InstantAction CEO: Retailers Are "Parasites and Thieves"

[Cynical skeptic]

And 1 other quick point. It is the developer's job to make me not want to trade in my games. Ya that's right I said it. And not with this promises of DLC announced months before it will be released. No that ain't gonna cut it because I can just as easily trade in the game and pop into Blockbuster when the DLC is finally released. No make them so fun that I don't want to quit playing so I won't trade them in.

Why should developers/publishers spend more money to make better games if 50%-90% of the copies sold will be used copies?

 

[squid5580]

Go back and reread. I was editing.

Execpt what you added was irrelevant.

You are saying it is perfectly okay for used sales to account for 50%-90% of a game's sales. Its perfectly fine for retailers to pocket 70%-95% of the proceeds from a new game (they make more money on used sales than new copies, adjustment probably isn't accurate though). That its okay for developers/publishers to lose millions because retailers found a legal loophole. That retailers are the good guys here, because they're selling you used copies of newish games for $5 less than new copies. Copies they bought off someone else for, maybe, $7 off another used game.

That its the publisher's fault for not lowering prices, because retailers don't control pricing and wouldn't just percentage match the buy/sell prices of their used games.

Welcome to capitalism. If I don't sell them to GS I'll just sell them on Ebay because that is my property. And if I am done with something that I no longer want that someone else is willing to pay me for it what is the problem? Why is it fine and dandy to sell my car but not my game? Ford ain't gonna see a red cent if I slap a for sale sign on my car and some passerby pays me for it. So why is that OK but not a silver disc? And where exactly is this loophole. You have mentioned it a few times now but does used cars, clothes, furniture ect also fall into that loophole? How does the Salvation Army manage to slip through this loophole by selling used clothes that the designers/manufacturers will not see a dime from? Or do they have different rules than games?

 

[squid5580]

And 1 other quick point. It is the developer's job to make me not want to trade in my games. Ya that's right I said it. And not with this promises of DLC announced months before it will be released. No that ain't gonna cut it because I can just as easily trade in the game and pop into Blockbuster when the DLC is finally released. No make them so fun that I don't want to quit playing so I won't trade them in.

Why should developers/publishers spend more money to make better games if 50%-90% of the copies sold will be used copies?

Why should I buy new games when they are half assing it? Going to give me 50% then I will spend 50% on your product.

 

[Yureina]

Whining from corporations puts a smile on my face. Sorry, but i've got no sympathy for this CEO guy.

 

[Cynical skeptic]

Welcome to capitalism. If I-snip-

Except we're not talking about you. We're talking about massive retail chains fucking you over twice every time you buy a used game. Tricking you into thinking its your right to get fucked over.

I mean, I don't think the used sales will kill video games. But they will kill retail. So I guess this problem will eventually solve itself.

Why should I buy new games when they are half assing it? Going to give me 50% then I will spend 50% on your product.

I'm dead serious here, but if thats how you feel, just pirate. Cut out the middle man, flat out steal the game, then, maybe, if you like it enough, buy it. If you don't think a game is worth the new copy price, you'd never send any money in any direction that matters anyway, so... why hold so tightly to pretense?

Its the direction this bullshit is going to force video games to go anyway, (digital distribution, that is, not "play my game then buy it"), so why not be one of the first to live in the future, today!

 

[manaman]

Why is it only the gaming industry, one of the most profitable industries in the world, bitches about used sales?

I don't hear ANY of this moaning from used car dealerships, used DVD sales, used books, nothing. Someone had to have bought the game new in order for used to exist; you already made your money.

Someone with some sense posted second. Good, hopefully that means people will read it.

InstantAction's reputation will forever be tarnished by the mad rantings of it's CEO. This sounds like a petty temper-tantrum by a frankly selfish man child. Oh those retailers are thieves, but not for the reasons he stated.

I just wish they would force anyone that sales digital data on any form of medium to abide by first sale doctrine. There is no reason not to when everything other then software has worked perfectly fine in the past. Movies, books, music, past console games, are all intellectual property and are sold for home use, but all can be lent out, and sold when you are done with them. Why should computer software (and console software, because you know they want to do the same thing on consoles) be any different? It shouldn't, some parts of the industry just want to make more money, and they figure the way to do that is to stick everyone that uses the software with a bill, and the best way to do that is to make the average Joe believe that's the way it should be, and it's only fair.

 

[squid5580]

Welcome to capitalism. If I-snip-

Except we're not talking about you. We're talking about massive retail chains fucking you over twice every time you buy a used game. Tricking you into thinking its your right to get fucked over.

I mean, I don't think the used sales will kill video games. But they will kill retail. So I guess this problem will eventually solve itself.

Why should I buy new games when they are half assing it? Going to give me 50% then I will spend 50% on your product.

I'm dead serious here, but if thats how you feel, just pirate. Cut out the middle man, flat out steal the game, then, maybe, if you like it enough, buy it. If you don't think a game is worth the new copy price, you'd never send any money in any direction that matters anyway, so... why hold so tightly to pretense?

Its the direction this bullshit is going to force video games to go anyway, (digital distribution, that is, not "play my game then buy it"), so why not be one of the first to live in the future, today!

I wonder how long it will take to kill retail. I remember trading in my NES games at stores just like GS and yet 20 years later here we are.

Also how did I get the game to trade in in the first place if I didn't buy it? You logic is confused. Why am I going to steal something when I don't want to steal it? What is your fasination with associating used games to piracy? I mean Gamefly is a fuck of a lot closer to piracy than GS is. I also don't see how GS is fucking people over but a pawn shop isn't? They pay the same price as GS does (in terms of value vs how much they pay).

You seem to be misunderstanding where I am coming from. Whenever possible I buy new. If there is a game for 5 bucks less sitting next to a nicely wrapped game (with that new game smell) I will pay the extra 5. It is when I get it home and pop it in to find a big bouncing ball of disappointment that the game goes into the used game biz. The better the game the further it stays away from GS. So riddle me this. Why should I have to pay all that money for a product I am not satisfied with and then have to eat the entire cost? Not like anyone is going to give me a refund because I wasn't satisfied are they? So GS is my only way of getting some form of refund. Which goes back to my point. Make better games and you won't see so many used game sales because people are going to hoard them. Half ass it and enjoy the bed you made. Sounds perfectly fair to me.

 

[squid5580]

Oh and since I don't want to edit this in (because you may miss it) but explain this one to me. I am big on preordering (cuz I am a swag whore) so that means I get my games usually on day 1. And yet most games aren't at 100% on day one anymore are they? I don't mean DLC (cuz I luv me some good DLC). No I mean why am I expected to patiently wait for a patch which may take a day or may take months to finally get out there? Is that not encouraging used game sales? Why spend 70 for a product that is running at 90% when I could wait a few months and buy it for 30 and have it running at 100%? And that little problem is not getting any better.

 

[RUINER ACTUAL]

Why is it only the gaming industry, one of the most profitable industries in the world, bitches about used sales?

I don't hear ANY of this moaning from used car dealerships, used DVD sales, used books, nothing. Someone had to have bought the game new in order for used to exist; you already made your money.

Games hold value differently when used compared to those items. I've never heard of used DVD sales, except when Blockbuster purges their shelves. But in any case, movies are shown to the masses in theatres, which pays back the bulk of development. Used books are found in a library, or are fought over by college students, so of course they sell well. Used car dealerships are selling items that cost thousands of dollars. Of course they don't complain. A used game, on the other hand, was bought and the publisher made their money. But when someone buys a used game over a new one, the publisher gets no money, and the buyer gets the same experience as the person who bought it new. That's why.

 

[squid5580]

Why is it only the gaming industry, one of the most profitable industries in the world, bitches about used sales?

I don't hear ANY of this moaning from used car dealerships, used DVD sales, used books, nothing. Someone had to have bought the game new in order for used to exist; you already made your money.

Games hold value differently when used compared to those items. I've never heard of used DVD sales, except when Blockbuster purges their shelves. But in any case, movies are shown to the masses in theatres, which pays back the bulk of development. Used books are found in a library, or are fought over by college students, so of course they sell well. Used car dealerships are selling items that cost thousands of dollars. Of course they don't complain. A used game, on the other hand, was bought and the publisher made their money. But when someone buys a used game over a new one, the publisher gets no money, and the buyer gets the same experience as the person who bought it new. That's why.

So then why aren't clothing company CEOs railing against the Salvation Army? People are getting the same warmth from the coat that I paid $69.99 + tax for and later donated it and someone bought for $2.

 

[RUINER ACTUAL]

Why is it only the gaming industry, one of the most profitable industries in the world, bitches about used sales?

I don't hear ANY of this moaning from used car dealerships, used DVD sales, used books, nothing. Someone had to have bought the game new in order for used to exist; you already made your money.

Games hold value differently when used compared to those items. I've never heard of used DVD sales, except when Blockbuster purges their shelves. But in any case, movies are shown to the masses in theatres, which pays back the bulk of development. Used books are found in a library, or are fought over by college students, so of course they sell well. Used car dealerships are selling items that cost thousands of dollars. Of course they don't complain. A used game, on the other hand, was bought and the publisher made their money. But when someone buys a used game over a new one, the publisher gets no money, and the buyer gets the same experience as the person who bought it new. That's why.

So then why aren't clothing company CEOs railing against the Salvation Army? People are getting the same warmth from the coat that I paid $69.99 + tax for and later donated it and someone bought for $2.

Clothing is a necessity, video games are not. Plus the Salvation Army and Goodwill are charities.

 

[squid5580]

Why is it only the gaming industry, one of the most profitable industries in the world, bitches about used sales?

I don't hear ANY of this moaning from used car dealerships, used DVD sales, used books, nothing. Someone had to have bought the game new in order for used to exist; you already made your money.

Games hold value differently when used compared to those items. I've never heard of used DVD sales, except when Blockbuster purges their shelves. But in any case, movies are shown to the masses in theatres, which pays back the bulk of development. Used books are found in a library, or are fought over by college students, so of course they sell well. Used car dealerships are selling items that cost thousands of dollars. Of course they don't complain. A used game, on the other hand, was bought and the publisher made their money. But when someone buys a used game over a new one, the publisher gets no money, and the buyer gets the same experience as the person who bought it new. That's why.

So then why aren't clothing company CEOs railing against the Salvation Army? People are getting the same warmth from the coat that I paid $69.99 + tax for and later donated it and someone bought for $2.

Clothing is a necessity, video games are not. Plus the Salvation Army and Goodwill are charities.

And what does either of that have to do with the price of tomatoes. I could easily rhyme off a couple clothing consignment stores that aren't charities. And if they are necessities as you say then why are companies making millions off of them in the first place? Also Levi jeans or Tommy Hilfiger Jeans are not necessities. You can easily buy the cheap Walmart brand of jeans for 1/4 the cost. So why isn't Levis CEO or Tommy Hilfiger going after any of them?

 

[Draksila]

I just imagined this whole article in Andrew Ryan's voice.

"The parasite sees invention and says 'where's my share'!"

He, he, he!

I'm glad I wasn't the only one!

OT - I agree with the general sentiment that this is being blown way out of proportion. There are a lot of people who tire of a game or find it's not to their liking; by Mr. Castle's reckoning, these should all just be chucked in the trash. Used games are a method of recycling, just like used books and used CDs. They allow those who can't afford the exorbitant price of a new game to wait a while and buy a cheaper copy, thus enabling them to enjoy the game and possibly pay the publisher by purchasing some of the DLC that goes with it. I'm sorry to say, it makes less sense to fill landfills with copies of Modern Warfare 2 or the Sonic remake like they did with ET cartridges back in the Atari days. Used games are recycling, and recycling is good.

 

[Royas]

"Publishers are the ones who are taking all the risk," he believes. "They're paying for development, pay for the marketing - the retailer has zero risk. It's all consignment anyway: if a product doesn't sell, they box it up and send it back to the publisher. I'm sorry their margins are eroding, but that's not the publishers problem. To use a loophole in the law to just gouge them is just unacceptable."

That "loophole" is a very important part of property law here in the United States. The doctrine of first sale is critical to the economy as a whole. You buy something, you can sell it to someone else... period. Stop whining about it and deal with reality. The game industry is no different than any other industry... used products abound.

The retailers he so viciously attacks are the only reason game companies can exist. The majority of new games are sold through these same brick and mortar stores even today. The industry needs the devs and the publishers, but it needs the retailers just as much. It makes no sense to attack them like this. Plus, I'm just tired of seeing game executives bitching about used games. At least when they ***** about piracy, it's about something illegal.

 

[Draksila]

Why is it only the gaming industry, one of the most profitable industries in the world, bitches about used sales?

I don't hear ANY of this moaning from used car dealerships, used DVD sales, used books, nothing. Someone had to have bought the game new in order for used to exist; you already made your money.

Games hold value differently when used compared to those items. I've never heard of used DVD sales, except when Blockbuster purges their shelves. But in any case, movies are shown to the masses in theatres, which pays back the bulk of development. Used books are found in a library, or are fought over by college students, so of course they sell well. Used car dealerships are selling items that cost thousands of dollars. Of course they don't complain. A used game, on the other hand, was bought and the publisher made their money. But when someone buys a used game over a new one, the publisher gets no money, and the buyer gets the same experience as the person who bought it new. That's why.

Not to be rude, but I find this statement bizarre. Everywhere I've ever been has included stores that specialize in used books, music, and movies... and we're not talking obscure college textbooks or Blockbuster clearing their shelves. There are stores filled with anything from the aforementioned textbooks to encyclopedias to old National Geographics to recent Star Wars novels, shelf after shelf of VHS and DVD and BluRay movies, racks upon racks of used CDs from all genres of musical artists. Even in your average backwater city there's a flea market or swap-meet type location where some guy has a stall with nothing but used music and movies. The used industry has existed as long as the entertainment medium has, and for good reason; for decades people have found their taste in ideas and entertainment shifts from time to time. This leaves two options. Either you throw the books you no longer care to read and the cassettes or CDs or DVDs you no longer find amusing into a landfill somewhere and essentially cast out ideas that could be shared with others, or you find a person or store who can recycle them and give them new life with a new audience that appreciates them and gives them new value.

Frankly, as an entertainment medium, games are no different. Some people find what they have purchased to be outside of their tastes, especially if you don't have a good demo to let you know what you're getting into ahead of time. And some people just tire of certain titles. Does that mean that the game is now useless, and should be added to the massive amounts of garbage we have rotting around the world? For certain titles, maybe... (just kidding). Personally, though, I'd rather see someone else get use out of my castoffs than see it polluting the environment. And from that perspective, does it really matter whether I just hand a friend a game I'm done with or sell it to a used game store? Either way, the publisher's not getting a cut from the person I gave it to.

 

[Royas]

GameStop rang, Louis, and they told me to leave you a message: they invite you to bite their money-making, vitally important to the future survival of the games industry, shiny, metal arse.

I feel obligated to stop you there and correct you on one thing - GameStop is THE parasite of the industry. They buy used games for cheap then re-sell them at triple the original price as "used" without the case, booklet, often in terrible condition and way over the New price of any other decent retailer like Amazon.

I, in turn, feel obligated to stop you there and point out one important thing: Nobody is forcing anyone to sell their games to Gamestop, or to buy used games from Gamestop. Free market economy at work... obviously a lot of people are perfectly happy getting the amount they do from the store for their trades. And a lot of people are perfectly happy buying those trades later on. I have never seen anyone marched in there with a gun to their heads.

 

[RUINER ACTUAL]

Why is it only the gaming industry, one of the most profitable industries in the world, bitches about used sales?

I don't hear ANY of this moaning from used car dealerships, used DVD sales, used books, nothing. Someone had to have bought the game new in order for used to exist; you already made your money.

Games hold value differently when used compared to those items. I've never heard of used DVD sales, except when Blockbuster purges their shelves. But in any case, movies are shown to the masses in theatres, which pays back the bulk of development. Used books are found in a library, or are fought over by college students, so of course they sell well. Used car dealerships are selling items that cost thousands of dollars. Of course they don't complain. A used game, on the other hand, was bought and the publisher made their money. But when someone buys a used game over a new one, the publisher gets no money, and the buyer gets the same experience as the person who bought it new. That's why.

Not to be rude, but I find this statement bizarre. Everywhere I've ever been has included stores that specialize in used books, music, and movies... and we're not talking obscure college textbooks or Blockbuster clearing their shelves. There are stores filled with anything from the aforementioned textbooks to encyclopedias to old National Geographics to recent Star Wars novels, shelf after shelf of VHS and DVD and BluRay movies, racks upon racks of used CDs from all genres of musical artists. Even in your average backwater city there's a flea market or swap-meet type location where some guy has a stall with nothing but used music and movies. The used industry has existed as long as the entertainment medium has, and for good reason; for decades people have found their taste in ideas and entertainment shifts from time to time. This leaves two options. Either you throw the books you no longer care to read and the cassettes or CDs or DVDs you no longer find amusing into a landfill somewhere and essentially cast out ideas that could be shared with others, or you find a person or store who can recycle them and give them new life with a new audience that appreciates them and gives them new value.

Frankly, as an entertainment medium, games are no different. Some people find what they have purchased to be outside of their tastes, especially if you don't have a good demo to let you know what you're getting into ahead of time. And some people just tire of certain titles. Does that mean that the game is now useless, and should be added to the massive amounts of garbage we have rotting around the world? For certain titles, maybe... (just kidding). Personally, though, I'd rather see someone else get use out of my castoffs than see it polluting the environment. And from that perspective, does it really matter whether I just hand a friend a game I'm done with or sell it to a used game store? Either way, the publisher's not getting a cut from the person I gave it to.

Why is it only the gaming industry, one of the most profitable industries in the world, bitches about used sales?

I don't hear ANY of this moaning from used car dealerships, used DVD sales, used books, nothing. Someone had to have bought the game new in order for used to exist; you already made your money.

Games hold value differently when used compared to those items. I've never heard of used DVD sales, except when Blockbuster purges their shelves. But in any case, movies are shown to the masses in theatres, which pays back the bulk of development. Used books are found in a library, or are fought over by college students, so of course they sell well. Used car dealerships are selling items that cost thousands of dollars. Of course they don't complain. A used game, on the other hand, was bought and the publisher made their money. But when someone buys a used game over a new one, the publisher gets no money, and the buyer gets the same experience as the person who bought it new. That's why.

So then why aren't clothing company CEOs railing against the Salvation Army? People are getting the same warmth from the coat that I paid $69.99 + tax for and later donated it and someone bought for $2.

Clothing is a necessity, video games are not. Plus the Salvation Army and Goodwill are charities.

And what does either of that have to do with the price of tomatoes. I could easily rhyme off a couple clothing consignment stores that aren't charities. And if they are necessities as you say then why are companies making millions off of them in the first place? Also Levi jeans or Tommy Hilfiger Jeans are not necessities. You can easily buy the cheap Walmart brand of jeans for 1/4 the cost. So why isn't Levis CEO or Tommy Hilfiger going after any of them?

The point is, basically, the game is being sold without the publisher getting money for the sale of it. It's like free inventory for Gamestop. I agree with you that it seems the same as thrift stores and whatnot, but since when does it take a $100 million investment and 100+ people with college degrees in animation, engineering, and programming to make a pair of blue jeans?

 

[Cynical skeptic]

I wonder how long it will take to kill retail. I remember trading in my NES games at stores just like GS and yet 20 years later here we are.

Also how did I get the game to trade in in the first place if I didn't buy it? You logic is confused. Why am I going to steal something when I don't want to steal it? What is your fasination with associating used games to piracy? I mean Gamefly is a fuck of a lot closer to piracy than GS is. I also don't see how GS is fucking people over but a pawn shop isn't? They pay the same price as GS does (in terms of value vs how much they pay).

You seem to be misunderstanding where I am coming from. Whenever possible I buy new. If there is a game for 5 bucks less sitting next to a nicely wrapped game (with that new game smell) I will pay the extra 5. It is when I get it home and pop it in to find a big bouncing ball of disappointment that the game goes into the used game biz. The better the game the further it stays away from GS. So riddle me this. Why should I have to pay all that money for a product I am not satisfied with and then have to eat the entire cost? Not like anyone is going to give me a refund because I wasn't satisfied are they? So GS is my only way of getting some form of refund. Which goes back to my point. Make better games and you won't see so many used game sales because people are going to hoard them. Half ass it and enjoy the bed you made. Sounds perfectly fair to me.

Ah.

You see, if not for the used game bullshit, you'd be able to return crap games for a full refund. Instead, if you trade-in a bad game (for $3-$7, naturally), the retailer just sticks it on the shelf for 9 to 6 times the trade-in value. Which means every time a customer trades in a bad game, the retailers almost triple their profit.

Publishers commission dull games because they lack confidence in the market, the market responds by rewarding the retailers for not carrying very many new copies. Its a catch 22 because retailers aren't going to let publishers see any real money for their work and publishers aren't going to suddenly start taking risks.

As far as used games vs piracy, for a long time, piracy was the boogeyman. It was going to steal all the money and games and movies and music and destroy the entire entertainment industry, yadayadayada. The reason its relevant here is at one time, people thought in terms of every pirated copy was a lost sale. Then studies found people who pirate actually buy more of what they like, never would've bought a good deal of what they pirated, and a good portion aren't even in places viewed as viable markets by ... well, anyone.

During the peak of the piracy debate, publishers were losing money and blaming piracy while retailers quietly started posting record profits and experiencing unprecedented growth. Games were "selling" millions of copies but publishers were acting like they weren't getting any money from it. The peanut gallery just dismissed the publisher's claims as greed, overextension, idiocy, etc.

The reality is the used games business model is siphoning money away from people who matter, by using a legal loophole to essentially become extremely high profit rental chains. Difference being, first sale doctrine doesn't protect rentals. Blockbuster and such must turn over proceeds or buy "rental licenses" from copyright holders. So while publishers actually get money from rentals, they're being fucked by used "sales." They should be more openly pissed, but there isn't anything they can do. No legal recourse and retailers would defend the existence of that legal loophole to their very last dollar.

 

[Draksila]

Since the quote function has stopped working for me (*kicks browser*), this is addressing the above post (140) by Corroded Sin.

The Salvation Army comment by Squid was likely not the most apt comparison, but while it's true that game production teams put a lot of money and personnel into their products... well, the local used place has BluRay and DVD copies of Avatar, Iron Man, the Twilight movies, and the like. If used movies have been sold for decades without anyone raising an eyebrow and the film production companies have yet survived on their new DVD sales, why should such a thing break gaming companies? True, they may not have the initial box office take a film does, but these days they have something even better... DLC. For a minimal amount of production cost they can put a cosmetic item online, charge $2-$5 dollars for it, and rake in a buttload of cash. Just from the Sony side of things, look no further than Little Big Planet or Mod Nation Racers for proof of this. They release a tweak that makes your character look a little different and the fans buy like crazy. And this is income that, in theory, multiplies with used sales. Some completist buys Dragon Age and its DLC expansions, finishes the game and decides they don't want to keep a game they won't play again. They sell the disc to GameStop where it's bought by someone who needed that $10 off the new price before they could commit to the game... and then over the course of the next few weeks they also buy the DLC expansions. It's an infinite loop that shows that the smart money right now isn't in the game disc, it's in making compelling downloadable content that will be seen as a must have for anyone who owns the game.