Insight into what "objectification" is & how to fix it

[Lightknight]

The place where I draw the line is whether a person is able to legitimately make their own decisions. So if a woman decides to wear a particular thing, she is making that decision for herself. A model in a Victoria's Secret ad, on the other hand, isn't really making her own decision since she's being paid (beyond knowing before going in that she's going to be in a lingerie ad, of course, but the framing of the images and that weird unhappy facial expression that people think is sexy are things set up by the director, not the model). A video game character doesn't exist and thus can't make her own decisions. A lot of female artists still draw problematic art, and there are tons of male artists who can draw excellent female characters.

So you're against other people paying or convincing women to dress or behave in ways that objectify themselves? Does it hinge on the mentality of the model? For example, if a model loves her job and genuinely wants to do that work, does that somehow change the legitimacy of the objectification?

Beyond that, how do you believe that this translates into lines of code which can make no choices of their own whatsoever? If the developers produced multiple clothes variations of which the code could randomly "choose", would that somehow change things if there were modest clothing options available? For that matter, what of games where the player chooses what they wear? Are the developers at fault for including more explicit garments or is that acceptable since choice is involved?

Sorry for so many questions, I'm just trying to get down to the nuts and bolts of your side of the discussion.

Oh, obviously they have a right to do it or it wouldn't be happening. There is never going to be (nor should there be!) a Cleavage Police or something to make sure characters are appropriately attired. On the other hand, I think that the samey look a lot of 'sexy' female characters have is endemic of a lack of creativity in the industry and it would be great to see a more diverse pool of characters along the entire gender spectrum.

Well, the ever present "sexy" female look is present in all forms of media and real life. It certainly isn't going away. I think the desire for it plays off of fundamental desires found in either sex (the lust desire and the desire to be lusted after/found attractive). It isn't necessarily a problem so much as it's core to who we are. As with all organic life, if your genes aren't passed along then it's as if you never lived genetically. So unless something huge happens to us as a species then we're going to want sex to be a theme in a lot of what we do.

I think one of the things that makes Elementary fantastic is that the writers obviously respect all of the characters. They are all capable in different ways and even the character who is trans* isn't the butt of any jokes.

Ah, great! You do enjoy the show. I figured from our discussion that we may share a mutual appreciation for it. I think the reverse gender casting and the taste with which it's done is a great example of it done right. It's actually exciting to think about what other possibilities it can open up.

Spoilered for novel-length response:

It's true that perhaps I'm underestimating porn's impact on people. As you said it's difficult to quantify the actual effect because most people aren't going to admit to their friends what they watch or what they expect from women on that front if their friends are also women. I'm also not one of the anti-porn feminists, though I do believe that the industry needs more regulation in order to be a safe place for women.

The removal of porn isn't as important as educating people on what a healthy sexual relationship should look like. Porn basically serves as misinformation and can lead to some SERIOUS problems in the bedroom. America in particular is really repressed and so legitimate information/advice isn't as commonly sought after (for embarrassment of asking questions) nor is it commonly given unsolicited. In that way, porn has an innappropriate position as sex education when its real intention is visual sensory stimulation rather than realistic portrayals.

I do want to make it clear however that I'm not 'attacking' anyone. My problem with objectification in gaming does not have as much to do with how said objectification might psychologically impact women (our entire culture does that, not one particular art form) as it does with a disappointing lack of creativity and a belief that seeing those images as representative of gaming is driving away women who might otherwise be interested in the hobby.

I'd say that video games are an extremely marginal example of media portraying women in unrealistic or objectified ways. The ways they're portrayed are also extremely mundane in gaming compared to other media due to already more stringent rating systems.

My problem is more that this is one of the few roles for women in stories that games attempt to tell. We rarely see situations from the perspective of the damsel, and sometimes she doesn't even speak. We don't know anything about her personality aside from the fact that the lead character presumably likes her (or at least the reward for rescuing her, depending on the character). This woman isn't a character, she's a plot device to motivate the male character into action. The bad guy could kidnap the protagonist's cat and the plot would play out basically the same way.

A damsel in distress being used as a plot device isn't necessarily bad. We don't necessarily need to know anything more about her anymore than we need to know about a zombie that's between us and our goal. That is the difference between a plot mechanic and a character. I agree that some of the most enjoyable stories combine the two (I'm psyched about the Last of Us) but I ultimately don't believe it to be necessary. As long as they don't overtly objectify the plot mechanic then it doesn't matter that it's a blank slate. That can ultimately make things more personal than if she ended up being a real whiner or something abrasive.

You're right that men tend to be the perpetrators of violence in modern society, but I think the thing that makes a man attacking a woman more egregious than vice-versa is that the position of power that men generally hold over women in our culture. Women often feel like they can't escape violent situations without something much worse occurring, and authorities aren't always willing to help women who are in or survivors of a dangerous situation. There is a different social context to images of men hurting women than there is to women hurting men, and this is at least partly because it isn't a relatively recent development that men beating their wives was no longer seen as something that just happens.

I agree that this is part of the perception. But I'm not sure how it makes the perception any less true/valid.

Please keep in mind that men are truly stronger than women by a significant margin. On average we're much larger, stronger and faster. That is not a trivial difference if a male wishes to take advantage of the female. Even in today's society, this is a very real possibility and any person may come across a situation that demands they respond to such a scenario with the same sort of heroism displayed by protagonists in games. (e.g., woman screams for help due to a man assaulting her. The other individual is in earshot and runs to her rescue).

Any time a female character is hurt and it is framed by the story as something bad that happened to a man, then the story has a problem.

Not really, any story is going to be protagonist centric. If something happened to my wife it would be a very real loss to me and any friends of mine who aren't friends of her's would be more concerned for me. In the story of my life it would be something bad that happened to me. In the story of her life it would be something bad that happened to her. That's not a story problem, that's just a focused perspective. All it's doing is putting you in their shoes and asking you how to feel if something like that happened to someone you care about. Empathy towards what she went through is also part of that calculation but shouldn't be the focus unless it was the protagonist's fault or if the protagonist is in danger of going through that too.

As I said earlier, many of these kidnapped/imprisoned/comatose characters have little to no character development. They may not even be seen on screen until the very end of the story. There never seems to be a question of the character trying to escape her own imprisonment (except for poor put-upon Elaine from the Monkey Island series, but her capabilities tend to be framed as a joke about how inept Guybrush is at life).

A missing love interest or child is an instant motivator and allows writers to avoid having to come up with any kind of character motivation. It's not necessarily a bad story, but when it's as common as it is, it's lazy and it robs pretty much any damsel involved of any agency of her own.

Elaine, nice reference. The damsel is not (usually) the protagonist in those kinds of games. It isn't her story. So it's not about her necessarily having agency of her own. That being said, I would prefer stories where the female characters have legitimate personalities and roles rather than just being some blank slate. Then again, perhaps the blank slate helps the gamer to be able to apply their own preferences onto the character. As an avatar, the characters should stand for people you relate to. If I'm playing a game where the character is saving a love interest, then mentally I transcribe that into me attempting to save my wife. While it of course doesn't illicit the emotions that would really be involved in the process, that is what makes such game mechanics universal. It isn't Mario saving the princess, it's me saving the princess/girl that I imagine her to be.

A damsel or kidnap victim or whatever that can free themselves is in no need of a hero. It is an important concept that only you can save them because no one else will if you don't. If I'm playing the Legend of Zelda and put my controller down, no other Link is going to waltz in and rescue Zelda and none of the village population is capable of obtaining the necessary tools to do the job. We have seen scenarios where the victim helps out against the boss once they've been freed (Zelda helping Link against Gannon).

In the case of the Mass Effect scars, however, the textures are already created and available for the male character. It actually used more resources to create prettified versions for female characters than it would have to simply port the male scars to the female head morphs. There is a mod that replaces the female scars with the male scars and it is a simple texture replacement.

Yes, because that's likely what the most people wanted the scars to look like. How many people do you think wanted to play as a woman that looked like that? Do you think that number was significant?

That being said, Mass Effect was all about letting the gamer decide things like that. However, being in software myself, a "simple texture replacement" isn't always what it appears to be. That may have required more resources than you think depending on the factors involved with the character modeling.

It is another part of my problem with the game industry that every female character needs to be attractive all the time. Maybe someone who has survived in the wilderness as long as Sole Survivor Shepards have isn't as physically attractive anymore, but those scars tell part of the story about her life. I don't think it's too much to ask that if an option is already available to a male character, it should be available to a female character as well.

We're beginning to see more variety. What with Borderland's Ellie and The Last of Us' female characters, there's a lot to be hopeful for. There are a lot of situations where having unnattractive characters would detract from the intended purpose. As a female you may not want to play as an unattractive individual if you have the option to play as someone more like your idealized self which is assumed to be attractive.

Actually, you know what? I've seen a large number of female characters that aren't particularly attractive. I'm not sure this is such a valid complaint anymore. Main characters are usually pretty but not always and supporting characters can often fall anywhere. Too old, too young, plain, fat (less common but present), outright ugly, and everything in between.

Some of it is even subjective. I never thought Liara T'soni from Mass Effect was attractive. I mean, standard attractive body type but the face... Then there's Tali who is basically a blank slate (looks however you imagine her to look) for the majority of the series. If you want to blame the body type being attractive, it more comes down to having a standard character model.

The thing is, I remember ugly or less attractive more than I remember beautiful blonde. So it may be better to go with that. Symmetry is forgettable while asymmetry can be very memorable.

The cut-scene muscles are probably the animators' attempt to make him look even more badass. Even little boys tend to draw characters with arms like Trogdor, so it is something that men like to see. Though I agree that the character model Kratos you linked is less ridiculously bulky than he is ridiculously well-defined. Maybe they're trying to imply that he's dehydrated like a body builder at a competition.

The thing is, you precieved Kratos as completely hulking like Arnold even though he isn't that blatantly muscular when you really look at him. This is what everyone mostly thinks of him unless the actual character model is deliberately reviewed. It's a funny concept, but they've managed to influence or to express a different image than what is there. I'm sure there's all sorts of interesting pyschology in there somewhere.

I think I agree that everyone would prefer that their own avatar be attractive, but it's jarring to be present in a world where even all of the side characters have to be beautiful, especially when male NPCs tend to be more diverse. You can feel pretty silly when your character looks silly even if she is well written. There is a mod for Dragon Age II that gives the female Hawke the male Hawke's walking animation because the female character's walk is so exaggeratedly sexy that is looks ridiculous on a warrior. I think that many women enjoy playing as pretty or feminine characters, but it would be nice to see a wider range of looks for characters, especially now that they have a wider range of roles to play.

As said, above, I do not believe this to be the case anymore. I'm thinking of games like Borderlands, Mass Effect, Skyrim, The Last of Us, Uncharted (unless you consider Elena Fisher to be a supermodel), Red Dead Redemption, Gears of War and several more. Right now I think we're dealing with more of a perception problem hinging on examples that go the other way.

I don't think I'd frame it as women are less prone to disliking sexualized characters, but as women are more used to seeing sexualized characters and thus don't complain about it as much. As a corollary, when they do complain about it, they're usually met with a deluge of angry internet men telling them to shut up, so there's also that.

You're saying they're culturally trained as such? This would be an interesting concept to explore. Women may also be naturally inclined to be submissive to objectification and so there may be more to it than just social programming. As with most things, I like to think a combination of the two is likely to be true in humans. Whereas men may be more biologically and socially vested in being manly. We know "socially" for sure.

You would think that game companies would want to increase their demographics to increase their profit margin, but this doesn't seem to be happening. A lot of women I know have a really negative impression of gaming, and many of their issues do focus on how women are portrayed in what bits of gaming they do see. It can be a chore to engage in a medium that feels like it doesn't want you.

There's a few things that could be at play here:

1. Women may actually prefer different kinds of games than men do. Whether biological or social reasons for it is not the issue. But in agreggate they do appear to have different trends in game type. As such, certain genres would always have a gender bias even at maximum target market involvement. Please bear in mind that my wife is an avid FPS gamer and enjoys most of the same games I do. But this doesn't seem to be the case with the average woman and it's the agreggates that seem to matter.

2. Catering to women in a game whose current demographic is overwhelmingly male would be financial suicide. However, I maintain (as you probably do) that the changes being requested aren't paradigm shifting differences and rather just an end to such overt objectification and to be less lazy with character development. That being said, minor changes won't suddenly draw in a significant number of women at the drop of the hat which brings me to the next point.

3. Perceptions are damn hard to change. There are a lot of games, especially recently, that are trying hard to do things right but news is mostly going to hit games like Dragon's Crown because people doing something badly is newsworthy whereas someone doing something right is just their job.

4. There is a chicken or the egg scenario here. Women do not play games because games aren't made for them. Games aren't made for them because there aren't enough women gamers. Endless cycle.

I just think that it's telling that even when we're jokingly designing 'attractive to women' characters we focus on what men want rather than what women would actually prefer.

"What women want" isn't as well defined as the physical proportions of what men want. If you ask a woman what she wants in a man you'll often times get qualities like sense of humor and sensitivity with less of a physical focus. If you ask a man you'll much more likely get physical characteristics dealt into it. We've known this difference in responses for some time now. What's more, women appear to be a lot more flexible in what they're attracted to. I mean, heaven only knows why my wife married me, haha. It really does appear that women are more interested in the quality of a man than men are interested in the quality of the woman. The world would be a better place if both were more interested in quality but what should be and what is are not often the same thing.

In addition to that, you should remember that the average person gaming is male and the average perception of what women want isn't as stable as what men want. I mean, honestly, men try to bulk up like Arnold just because they think that's the kind of many women want nowadays. That does not indicate a healthy understanding of what the average female wants. Then again, there are women who very much want that so it's an interesting scenario. A man could see a very feminine character and think that women would think he's gay, not attractive. So this fails to meet the criteria of being features that are commonly known as significant and attractive components.

For example, I wrestled in High School and am extremely muscular. To the point that friends have been known to demand I show (despite my protests at being put on display) a group of people what they call the "baby head" or the muscles in my forarms that form a sharp bulge. I do not maintain these muscles, I guess genetically they just don't go away. I've also got a hairy chest (thankfully I did not inherit ye ol' back of fur). I bring that up to explain that my wife loves those things. Women I've dated in the past have also expressed attraction to them. One girlfriend even convinced me to grow a full beard which I have thankfully long-since shaven.

My preference would be to see both male and female characters framed as characters whose stories matter outside of their physical attractiveness. I mean obviously in something like Leisure Suit Larry you are going to see a lot of objectifying camera shots and loosely drawn female characters, but in a game that wants to tell a serious story I would prefer not to see it. So I guess I'm trying to say that I would prefer to see neutral camera shots unless it's the type of game that would call for the other.

Are you saying that sexuality precludes or trivializes the possibility of the individual having a meaningful role in the story? I'd say that mass effect included characters whose development included sexual tension and situations but was not the sum of their being. Take a normal relationship in real life. There could be many meaningful aspects of the relationship that have nothing to do with physical interaction but that does not mean there isn't also a sexual relationship. We are complex enough to have all of them.

You may be offended that there were ass shots of Ashley and such but I also remember very clear posturing from the male individuals who were otherwise scripted (though the end with Kaiden was taken out due to social pressures) to be attracted to my Shep. I think in this situation that it is potentially part of it and you're reading it in the wrong way. Please keep in mind that I also completely agree that many games do it entirely gratiuitously without any such meaning or foresight other than, "Teen boys love T & A". I do feel that intention plays a role in whether or not it's blatant objectification.

What I believe is that while a male target market is being pandered to blatantly in this manner it will be difficult to make those numbers more even. As I said earlier, I would expect AAA game companies to want to increase their female demographic because AAA games are incredibly expensive to make and they want to make a profit.

How would you recommend they do that besides what I mentioned above? Is the solution just to not objectify them overtly and give them meaningful roles or do we need entirely custom made games for what developers "believe" to be what women want?

I agree that we are all a product of our environment and our current views are shaped by it, I just have a problem with the idea that women and men have been the way they are in modern Western society throughout time because all gender differences are biological, because it's not true. Also even today the spectrum is fairly broad regarding what any member of any gender wants to see or finds attractive.

It's also interesting to me that a lot of fictional societies portray the inequalities of our own society because it is so difficult for writers to imagine a world that is not like ours in the fundamentals (rather than just "flavor" stuff like 'they say hi by touching their noses' or something).

Oh, I don't think all gender differences are biological by any means. We are absolutely social creatures and very much formed by that aspect. I do think testosterone makes a SIGNIFICANT difference between the sexes in a lot more ways than just physically. Aggression being the prime example. I think significantly different agreggate differences in aggression can seriously impact what kind of games we like to play and such.

I'm not sure what you mean by the second paragraph. From what I've read, you can only make environments so alien before it frustrates the viewer. Including familiar features in an alien landscape can go a long way to avoid it. I hope that somewhat responded to your comment.

From what I remember the lead actress was a model who'd 'aged out' into acting because 25 is about when they take you out back with a shotgun when you're a model. She was being terrorized by a male admirer and I think she got kidnapped from a parking garage? It was mostly the phrasing of the review that stayed with me (the film was an incredibly forgettable woman-must-escape-crazed-stalker affair) but I'm afraid trying to google it will make me look like a serial killer.

Ah, then the review would be misleading unless there's some context being missed here. That's a weirdly worded review then.

Thank you for taking the time!

 

[AgedGrunt]

Very curious how many that are calling for change in the gaming industry have/would ask that labels and musicians change their lyrics and videos for the same cause. Just how prepared are you to ask a musician to justify their reason for writing a song about getting laid?

 

[CloudAtlas]

(...)Morrigan(...)

Well, I see a female character with a quite sexualized appearance that doesn't really fit to her background or her characterization.

 

[Voulan]

I'm a little bit offended by the people telling me I shouldn't be offended (someone previously in this thread actually called people like me 'stupid') that most women in gaming wear little to no clothing, have no personality and are literally used just to sell their games. Scarlet Blade is the perfect example of everything wrong in the gaming industry - objectification to cover up how bland the game actually is, with ads and marketing specifically stating that the point of the game is to stare at tits. I also hate that argument that the reason change shouldn't be made is because women barely make up the gaming market or are filthy casuals - do you not think this is because women have barely any power in games, so they feel alienated from the industry? Or that the women who do play 'hardcore' games are not worth catering to at all? Games, and by extension all media, reflect what we think of our own society, even if it is fictionalized - it's why we can look at filmic history or novels and use them to gain a sense of how society worked in that period. If women in games are naked bouncing sex toys, what does that say about us?

This game is PATHETIC. It is porn with an MMORPG slapped on top. You NEVER see male characters depicted like this in games. The problem in games is twofold. There's hardly any female characters in video games. But how are a lot of the few female characters who do exist treated? Often, like this.

People thought Tera Online was creepy. And definitely it oversexualizes its female characters. But it isn't alone. And worse yet, it gets worse. How many games are out there this sad and pathetic? I don't think I even want to know.

People keep saying that male characters are sexualized. Oh so sexualized. And even as sexualized as female characters. Watch that video. Watch that disgraceful little porn MMORPG review and tell me that male characters are as objectified and sexualized as male characters. Try it. Better yet, try making a youtube video, with your face plastered on it, with a straight face, talk about Scarlet Blade and compare it to depictions of male characters in video games and say that it is the same as male characters. I dare you.

Oh yes, and this is supposed to be this one off case pandering piece of garbage niche game and does not say anything about the video game industry. Obviously there MMORPGs about all naked dudes somewhere out there, right? And if this is so unique and special, why all the jiggle physics in Tera Online? Why all the jiggle physics in Skullgirls? What about games like Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball?
And Final Fantasy X-2 totally doesn't have Yuna in booty shorts. And how many examples do I have to go into to prove this is a problem. Make is stahp!

This is... I just.... AUURRRGH. I can't believe people don't think this isn't a double standard and isn't a problem.

God, I absolutely agree. It really makes me genuinely sad when people say "It's a non-issue, shut up already!" when we have such blatant examples like this. Of course they don't find it an issue, because (and I did look at the profiles that said this) everyone that argues the opposite are male, and are being catered to. How can anyone actually say with a straight face that there's nothing wrong with underage characters (like in Scarlet Blade) prancing around with no clothes, an exaggerated physique and with games blatantly using women as a marketing ploy? And then there's the counter-argument that "it happens to men too, so you have no right to complain!". I don't recall many games that feature men wearing nothing with bits and pieces wobbling all over the place, or the sexualized gaze of the camera, or this fact being used to sell the game to women. People are allowed to find things attractive, but when this is the character's only feature, it becomes tiring and offensive. And with so few examples of good female characters, and so little done to create variety, it starts to actually make people angry.

Sorry if I'm coming off as hostile, but when we're literally being belittled for even suggesting that it might be a concern and are being insulted in turn, I'm not going to be happy.

 

[Lightknight]

I'm a little bit offended by the people telling me I shouldn't be offended (someone previously in this thread actually called people like me 'stupid') that most women in gaming wear little to no clothing, have no personality and are literally used just to sell their games.

You certainly aren't being stupid and you can be offended at whatever the hell you want to. This coffee on my desk, it offends me.

What you have to remember is a few things.

1. Women are used to sell almost any product you can imagine. Correction, sex is used to see almost any product you can imagine. As long as we are biologically programmed to be attracted to things, they can be used as marketing. This isn't inherently evil. The difference is that men are much more easily marketed to than women. Mark it down to testosterone induced libido, social programming, or some other evolved traits that have survived because they increased our change to reproduce and therefore be more fit for survival as a species.

2. Women in real life have been known to dress incredibly scantily for no other reason than to do so. Those beach volleyball women are a pretty easy example of blatant sexualization but they weren't wearing anything that real women don't wear or doing anything that real women don't do. The physics is silly but it's really a game of model photoshoots than anything else. Am I offended by it? Sure. But fighting against these games would be little different from fighting against the existence of porn or romance novels. Not because those things are so hard to wipe out, but because you'd be turning yourself into a censor and book burner in the process. These games are not for you and they're not for me, but clearly there's a demand for them and so they are for someone. Even if they weren't, they still have every right to exist.

3. These are not women, these are lines of code. Other forms of media convince actual women to degrade themselves and their gender so this is essentially victimless comparatively. In my mind, there is a WORLD of difference between animating fake people sexually and convincing a real person to degrade themselves. I mean, if the code was an AI and begged to be allowed to dress more appropriately then sure... that would be getting closer.

4. What actual harm do you believe this kind of thing imposing on society? Do you believe that people can't tell the difference between an animated video game character hopping around in a bikini vs a female doctor in scrubs explaining to them why they shouldn't stick apendages into their video game console? This is maybe giving people the wrong impression of women in bikinis or buttless chaps. If you want a culprit that is actually causing people to act out you need look no further than the internet. Porn combined with ignorance of how things are actually supposed to work can really lead to damaging situations and opinions. Men who think women enjoy activities that do nothing for them and abuse them like they're meant for nothing more than male pleasure is the ultimate result of porn. Even then, the topic should be educating people better, rather than trying to censor someone's free speech. The porn industry could also use some significant reform (we have no idea how many women in those videos are actual sex slaves, ruffie victims, underage or anything else).

5. Real women actually go so far as to undergo surgery to look that way. There is a problem with anorexia and bulemia because they want to look like what they feel is attractive (but end up looking like Skeletor and still think they're fat). A non-trivial number of women do dress in the ways that they're being depicted. It's simply a fact of life and they're no less people than you are. It's dumb that sorority girls get all the face time in these games but it isn't an entirely false representation of them. In this way, designing attractive female characters isn't much different from casting attractive actresses for a movie.

So you're not being stupid when you get offended by this stuff. But what you should ultimately be mad at is the roles that these characters are given. Like women aren't competent or like women have not personality except the ones that bounce. Sexualization is going to happen. Women do it to themselves regularly. But lazy characterization of the female characters is just boring writing.