Shit, it's Life Is Strange, not Love. Really good game otherwise.Casual Shinji said:And Love is Strange? They made a game based on a Buddy Holly song?! Fuck yeah!
In Witcher 3, Size Matters
- Thread starter Shamus Young
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And to think, we are still early in this generation. There's still a lot more to come.
Previously devs were focussing on making things bigger and bigger, aiming for that awe factor, maybe because they finally had the power to realise the idea? I'm hoping that whilst they can still aim for big they don't keep getting bigger but instead direct the increased power into content and detail.
Previously devs were focussing on making things bigger and bigger, aiming for that awe factor, maybe because they finally had the power to realise the idea? I'm hoping that whilst they can still aim for big they don't keep getting bigger but instead direct the increased power into content and detail.
Not to derail this thread when there's probably a perfectly good other place to have this discussion, but forcing the inclusion of a black character when the area of the world this takes place in (and most of the books as well if I remember correctly) doesn't have any, is both patronizing and kinda racist in itself. It would be like demanding a white person in something like Arabian Nights just because it's full of brown people. The culture of the people who made it is getting ignored and all you're paying attention to is skin color. Please stop. This topic has been done to death and the only people who are making a big deal out of this are the usual moral outrage brigade.Objectable said:
Why can't we just focus on how much effort and work they put into bringing this world onto our screens? Like Shamus said, I also have no idea how they managed this. The amount of voice work alone boggles the mind. CDPR did good.
Oh for the love of..
I'll speak here as a Pole AND a former employee of CD Projekt (disclaimer - I was the logistics guy in Polish distribution branch of the company, not part of the creative team behind The Witcher 3) - I'm sick and tired of all those ethnic debacles about this game.
CDPR is a Polish company, yes, but right now it's pretty much a multi-culture team. The Executive producer for this game is an American from Georgia state. They have a team of people from all around the world, including black people (from France) and Asian (Filipino). And those are just people I personally met there, there's probably more, if you'll dig into the subject. Heck, their next big project, Cyberpunk 2077, is created in close association with the original Cyberpunk RPG creator - Mike Pondsmith, who is black. The team is pretty much aware of different ethnic backgrounds, thank you were much. As for us, Poles ourselves - yes, our country is like 99% white people. No, that does not mean, we are not aware of other cultures existing.
So... Why there was no black people in Witcher 3? Because it does not fit the lore, God damn it. If someone would actually bother to read the books (although I heard that the English translation is terrible, so that may be at fault here, I don't know), would have caught it immediately. The world of The Witcher series is basically Northern Kingdoms, Skellige Isles, Nilgaard Empire, and Zerrikania. From the west, there is a vast ocean that no one traversed, and no one knows what's there. To the East, there are huge mountain ranges, that people did not traverse to find out what's there. Zerrikania is a desert land, and as far south/east as people ever went. This is this universe land of black people who are living there peacefully and minding their own business. In fact, they are deliberately staying away from from Northeners (ie. white people), because they want to take no part in their crazy power struggles. The only exceptions are pretty much mercenaries, like Tea and Vea - the duo of female Zerrikan bodyguards in the books, or indeed Azar Javed, a Zerrikan sorcerer, one of the main antagonists in The Witcher 1. Even the mercenaries prefer to stay away from the North though during the time of war. The war that we see in The Witcher 3 is actually the 3rd war with Nilfgaard, and during the 2nd one in the books it is stated, that Zerrikans want to have no part in any of the Northener's bloodshed. Also, they would have to either sail through ENTIRE continent west coast to get there (kindly reminder: Skellige pirates does not fuck around), or travel by foot/cart through Nilfgaard, and their borders.
Do you see where I'm getting at? Putting a black person in this particular region of the world, during this time would mean explaining, why the fuck would he/she travel so far north during such dangerous times (Velen/Novigrad is basically THE FRONTLINE of this war), when risk/reward ratio is really bad, while he/she could stay safe in their homeland south. It would be getting out of the way of the lore and common sense of people living in that universe. It could be done, yes. It would be also an unnecessary stretch to fit in there, that would be instantly accused of tokenism, I guarantee it. And no, expectations of some people from USA are not enough to compromise perfectly fine geographical lore of the universe. You don't like it - fine, no one forces you to agree with it. It's a product you can willingly accept to consume or not based on your preferences. THEREFORE please do not force your expectations of racial quotas on other people's products, because not all products are made with you in mind. That's their idea of the game, where black people simply do not fit, due to LOGICAL, GEOGRAPHICAL, LORE reasons, not "Lol, racism, we don't know that black people exist". You are basically expecting Zulu people to travel north and fight in Germany vs Poland war. Please stop that, it's insulting.
Phew... Rant's over. Now go play the game. It really is damn awesome.
I'll speak here as a Pole AND a former employee of CD Projekt (disclaimer - I was the logistics guy in Polish distribution branch of the company, not part of the creative team behind The Witcher 3) - I'm sick and tired of all those ethnic debacles about this game.
CDPR is a Polish company, yes, but right now it's pretty much a multi-culture team. The Executive producer for this game is an American from Georgia state. They have a team of people from all around the world, including black people (from France) and Asian (Filipino). And those are just people I personally met there, there's probably more, if you'll dig into the subject. Heck, their next big project, Cyberpunk 2077, is created in close association with the original Cyberpunk RPG creator - Mike Pondsmith, who is black. The team is pretty much aware of different ethnic backgrounds, thank you were much. As for us, Poles ourselves - yes, our country is like 99% white people. No, that does not mean, we are not aware of other cultures existing.
So... Why there was no black people in Witcher 3? Because it does not fit the lore, God damn it. If someone would actually bother to read the books (although I heard that the English translation is terrible, so that may be at fault here, I don't know), would have caught it immediately. The world of The Witcher series is basically Northern Kingdoms, Skellige Isles, Nilgaard Empire, and Zerrikania. From the west, there is a vast ocean that no one traversed, and no one knows what's there. To the East, there are huge mountain ranges, that people did not traverse to find out what's there. Zerrikania is a desert land, and as far south/east as people ever went. This is this universe land of black people who are living there peacefully and minding their own business. In fact, they are deliberately staying away from from Northeners (ie. white people), because they want to take no part in their crazy power struggles. The only exceptions are pretty much mercenaries, like Tea and Vea - the duo of female Zerrikan bodyguards in the books, or indeed Azar Javed, a Zerrikan sorcerer, one of the main antagonists in The Witcher 1. Even the mercenaries prefer to stay away from the North though during the time of war. The war that we see in The Witcher 3 is actually the 3rd war with Nilfgaard, and during the 2nd one in the books it is stated, that Zerrikans want to have no part in any of the Northener's bloodshed. Also, they would have to either sail through ENTIRE continent west coast to get there (kindly reminder: Skellige pirates does not fuck around), or travel by foot/cart through Nilfgaard, and their borders.
Do you see where I'm getting at? Putting a black person in this particular region of the world, during this time would mean explaining, why the fuck would he/she travel so far north during such dangerous times (Velen/Novigrad is basically THE FRONTLINE of this war), when risk/reward ratio is really bad, while he/she could stay safe in their homeland south. It would be getting out of the way of the lore and common sense of people living in that universe. It could be done, yes. It would be also an unnecessary stretch to fit in there, that would be instantly accused of tokenism, I guarantee it. And no, expectations of some people from USA are not enough to compromise perfectly fine geographical lore of the universe. You don't like it - fine, no one forces you to agree with it. It's a product you can willingly accept to consume or not based on your preferences. THEREFORE please do not force your expectations of racial quotas on other people's products, because not all products are made with you in mind. That's their idea of the game, where black people simply do not fit, due to LOGICAL, GEOGRAPHICAL, LORE reasons, not "Lol, racism, we don't know that black people exist". You are basically expecting Zulu people to travel north and fight in Germany vs Poland war. Please stop that, it's insulting.
Phew... Rant's over. Now go play the game. It really is damn awesome.
You see, I just don't buy this. There were black people in medieval Europe, you know that right? Not all that many, but they were there. I don't see it as being an especially big deal but it did strike me some ways in that I hadn't encountered a single non-white character save for one succubus in a game that has so many NPCs. It's just kinda weird.Lightknight said:
Can we just copypaste this anywhere we see some dumb fuck going on about this crap?Yossarian1507 said:
OT: I completed my first playthrough at just under 70 hours doing ALMOST NOTHING BUT MAIN STORY. (On Death March, btw) The sheer amount of content in this game defies reason.
How do you expect to me feel about that? This is a Polish game representing Polish culture based on very Polish books. I do not mind there are no black faces. I won't condemn them or try and insinuate bad motives to the developers. If you want to take the game to task for something it did, fine. Did the game glorify racism or sexism? Did it espouse hatred clearly and unequivocally against trans people? No. But if it had at least you would have something to complain about.Objectable said:
Complaining that a game from a non-American culture doesn't represent American culture seems way out of line to me.
No. Its a low fantasy setting, in a handful of lands based loosely on the slavic places of europe. Witchers job is NOT to satisfy your idiotic need for diversity, it is to represent the setting its based upon. At which it succeeds greatly. And thats the only thing I have to say about that.Objectable said:When actual racists call the lack of black people a victory, that's a problemjurnag12 said:
OT: I absolutely agree with you Shamus, it is a MASSIVE game...but I dont mind having to play if for months before finishing it...the game is just that great.
10/10. Anyone not playing it is missing out on some seriously good game.
I think I love you a bit.Denamic said:
Since I'm not interested in rehashing this same argument for the 9 millionth time, maybe someone more familiar with the books can answer my question here, it is at least tangentially related to race in the Witcher.
What race are the Zerrikanians exactly? I just read that post up above saying that they were Black, but all their in-game descriptions come off as really Middle-Eastern: deserts, Genies, and all that other stuff. Do they have a defined race or cultural influence or are they just a hodge-podge of "mysterious" middle-eastern/north African traits mashed together.
Also, why are all the best horse accessories in the game the Zerrikanian stuff? Is there a lore reason for that, do they have awesome horse riders in the books? or is it just kind of random selection when the items were created? Is all their stuff super awesome, or is it just the horse accessories?
I do find it funny that all this Zerrikanian stuff is apparently in the North, including mentions of Skellige raiding Zerrikanian merchants, apparently being isolationist doesn't stop me from finding random hobo merchants in Novigrad selling Zerrikanian saddlebags, or Skellige giving me a Zerrikanian saddle for winning their horse races.
What race are the Zerrikanians exactly? I just read that post up above saying that they were Black, but all their in-game descriptions come off as really Middle-Eastern: deserts, Genies, and all that other stuff. Do they have a defined race or cultural influence or are they just a hodge-podge of "mysterious" middle-eastern/north African traits mashed together.
Also, why are all the best horse accessories in the game the Zerrikanian stuff? Is there a lore reason for that, do they have awesome horse riders in the books? or is it just kind of random selection when the items were created? Is all their stuff super awesome, or is it just the horse accessories?
I do find it funny that all this Zerrikanian stuff is apparently in the North, including mentions of Skellige raiding Zerrikanian merchants, apparently being isolationist doesn't stop me from finding random hobo merchants in Novigrad selling Zerrikanian saddlebags, or Skellige giving me a Zerrikanian saddle for winning their horse races.
I doubt CDPR had to spend 90% of their budget on hookers and blow for the marketing team, like most AAA studios.Areloch said:
Wow, I am so looking forward to this game. When I can, one day, afford to buy a full price game again, or find it on a Steam sale. I was impressed at TW1, I was amazed at TW2, and when I finally play TW3 it may very well kill me.
I don't know where Areloch got the 10.5 figure from, every source I've seen says 15 million, and that's before marketing budgets are calculated. The marketing budget for the game was supposedly 25 million, putting the total cost somewhere in the realm of 40 million, which isn't exactly that much higher than a lot of other games commonly lumped into the AAA category. The extraordinary part is that they didn't blow triple the games development cost in marketing.infohippie said:
Really the development costs are only really really low if you compare it to the budgetary behemoths like those Ubisoft and Rockstar make. Games like God of War III cost a fairly similar amount in just development costs, things like GTAV's 200 million budget, or Ubisoft's bloated budgets aren't actually the norm, from what I can find, most AAA games seem to be developed for around 10-30 million, only really going over for the big name stuff, or for licensed games where you can spend 10's of millions just to secure the licensing rights to produce the game.
Well, it might surprise you to learn this, but, save for the past few decades, there really were no black people in eastern Europe. Crazy.Objectable said:
Back on topic, I didn't think I could like CDPR more, but I do. Witcher 3 is an outstanding game (and I didn't much like the first 2). The only game that managed to make such a rich, believable and living open world has so far been GTA V, and they basically just threw money at it 'till it got there (most expensive piece of media ever produced and so on). In an industry where overblown budgets are a huge issue, it's all the more impressive what CDPR managed to achieve on what I expect is a fraction of GTA V's budget.
Talented developers aren't enough if they can't manage their budget, as DoubleFine keeps demonstrating.
They are of the human race. Humans came to this continent only 500 years ago(elves around 1000 years before that).EternallyBored said:
They aren't all that well covered in the books. They worship dragons. They have a different skin tone, not necessarily hereditary from before the First Landing.
Not so much in Poland. It's far enough to the east from Atlantic Ocean, far enough west from Middle Asia and far enough north from even Black Sea to have major POC traffic.SnakeTrousers said:
Oh the silly skin deep American view on racism and diversity. Racism is a huge point across the Witcher games. MUCH bigger compared to the books and much more straightforward. This whole "white privilege" thing went too loud drowning out nuances, context and history. Having same skin color never really stopped anyone from discriminating based on ethnicity, language or any other kind of unpopular trait.
Zerrikania lore:EternallyBored said:
Books (canon) - IIRC no info about skin color. Female warriors with curved blades wearing exotic furs. They worship dragons. Not much else to say, there's only two unimportant Zerrikanian characters (Tea & Vea) in ONE short story.
Polish comicbooks (not canon, but Sapkowski incorporated some things from comics into the official lore) - Judge yourself: http://oi59.tinypic.com/14xgwae.jpg
Tea & Vea seem... rather... white. Though on some panels they have somewhat sub-saharan facial features.
Pen'n'paper (not canon) - Generic amazons. Matriarchal society from faraway land of deserts and jungles. *isolationists!*.
http://wiedzmin.irpg.pl/dane/img/1045_rys2.gif
http://wiedzmin.irpg.pl/dane/img/1045_rys1.gif
Games - eh, your guess is as good as mine. Near East I suppose. But with more dragon worship and jungles.
You know Europe is a pretty big place, right? As someone who actually lives in eastern Europe, I can tell you black people are a rarity even today. 100 years ago, in a landlocked country that, as far as I know, was never involved in the slave trade, they would have been basically non-existent.SnakeTrousers said:
It's very amusing to me people who preach "diversity" can't comprehend the notion that Europe isn't one big melting pot, and just because there might have been different races in certain parts of Europe (those who colonized a lot of the world), it wasn't the case in most other parts.
"I have no idea how this thing got made, or how the developer didn't go broke in the process."
My three guesses: massive fanbase (from the previous games), based on a series of books (free pre-made backstory and characters) AND no DRM... ?
My three guesses: massive fanbase (from the previous games), based on a series of books (free pre-made backstory and characters) AND no DRM... ?
I for one agree with the folks complaining about racism in Witcher 3 - perhaps the inspirations for the original book lore did not contain much room for racial diversity, but that is no excuse to simply ignore a real issue and instead focus on ridiculous fantasy themes like indigenous non-human races being persecuted based on their ethnicity and their destructive reaction (Scoia'tael) to such oppression when civilized discourse within accepted social norms, as well as appeals to the government fail them. Or witchers themselves being social outcasts, at least as much because of their recruitment process, as because of their physiological diffrences and hermetic culture. Those forms of discrimination are not valid arguments against it, since they only affect fictional beings and discrimination is real and thus, it needs to be portrayed affecting fictional people belonging to real groups suffering under its yoke.
OT, glad to hear the game turned out well, my PC needs a major upgrade before I can run it, but I very much intend to get it once my hardware's up to par.
OT, glad to hear the game turned out well, my PC needs a major upgrade before I can run it, but I very much intend to get it once my hardware's up to par.
I've actually run into one Zerrikanian, sort of lategame though, a lvl 30 sidequest in Skellige(he'd ended up there by being in a mage tower that teleported as a security measure against intruders).Rzepik said:
He was pretty white, maybe lightly tanned, with some middle eastern culture influence.
I must say though that I am so tired of the SocJus crusade for enforced tokenism. This game is actually heavily anti-racist, it just plays it out with humans, elves, halflings and dwarves, instead of skin colours.
You know what I find racist? That no one is complaining about the absence of Asians in the game.Objectable said:
Mind you, I personally don't care whether they include real world minorities or not, they've got enough racism towards (and from) elves and dwarves. It's funny, though, how moral outrage is only over inclusion of black people as if Asians are somehow less deserving of representation.
Some people use the "people of color" (note the absence of a "u" in "colour") label, but me thinks you illustrated nicely what the outrage is about.
OT: I wanted to put in my two cents on their reasonable budget resulting in grand game but others said it better than I could, EternallyBored for one. I also think viral marketing did a lot of work for them, or they depended on it to do so and as such didn't spend silly amounts on marketing.