sexual prowess to motivate women to want them. Period. Plain and simple. Stop your internal dialog. If you get friendzoned a lot, you're bad at getting women. Deal. With. It.

Aand I refer you back to this:

Spoiler: conversation

There is no such thing as friendzoned . People need to man up and stop being afraid of rejection. Ask a girl out . 50/50 chance she says yes . If she says no , move on. How is this so hard? I swear i have never heard so much "friendzone" talk, than on this site . Guys are turning into wimps.

I met a girl a short time back who I became instantly attracted to, and who I know was at least some bit attracted to me. I asked her out on the first night, and we spent the next month together, after which time I had to leave the country for a period of time (I'm doing an MSc lasting a year, but I can get back home once a month or so, not exactly an extended tour of duty) She then said that although she wanted to still hang out with me whenever I was back home, she only wanted to be friends and that she wanted to meet other men. I was completely opposed to this idea and wanted to maintain the relationship if she would only wait a short time between return trips (and it isn't unreasonable, my first gf and I lived in different counties, had much longer times apart than this and still had a long and happy relationship for our age), but short of getting agitated about it and giving her a better reason to end it, I could only let her have her way.

So now I'm here with one less reason to go home, she's doing her own MSc at home, happy in the company of whoever else she wants, but it's ok because we're just 'friends' now. Is this not basically a friendzone situation?

I don't think that counts because you actually had the girl . Not for a long time because of circumstances. From what i understand, you asked her out , she said yes, then spent the next month seeing each other . From what i gathered about the subject that doesn't count ( i could be wrong though).

Seems to me like it's as close to the definition of the friendzone as you can get. The attraction is there on both sides, so no just unrequited love/attraction. I did have the guts to ask her out and follow through, thank you very much, so it had nothing to do with me just being too much of a wimp to make the effort. And I didn't do anything to upset her, or prove myself to be no fun to hang around with, so it wasn't a bog standard break up either. The whole thing had all the makings of a good relationship, but in the end, because I couldn't be around all the time, for a relatively short period of time, she decided that she'd go after other people and that I could simply make do with being friends with her. If there was never mutual affection there then it'd be understandable, but this just seemed cruel to me, given that she knows full well how I feel and yet is completely disregarding that because she can get her kicks elsewhere, on a slightly more regular basis than I can offer.

Just because it isn't your exact experience doesn't mean it isn't a thing. This may the case with some people. Actually, of course it is. But not for everyone, all the time. Don't be so dismissive, or tar everyone with the same brush.

There is no such thing as friendzoned .

This right here is the only problem I have with arguments against.

Short of Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny, any time you say "There is no such thing," you are almost certainly wrong, especially in terms of social situations.

With 6 [i/]billion[/i] people on Earth, it's downright silly for anyone to think they can speak for every interaction between every man and woman around the world.

Men take advantage of women, women take advantage of men.

Perspective, people. Perspective.

Just as Mr. Connery here states, there are too many possible scenarios out there for such a narrow view as the one you just gave to cover more than a fraction of them.

 

[Moloch Sacrifice]

The way I see it, if a person *genuinely* likes me, they will do all of that shit (spending time with me, listening to me rant, etcetcetc) because that is it's own reward. They won't expect anything in return, be it sex or a relationship.

I appreciate I might be missing some context, but what you are describing seems like a very manipulative relationship. All human interaction, regardless of being romantic or not, relies on a two way exchange; you give something, and they give something back. If you believe that doing things for someone without any expectation of return because they 'like' them is an example of healthy human interaction then I am afraid do not agree with you.

I'm not defending people that cry friendzone when things don't go their way, I like to laugh at them all the same. But becoming friends with someone with a predetermined ulterior motive makes anyone a shit bag.

So where do people who lack the confidence to make a romantic move off the bat fit in this assessment? There are many people who feel they need to become close to someone before they feel capable of approaching them romantically; similarly, without the knowledge of a person that friendship brings, it can be difficult to make a sound judgement on a person's character. I believe you are taking a somewhat black and white view, when (as always) there is a grey area.

 

[K12]

The reason that "friendzone" is considered dodgy because of the framing of the situation.

Being "friendzoned" implies that it is the girl who is at fault for not offering up sex. People who talk about the friendzone as as place they accidentally landed themselves in (through their own low confidence, anxiety and awkwardness) is something I'm on board with.

There's often the implication of "who the fuck wants friends I wanted some god damn poontang!" in friendzone talk but if you don't make that assumption then fine, use it.

 

[Thaluikhain]

There is no such thing as friendzoned .

This right here is the only problem I have with arguments against.

Short of Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny, any time you say "There is no such thing," you are almost certainly wrong, especially in terms of social situations.

With 6 [i/]billion[/i] people on Earth, it's downright silly for anyone to think they can speak for every interaction between every man and woman around the world.

Men take advantage of women, women take advantage of men.

Perspective, people. Perspective.

Er, in most Western societies, it's at least nominally recognised that a woman isn't obliged to fall in love with/have sex with any random man who happens to be nice to her. Given that this is the basis of the friendzone (at least in that definition), the whole concept falls over.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

You know, I think a great deal of the issues with the term 'friendzone' are two factions are completely and totally vehement of what the term means, and will not accept any other idea.

Party A believes it means that a certain individual did everything they could to be buddy-buddy up to another individual in beliefs that being kind and nice to them will earn sexual interest.

Party B believes it means a term where the recipient of affection uses the blanket term of 'friend' instead of stating where the lack of interest really lies in order to make things less messy.

When I ever used or heard the term friendzone, it was usually in Party B. I've never met a person who felt just because that person was nice to someone, they earned a trip to Pantstown. But I'm sure people believe that or have seen it happen.

 

[krazykidd]

There is no such thing as friendzoned . People need to man up and stop being afraid of rejection. Ask a girl out . 50/50 chance she says yes . If she says no , move on. How is this so hard? I swear i have never heard so much "friendzone" talk, than on this site . Guys are turning into wimps.

I despise the friendzone concept and see it as an invention, a metaphorical cage whose only existence is to justify self prophecizing failures or to give a comforting explanation to repeated "defeats" and a spiral of awkward behavior leading nowhere. So we both agree it's a myth.

But even then i'm somewhat disturbed by your lack of empathy or inability to relate to people with emotionally charged situations that you don't share.

I'd dread to see you work as a psychologist and having to treat people with social anxiety or other behavioral problems like this, youd just tell each of them to "man the fuck up" i imagine xD

I'm no physchogist , worry not. But i thought social anxiety was the exception not the rule. I wouldn't tell someone who's depressed "to get over it". However , i wasn't under the impression that social anxiety was so common . Yes it exists , and those people need to work on their social issues , but i don't think everyone who screams " friendzone" have social anxiety . Those who do are excused.

What i find more alarming are the people who are so easily infatuated to the point that rejection from a girl,makes them lose their shit.

Off-topic: is social anxiety considered a disorder? And is there anything people can do about it?

 

[Random berk]

Off-topic: is social anxiety considered a disorder? And is there anything people can do about it?

It can probably be linked to disorders such as Asperger's Syndrome, or other conditions that people just have low self esteem because of it. Alternatively it could be as a result of lots of past personal issues that have nothing to do with such conditions. Certainly, there is a lot that you can do to overcome it if you make the effort. I have AS, and got a lot of shit from people in primary and secondary school. Never really had friends, until I made a conscious effort to identify my issues and overcome them in college which did me a world of good, even though I still have a degree of anxiety that gets better or worse seemingly from day to day. However, for a lot of people who may have had much worse shit happen in their past, or who just have very low self esteem (or in some cases a lack of drive to get past their old issues, probably) doing something about it can be a lot harder, or even impossible if they don't have a lot of support. Social anxiety on some level is probably quite a widespread issue actually, though the severity and causes would be so varied that it probably doesn't make sense to look at it as a single trait that applies to all those people.

 

[Atmos Duality]

"Entitlement" has now been applied to "relationships".
Thanks for that, I needed a good laugh.

Oh, and "Friendzone" isn't just limited to girls turning down guys for long term relationships.
Guys can, and have done it to girls too and for reasons beyond the stereotypical "trophy-fuck-chasing bro-douche".

Men take advantage of women, women take advantage of men.

Perspective, people. Perspective.

Edit: Also, the arguments for and against are fairly dumb anyway as the word is so incredibly loosely defined, most people aren't even arguing over the same topic.

Oh, hey! Sensibility!
And yes, just about every argument-counter-argument I've seen on the concept of the existence of "friendzone" amounts to a whole bunch of "Moving the Goalposts" fallacies.

 

[Moosemade]

I've been using variations of the term "friend zone" for years, and it's also worth noting that I think I'm a tad older than this new "generation" of "friend zoners" (quotation marks!) My usage has always been what many above have defined: a friend who has developed feelings for another friend, and who has, in some form or another (always direct) suggested moving into a romantic, rather than platonic direction and had their suggestion shot down. This has happened to me more often that I'd like to admit, but generally I remain friends with the woman, unless of course the relationship becomes toxic (such as her using me for emotional intimacy because her current squeeze is emotionally unavailable).

In almost all of the cases I do not blame her. I'd usually blame myself for whatever shortcoming may be applicable. This is not a good thing at all, and thankfully I've grown out of it (mostly). Do I become bitter? In some cases. However, this is not the type of bitterness that warps my views into anything horrible. Unless you count the realization that women can be as shallow as men sometimes as something horrible.

One of the reasons I think I keep "falling into the Friend Zone" is that for me, attraction is rarely entirely physical. A good portion of it is emotional and mental. And the only way you can uncover those attributes is by spending time with someone, which generally develops into a friendship. By then, that classic line of "I think we should just be friends" is fairly valid. But you know what? You freaking deal with it. You think you love her/him? Well, it takes two to tango, and if they aren't returning the feelings, it isn't actual love (in my mind, at least). And let's face it, trying to make them love you like you're in some stupid romcom isn't going to work. It either happens or it doesn't. The sexual legos either click or they don't.

Now, this bastardization of a term I was using before some of these people were alive IS vile, disgusting, and stupid. It reduces another human being into nothing more than an objective that can be achieved by meeting a set of conditions, as if this were a video game, specifically a dating sim. And dating sims are about as accurate depiction of real life as its potential mates are an accurate depiction of women.

So now I've found myself not using the term, as it's picked up negative connotations. It's probably for the best, as it was a rather reductive term. However, to all those who say that the Friend Zone doesn't exist, I counter with this: it was a term I used to refer to a specific event or circumstance. By saying that it doesn't exist is the same as saying eclipses, an engine overheating, or something shattering does not exist. It is a collection of sounds that I use to describe something that happened. That's it. Our definitions may differ, and your definition may indeed not exist in the real world, but MY definition does exist in the real world.

 

[senordesol]

There is no such thing as friendzoned . People need to man up and stop being afraid of rejection. Ask a girl out . 50/50 chance she says yes . If she says no , move on. How is this so hard? I swear i have never heard so much "friendzone" talk, than on this site . Guys are turning into wimps.

I despise the friendzone concept and see it as an invention, a metaphorical cage whose only existence is to justify self prophecizing failures or to give a comforting explanation to repeated "defeats" and a spiral of awkward behavior leading nowhere. So we both agree it's a myth.

But even then i'm somewhat disturbed by your lack of empathy or inability to relate to people with emotionally charged situations that you don't share.

I'd dread to see you work as a psychologist and having to treat people with social anxiety or other behavioral problems like this, youd just tell each of them to "man the fuck up" i imagine xD

I'm no physchogist , worry not. But i thought social anxiety was the exception not the rule. I wouldn't tell someone who's depressed "to get over it". However , i wasn't under the impression that social anxiety was so common . Yes it exists , and those people need to work on their social issues , but i don't think everyone who screams " friendzone" have social anxiety . Those who do are excused.

What i find more alarming are the people who are so easily infatuated to the point that rejection from a girl,makes them lose their shit.

Off-topic: is social anxiety considered a disorder? And is there anything people can do about it?

Social Anxiety Disorder: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_anxiety_disorder

Further, I wouldn't consider it alarming that one can become strongly 'attached' to another person. I'd be devastated if my best friend died tomorrow, after all. But returning to the subject: strong emotional attachment to an object of attraction seems to me to be a natural precursor to a successful relationship (if one were going to occur). Also keep in mind: this attachment may not be 'easy' as you seem to characterize it. It can develop over months or even years of extended interaction to the point where they become a part of your daily schedule; such a status can't be claimed by just anyone.

An involuntary chemical reaction in your brain is occurring when they're around. Initially these might just be physiological reactions as a part of basic attraction, but in time more emotional reactions might be provoked. It is for these same reasons that a certain smell might elicit feelings of nostalgia. As such, one will continue to seek the satisfaction of those emotional needs by spending as much time as possible with the person to whom they've become attached, and will be reticent to risk the permanent elimination of that chemical reaction should an unwanted advance be spurned.

 

[Moloch Sacrifice]

The way I see it, if a person *genuinely* likes me, they will do all of that shit (spending time with me, listening to me rant, etcetcetc) because that is it's own reward. They won't expect anything in return, be it sex or a relationship.

I appreciate I might be missing some context, but what you are describing seems like a very manipulative relationship. All human interaction, regardless of being romantic or not, relies on a two way exchange; you give something, and they give something back. If you believe that doing things for someone without any expectation of return because they 'like' them is an example of healthy human interaction then I am afraid do not agree with you.

Yes, actually is an example of healthy human interaction. They're people you like, so you do stuff for them. It's not necessarily one sided, presumably for one party to like the other the liked party ought to be nice to the other one. If they aren't then the problem is why the like someone who isn't nice to them.

It's the latter example you give that is what concerned me. Arkenangel's post seemed to imply that there should be no expectation of return whatsoever (be it material, romantic interest, or even compassion) even though the other person is clearly making contributions (moral support during a rant, for example). I did not mean to imply that it has to be a tangible return; As you said, the could receive compassion and kindness back as well.

 

[QuiB25]

Yeah, the whole "so you think just because you're nice you are owed sex?" line never really rang true with me. It's not that you're pretending to be her friend either. Often the issue is you're such good friends that you fear giving up that side of the relationship because you tried to change the nature of it. Not to mention how other friends of hers are going to react. The fear of being ostracised from potentially a whole friendship group is pretty bad. I don't think it's necessarily rejection that is the fear, but more the loss of friendship. That's certainly how I've felt about it, just not wanting to fuck up a good thing.

This. Though, it's hard to see why a girl would choose to be friends that passive aggressively whine about it afterwords. The friend zone might be real, but it's not a phrase that anyone should be defending. It places the action on the one doing the rejecting, and it's not a stretch to say it's the girl's fault from that perspective.

Some guys/girls just don't understand the dynamics of a friend group. They force the other person's hand. It's their fault for fucking up a perfectly good friendship, especially since there really aren't enough of em as is.