In Defense of Final Fantasy XIII

[Gatx]

There's a reason for that, though: Final Fantasy XIII wasn't really an RPG. Nor did it ever want to be.

What? You mean it's unreasonable to assume that the thirteenth installment in one of the most famous series of RPGs in gaming ISN'T meant to be an RPG?

This reminds of when Tommy Wiseau went back and claimed that his atrocity of a movie (The Room) was was actually meant as a "comedy", when the tone clearly isn't intentionally humorous at all.

To me, the Final Fantasy series, past one at least, has only been an RPG in mechanics only, that is to say the stats and combat and what not. I don't know if you've noticed but you don't actually do any "role-playing" in them, you just play out a pretty linear plot.

The newest Extra Credits talks about how JRPGs and Western RPGs could possibly be considered different genres, with JRPGs being focused on narratives, so I can kind of see the reasoning behind the direction FFXIII took, cutting out a lot of RPG fluff to focus on a core narrative.

 

[Tiamattt]

I didn't find the game/story itself confusing at all, and I never got the whole "it doesn't feel like a FF" idea. To SE's credit they do try to mix up the formula for all the FFs so they don't play like each other, so gameplay wise it's kinda hard to make a complaint about 13 playing different from the rest of the FFs when that's exactly what they were going for with every game. There are plenty of other things worth complaining about in FF13, but trying to be different isn't one of them.

 

[Jeff Dunn]

guy...change is fine. A boring, vapid game isn't. You're defending the OJ of games

LOL'd. Resisting the urge to make an OJ joke now.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

You know, this article clarifies something that's been bothering me for a while.

I loved FF 13. I thought it told a great story - I hated Hope and Snow at the outset, but watching them grow and change as people made me care about them, something I did not expect at the start of the game.

I loved that FF 13 tried something new and different. I didn't even mind the linear levels (just look at FF 10! It was nothing but linear paths! Why love 10 and hate 13?).

I've never really been able to place what I liked - and everyone else hated - about FF 13, but I think I have now. I wanted something different, and I got what I asked for. And I loved it.

 

[Furrama]

Since this is a JRPG and is a very story driven linear game, (which I like more than open world but that's me), one MUST like the characters and the story. This is the one time where the gameplay is second fiddle, though it must be a decent fiddle. Story and characters are king. This FF has characters I just can't like... save Fang. Oh things pick up later, but it's soooooo many hours in that it can't make up for it. There is too much whining, too much "why would you do that?" stuff going on. (Part of me has this theory that FF hasn't been able to do well since voice acting in video games happened. Things sound less stupid when you read them than if you hear them out loud.)

It's a game I want to like but don't. I want more good stories, memorable characters. I do miss real turn based combat, (which I haven't seen since FFX), but that isn't a deal breaker. While I like my "Pokemon" style chess fix I am more than happy to experiment. Give me a good story and a game system that just bearly works and I'll have the best time ever.

 

[Jeff Dunn]

You know, this article clarifies something that's been bothering me for a while.

I loved FF 13. I thought it told a great story - I hated Hope and Snow at the outset, but watching them grow and change as people made me care about them, something I did not expect at the start of the game.

I loved that FF 13 tried something new and different. I didn't even mind the linear levels (just look at FF 10! It was nothing but linear paths! Why love 10 and hate 13?).

I've never really been able to place what I liked - and everyone else hated - about FF 13, but I think I have now. I wanted something different, and I got what I asked for. And I loved it.

Glad I could be of service then, my friend.

 

[Lord_Jaroh]

I'm playing through FFXIII right now. I've "forced" my way to chapter 13 and I'm a chunk of the way through it now.

I'm sorry. If FFXIII were renamed anything different, it would still be a terrible, terrible game, and not one that would be "praised for it's evolution of JRPGs".

My faults with FFXIII:

1. Story - The story as played out in the gameplay is nonsensical. That I have to read datalogs to figure out what the hell is going on is not an evolution in any way, shape or form.

2. Linearity - This wouldn't be AS bad if the story were any sort of decent (so you had something to drive you further). Instead the linearity stands out like a sore thumb because all there is is moving forwards on screen and nothing comes of it.

3. Gameplay - It is luck based rather than skill based because you can't really control your character's actions. You "sort of" have control over your leader's actions. I say sort of because the game's pace plays too fast to really let you have any control. If you direct your actions, you will play poorer because of it. Your party...beyond the lackluster AI scripting of the paradigms, they control themselves, and you have no input in how they play.

4. Monster design and layout - The monsters are very unremarkable, and also very samey. It seems to stand out more than the early Final Fantasy's palette swaps for some reason. Considering the game is all about the combat (as there is nothing else redeeming in the game), making the monsters unique should have been paramount. As well, when I run through an area, the monsters respawn in exactly the same spots, with the same numbers and types...why? Why not change it up so that the monsters can be in different locations with different group makeups when you re-tread down a path?

5. Characters - Flat and uninspired. This is also due to the story being told through the datalogs rather than on screen where you see them, but they really stood out as being caricatures rather than people, with over-the-top actions and dialogue that makes no sense.

6. The Tutorial - It was so slowly paced from beginning right to end.

7. Unintuitive and/or clumsy systems - The Weapon/Accessory upgrading. The Crystarium Levelling. Not being able to save Paradigms when changing team members.

8. The Grind - Now this is something that I could just "see" being terrible. I will say that I didn't grind at all. I've been playing the game from start to finish with minimal "killing to earn experience/gold". Hell, I didn't even do all of the hunting quests (mainly due to the boring running). The pacing for the game is "okay" so far. What is terrible is that if you want to upgrade things in this game the amount of grinding you would need to do just to get money. There are youtube videos on how to earn money in the game efficiently, so that it ONLY takes you hours to earn the necessary money to upgrade one weapon! And this is monotonously fighting the same enemies over and over again...

9. The Cutscenes - Wow, are there a lot of them, and wow are there tons that add nothing to the game character or story! I can see why they let you finally skip them (and why this was received as such a "good" thing...)

10. The World Layout - Running down a long monster-less and featureless corridor after finishing a cutscene to another cutscene (with no interruptions! Literally, I leave a cutscene, walk down a hallway, with no opportunity to interact with anything in the world to another cutscene. And this happens often!).

11. Inconsistent - From walking down a hallway to find a "jump point" to leap over an obstacle to finding another area that doesn't have a jump point, yet I still leap over an obstacle.

12. Things don't make sense within the context of the game world - Why are there "treasure balls"? Why are there save points? Why can I only upgrade at these save points? Why can I shop at only these save points? Why are these shops selling to a L'Cie?

Truthfully, FFXIII felt like a half-finished game. A game that wanted to do so much and then ran out of money and time, so it had to be rushed out the door as is with a couple of band-aids added to it to make it function. I guess that's why we are getting so many FFXIII games, but it's too bad we will need to pay for the game many times over...

It's sad to see how far Square has fallen...I used to like their .games so much, and they showed such promise. To think that this was the road they somehow took...

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Now, Jessica, you don't want drastic changes in your FF games, and that's perfectly fine. I don't really want to say that's some horrible blight on the gaming community, although I do think we should demand newness and freshness in our games.

Did you even read my post? I said I wouldn't care how they made the game as long as the game was decent, but it wasn't. It was terrible. The story was convoluted, the characters were unlikable, the combat was over simplified and button bashy and the 'game' consisted of watching a movie.

If it wasn't a Final Fantasy game, I still wouldn't like it.

 

[Whimsi]

Oh sure "Uh...yeah, we never REALLY meant to make an RPG at all! Yeah!"

Try saying it BEFORE the game comes out for more effect...

 

[Jeff Dunn]

Now, Jessica, you don't want drastic changes in your FF games, and that's perfectly fine. I don't really want to say that's some horrible blight on the gaming community, although I do think we should demand newness and freshness in our games.

Did you even read my post? I said I wouldn't care how they made the game as long as the game was decent, but it wasn't. It was terrible. The story was convoluted, the characters were unlikable, the combat was over simplified and button bashy and the 'game' consisted of watching a movie.

If it wasn't a Final Fantasy game, I still wouldn't like it.

Multiple times. That line was in response to this:

If you are going to try and make a completely new type of game don't make it a sequel.

I took that to mean you don't want future FF games to "try and make a completely new type of game." Right?

 

[Hulyen]

I liked FF13 once it actually got to the point of being a GAME. It felt like a long boring dragged out tutorial for a good many chapters. Add in Chapter 7 almost making me stop playing because I couldn't stand to hear Hope whine ONE MORE TIME and nothing happening at all in the story, and you have a terrible first part of a game. I didn't enjoy it until chapter 11 when you hit Gran Pulse and finally get to go explore and feel like you have control.

I didn't hate those portions of the game because they weren't 'Final Fantasy' - which is kind of a hollow statement, since 13 is a natural progression from 10 -> 11 -> 12 combat and even setting-wise, I hated them because they were poorly done. The game felt like different departments of Square worked on different sections of the game, then just mashed it into chapters.

RPG or not, FF13 was a story and character driven game that had a painfully slow story and poorly presented characters, and THOSE are it's critical flaws.

 

[Hulyen]

I took that to mean you don't want future FF games to "try and make a completely new type of game." Right?

Actually, I'd like to point out that Square does this all the time with its non-core Final Fantasy games (ie Tactics, Dissidia, etc), with mixed reception. I'd also like to point out that they have done this exact thing before with 11, which was an MMO, and still got less flak than 13 did.

Edit: Clarified what I meant by 'core games'

 

[Danceofmasks]

What ..

Even if every single thing said here are amazingly apt points of merit for the game, there is no excuse, none, under any circumstances, for any game, ever, to have a 30 hour tutorial.

 

[Jeff Dunn]

I took that to mean you don't want future FF games to "try and make a completely new type of game." Right?

Actually, I'd like to point out that Square does this all the time with its non-core Final Fantasy games (ie Tactics, Dissidia, etc), with mixed reception. I'd also like to point out that they have done this exact thing before with 11, which was an MMO, and still got less flak than 13 did.

Edit: Clarified what I meant by 'core games'

Right. You're very much right, Hulyen. This builds off the "Lighting's Quest" line I wrote in the article, though, right? Even if FF13 had just named itself a "secondary" (or "non-core") entry in the series, it may not have gotten as much flak from some. Would it have gotten more flak than if it had changed the name entirely? Of course, but it'd lie in this sort of "half Final Fantasy" state, in the middle ground between the two options (i.e. being a core entry and being a new IP entirely). At the same time, it probably wouldn't have sold as well as a "non-core" entry as it did as a "core" entry.

 

[Hulyen]

I took that to mean you don't want future FF games to "try and make a completely new type of game." Right?

Actually, I'd like to point out that Square does this all the time with its non-core Final Fantasy games (ie Tactics, Dissidia, etc), with mixed reception. I'd also like to point out that they have done this exact thing before with 11, which was an MMO, and still got less flak than 13 did.

Edit: Clarified what I meant by 'core games'

Right. You're very much right, Hulyen. This builds off the "Lighting's Quest" line I wrote in the article, though, right? Even if FF13 had just named itself a "secondary" (or "non-core") entry in the series, it may not have gotten as much flak from some. Would it have gotten more flak than if it had changed the name entirely? Of course, but it'd lie in this sort of "half Final Fantasy" state, in the middle ground between the two options (i.e. being a core entry and being a new IP entirely). At the same time, it probably wouldn't have sold as well as a "non-core" entry as it did as a "core" entry.

It wouldn't have gotten as much flak simply because it wouldn't have sold as many copies. My point is that Square already HAS a vehicle for 'new genre' Final Fantasy games, so them complaining that the core series has no way to innovate (which is untrue) is just silly in my opinion.

 

[Simonoly]

He said he liked FFIX over FFXIII because he didn't want to murder all the main characters. I can relate to that.

And there you also have my reason for hating VIII and X. They'd have been decent if Squall and Tidus hadn't been the 2 most annoying and whiny f*cks on the face of the planet.

Agreed. I actually really like Zidane from FFIX, simply due to the fact that he is neither whiny nor a depressing little shit. He was just a normal guy (albiet with a tail) that liked to have a laugh and stab the crap out of wildlife. Cloud, Squall and Lightning all fall under the depressed teenager category for me, which just isn't fun to watch. Tidus and Vaan from FFXII were basically the same whiney characters. If Square Enix want to create something unique, maybe they should start giving their main characters new personalities?

Giving them new personalities?! Next you'll be asking that they make their next game without androgynous teenagers as main characters!
And yeah, I'd forgotten about Lightning. Christ, the only person in XIII that managed to out-annoy her in my eyes was friggin' Snow (Who, together with Hope, needs to die in some sort of grisly accident involving chainsaws, napalm, and a morbidly obese walrus).

Oh what a dream - a Final Fantasy game not starring a passive agressive androgynous teenager as the main protagonist. Really, one can only dream....

I like your method of destruction when it comes to Final Fantasy 13 characters. I just want to blend them in my shitty under-used smoothie maker. I love blending stuff I hate. It's cathartic.

 

[Jeff Dunn]

I took that to mean you don't want future FF games to "try and make a completely new type of game." Right?

Actually, I'd like to point out that Square does this all the time with its non-core Final Fantasy games (ie Tactics, Dissidia, etc), with mixed reception. I'd also like to point out that they have done this exact thing before with 11, which was an MMO, and still got less flak than 13 did.

Edit: Clarified what I meant by 'core games'

Right. You're very much right, Hulyen. This builds off the "Lighting's Quest" line I wrote in the article, though, right? Even if FF13 had just named itself a "secondary" (or "non-core") entry in the series, it may not have gotten as much flak from some. Would it have gotten more flak than if it had changed the name entirely? Of course, but it'd lie in this sort of "half Final Fantasy" state, in the middle ground between the two options (i.e. being a core entry and being a new IP entirely). At the same time, it probably wouldn't have sold as well as a "non-core" entry as it did as a "core" entry.

It wouldn't have gotten as much flak simply because it wouldn't have sold as many copies. My point is that Square already HAS a vehicle for 'new genre' Final Fantasy games, so them complaining that the core series has no way to innovate (which is untrue) is just silly in my opinion.

Understandable. And you're right in that, naturally, it's "more money, more problems" for the franchise with regard to the amount of flak they're going to get. I suppose I don't like the fact that they have to have a separate vehicle for "innovative games," then (although they're not the only studio to do this). But agree to disagree. Thanks again.

 

[Atmos Duality]

No, I don't find that unreasonable Atmos, not at all. But when the guy who makes the game tells you this before the game comes out, I think you should adjust your expectations accordingly. The interview I referenced came before the NA release of the game (or at least right around the same time), so it was before all the backlash.

Ah, well I must have missed that.
Then again, I was away from civilization around when FF13 launched; I mostly remember being worried about my back yard flooding.

Also, "something new" up there refers to it being new relative to the franchise, not to the genre as a whole.

Actually, looking at it a bit more closely, shaking up the mechanics/mood started from about FF5 onward. It's not that new to the franchise. I'd argue that Squaresoft actually experimented a fair bit during their "glory years" (1994-2000).

FF5 introduced the class system, FF7 and FF8 are very unique installments, FF9 was a throwback to (especially to FF4 and FF6 mechanically, where characters had more unique skill sets), FF10 was sort of a hybrid of FF8 and FF9, and mechanically is very similar to FF13 in character progression.
FF12 was literally designed to play like an MMO, but as a single player title.

So for me, it wasn't any great shock when they "changed" in FF13. It's just that the changes weren't interesting or good. Adding "live-action" timing to what is essentially a turn-based game (there's a rhythm to it) didn't really bother me; I like a couple of Namco's "Tales Of..." games and they essentially treat combo chains as turns taken in real time.

Oh, and Zell is a tool. You guys can't change my mind there. Think of hanging out with that guy. I guess I'm a little like Seifer then.

I consider him a prime example of an "attitude" character taken too far.
There were points where he was approaching Bubsy levels of douche. I cringed when he launched into his "chicken strut" upon making it to SeeD.

To me, the Final Fantasy series, past one at least, has only been an RPG in mechanics only, that is to say the stats and combat and what not. I don't know if you've noticed but you don't actually do any "role-playing" in them, you just play out a pretty linear plot.

Heh, part of the problem is that "RPG" has the broadest definition of any genre/element in the entirety of gaming. I cannot begin to describe how nebulous the term is; even "game with stats" is a pretty broad categorization when you consider how many games there are with "stats" there are that aren't RPGs; or multi-genre titles.

What gets defined as "role-playing"? Pretending you're someone/something else and playing their story? Playing one "class" from a series that has a special "role"? Both of these have been done with and without the other.

As for the linear plot; well, that's a limitation of production. Even in the games with non-linear plots, and you will find that nearly all of them have to cut corners somewhere to deal with the fractal-logic and exponential growth of plot branches. (Radiata Stories, Blade Runner by Westwood)