Is chivalry dead?
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I actually have a blog post that I define chivalry in and ask the same question.
http://aprilmarie4203.blogspot.com/2010/09/chivalry.html
Its a long post so for those who don't like reading(ie most of the internet community don't read it for those interested go ahead)
In terms of honor, for the most part, yes chivalry is definitely dead. In terms of chivalry from movies, there is still a small percentage of men who practice acts such as that. I know a few of them. Half of them are gay. The other half well half are married and the other half are either uninterested or really not my type but they are good friends of mine and we all know where we stand with each other. I do believe in general politeness and the golden rule of treating others how you yourself would like to be treated. Unfortunately not everyone believes that so....
http://aprilmarie4203.blogspot.com/2010/09/chivalry.html
Its a long post so for those who don't like reading(ie most of the internet community don't read it for those interested go ahead)
In terms of honor, for the most part, yes chivalry is definitely dead. In terms of chivalry from movies, there is still a small percentage of men who practice acts such as that. I know a few of them. Half of them are gay. The other half well half are married and the other half are either uninterested or really not my type but they are good friends of mine and we all know where we stand with each other. I do believe in general politeness and the golden rule of treating others how you yourself would like to be treated. Unfortunately not everyone believes that so....
I'm more inclined to be polite and respect my elders more than people my own age(minus people with disabilities they get lumped in with elders as far as respect most of the time) but that is mostly to do with my upbringing. I shocked an older lady because I held the door for her and have a bunch of piercings in my ear and one in my lip.Sarahcidal said:
And most of those 20% I am convinced live in Southern California. Seriously. Finding a straight non asshole guy out here is damn near impossible.The .50 Caliber Cow said:
100% agreed.Saelune said:
I try to help everybody out weither it's holding does open, a polite greeting to a passer by, letting someone merge in traffic, or taking your neighbors garbage cans out on trash day.
Also it doesn't help my motivation when I hold the door open for a woman and she gives me the evil eye.
We have our fair share up here too. The Canadian's are nice stereotype falls apart on close inspection. Mind you, I moved to a city from a small town for awhile so I guess that factors in.aprilmarie said:
meh, i prefer to follow the "be polite to everyone except the ones that are a dick to me" and even then i won't be a dick to them in return, just indifferent and not specifically polite.
I got Ninja'd but that was so well put I really don't care. I would like to add though that I have never had anyone MIND that I held the door for them or gave up my seat or did anything else that was just to treat them as I'd like to be treated in their position and this last year while dealing with an injury that seriously affected my mobility I was amazed at how many folks went out of their way to help me that I didn't even know. So I believe that Chivalry as Saelune describes it is not dead and is in fact coming back into vogue. Lately especially I've seen quite a few examples of that "everything old is new again" feeling.Saelune said:
Hahaaa nooo ...guys hold the doors open for me, offer to carry my stuff, and offer me their jackets all the time. I've had a few fellows offer me their bus seats as well...
I get all embarrassed when people do that sort of thing for me :* but it's cute.
I'm pretty polite myself. Always hold the door open for folks, give up my bus seat for older folks, and some who just look tired. Make sure to say thanks to the bus driver, and the ladies who hand me my morning coffee.
I get all embarrassed when people do that sort of thing for me :* but it's cute.
I'm pretty polite myself. Always hold the door open for folks, give up my bus seat for older folks, and some who just look tired. Make sure to say thanks to the bus driver, and the ladies who hand me my morning coffee.
lol
Chivalry is not dead. I frequently ride my noble steed into a tourney in order to bring honour upon the house of benefactor. I also travelled east to slay the heathens in the holy name of our Lord! I am currently training a young squire who will soon take his vows and join our order. I declare all who say chivalry is dead to be knaves and villains!
Oh, wrong type of Chivarly.
The truth is the idea of being courteous to members of the fairer sex (as they are weaker and less able) is very much dead where I live (New Zealand). Most women here would look at a man strangly if he acted that way around them and assume that he was hoping his politeness would "pay off".
I suppose that the whole gender equality changed things a lot which is to be expected. Some women feel sad about this because they want the benefits (the man opens the restaurant door when they are on a date) which came with men behaving in this way like but don't want all the negatives that came with it (the man decides what she will eat and drink at the restaurant). Part of it stemmed from the attitude that women were helpless and couldn't make their own decisions therefore needed to be helped, another part from men trying to impress women. To be honest, like the original version of chivalry (as described above) I'm not sad its gone.
Oh, wrong type of Chivarly.
The truth is the idea of being courteous to members of the fairer sex (as they are weaker and less able) is very much dead where I live (New Zealand). Most women here would look at a man strangly if he acted that way around them and assume that he was hoping his politeness would "pay off".
I suppose that the whole gender equality changed things a lot which is to be expected. Some women feel sad about this because they want the benefits (the man opens the restaurant door when they are on a date) which came with men behaving in this way like but don't want all the negatives that came with it (the man decides what she will eat and drink at the restaurant). Part of it stemmed from the attitude that women were helpless and couldn't make their own decisions therefore needed to be helped, another part from men trying to impress women. To be honest, like the original version of chivalry (as described above) I'm not sad its gone.
I just highlighted all the sexist parts in your post that mysteriously you missed, when you whined about women being treated like men a.k.a like an equal person.Everin said:
I think it is incredible disturbing to see someone in the year 2011 crawling up womens asses that much, as expressed here in your post:
Everin said:
Being an equal means not having any preferred treatment... showing respect in general is possible (and should be common practice).Everin said:
As most people are already stating its quite normal to hold the door open for anyone behind you, which is also just showing respect.
Showing 'extra' respect to the female gender is not even necessary because you want to be treated like an equal. Don't double-standardize all of this, you're either an equal or a girl don't go around saying you're an equal but want to be treated like a special being... don't be a hypocrite now...
Note: I do actually court my female friends as in formally opening a door or even the car door to let them go in first letting them sit down first and taking the bill... but then again most of them are the "family mom" type girls... at my office it's all businessladies so they can easily handle stuff themselves (imo)...
I think I see what you're aiming at here, and I would say that 1) yes, chivalry can go hand in hand with equal rights. I do believe that treating both genders equally is not the same as making an effort to comport one's self as a gentleman.
I'll give you an example which I think applies to what the OP is suggesting. I work for a security firm, and the client that I work at has both male and female employees. Now if I happen to be around and about the door to the office and not busy with anything, and one of the ladies (regardless of age or appearance) is coming into the office, I will take a few steps out of the way to open and hold the door. I don't necessarily do this for other males, unless of course they're carrying something and need assistance or they happen to be following me in or out of the building. The reason I make an effort to do this brings me to the next point that
2) Chivalry is, for the most part, dead. To me chivalry is, more than holding open doors or pulling out chairs, also about behavior. I'm not at all trying to exaggerate when I say that I think I am the only male at my place of work who make it through the whole day (let alone my whole two years) without making some kind of innuendo, leering, gawking, or other piggish remark about the ladies there.
I may find some of the ladies at my place of work to be attractive, and yes, I most certainly do find the female form to be very beautiful, but I'll be damned if I can't compose myself like a gentlemen and act like it.
So... yeah, I think the concept of chivalry (atleast in my mind) has more to do with your behavior and how you act in general, not just around the opposite sex. You can hold all the doors in the world open for both men and women, but the moment you turn around and disrespectful comment or gesture, then you're no longer being a gentleman, and no longer being chivalrous.
Captcha:
tsHath evoive
I'll give you an example which I think applies to what the OP is suggesting. I work for a security firm, and the client that I work at has both male and female employees. Now if I happen to be around and about the door to the office and not busy with anything, and one of the ladies (regardless of age or appearance) is coming into the office, I will take a few steps out of the way to open and hold the door. I don't necessarily do this for other males, unless of course they're carrying something and need assistance or they happen to be following me in or out of the building. The reason I make an effort to do this brings me to the next point that
2) Chivalry is, for the most part, dead. To me chivalry is, more than holding open doors or pulling out chairs, also about behavior. I'm not at all trying to exaggerate when I say that I think I am the only male at my place of work who make it through the whole day (let alone my whole two years) without making some kind of innuendo, leering, gawking, or other piggish remark about the ladies there.
I may find some of the ladies at my place of work to be attractive, and yes, I most certainly do find the female form to be very beautiful, but I'll be damned if I can't compose myself like a gentlemen and act like it.
So... yeah, I think the concept of chivalry (atleast in my mind) has more to do with your behavior and how you act in general, not just around the opposite sex. You can hold all the doors in the world open for both men and women, but the moment you turn around and disrespectful comment or gesture, then you're no longer being a gentleman, and no longer being chivalrous.
Captcha:
tsHath evoive
Chivalry is on life support.
And its adoption will remain limited to the relative minority (of which I, for the record, am one) who consider it a distinction worth their time until it becomes a more effective tactic in the ongoing semi-stalemate of the Battle of Get Oneself Laid.
Therein lies a sort of irony, that so long as chivalry remains only marginally popular with the ladies, its adherents will be few, such that questions of this sort can be raised and debated at some length. On the other hand, those who bother to maintain a chivalrous air against the present grain alone can be considered gentlemen, and not merely trend-followers.
But to answer OP's question:
Yes, of course chivalric behavior and equal rights can go together. The economic, social and legal equalities to which all women, as citizens and human beings, are due is in no way infringed by a seat offered or door held. A man who bothers to keep his checking out of the fairer sex to a discreet glance does not do so out of contempt, or so I would wager.
And its adoption will remain limited to the relative minority (of which I, for the record, am one) who consider it a distinction worth their time until it becomes a more effective tactic in the ongoing semi-stalemate of the Battle of Get Oneself Laid.
Therein lies a sort of irony, that so long as chivalry remains only marginally popular with the ladies, its adherents will be few, such that questions of this sort can be raised and debated at some length. On the other hand, those who bother to maintain a chivalrous air against the present grain alone can be considered gentlemen, and not merely trend-followers.
But to answer OP's question:
Yes, of course chivalric behavior and equal rights can go together. The economic, social and legal equalities to which all women, as citizens and human beings, are due is in no way infringed by a seat offered or door held. A man who bothers to keep his checking out of the fairer sex to a discreet glance does not do so out of contempt, or so I would wager.
Chivalry may be dead (and really, in its purest sense there is no 'need' for it now), but good manners and small kindnesses are always nice.
The key is these days that they be reciprocated.
Women (to make a huge generalization) aren't actually looking for the 'best of both worlds' in the sense of wanting 'equality' + 'chivalry'. We just want to be accorded equal rights with men. Equal rights are not the same thing as manners.
Argh, how to put this. Let's put it this way. Holding a door open for someone is a respectful gesture - a man would hold the door for his male superior, or a male colleague who is a friend, just as he might hold it for a woman. This is the thing - to stop seeing a difference between a respectful or kind gesture and a chivalrous one, when they're often the same physical action. I know that doesn't hold up for all 'chivalrous' actions, but a number of them translate rather easily.
My only issue is with the subset of men who think that women having 'equal rights' means that they can be rude to women, oddly. Like this would be the sort of person who would hold the door for a male superior or friend, but let it slam in the face of his female colleague because 'well, she can look out for herself'. I know these people are not the majority of men, but equality for women has bred, interestingly, a new kind of militant chauvinist - he still doesn't respect women, but now uses 'equality' to punish them instead of outright (traditional?) 'sexism'. I mention this probably only because I have met one or two. I do not mean to suggest that 'men' are like this in general.
The key is these days that they be reciprocated.
Women (to make a huge generalization) aren't actually looking for the 'best of both worlds' in the sense of wanting 'equality' + 'chivalry'. We just want to be accorded equal rights with men. Equal rights are not the same thing as manners.
Argh, how to put this. Let's put it this way. Holding a door open for someone is a respectful gesture - a man would hold the door for his male superior, or a male colleague who is a friend, just as he might hold it for a woman. This is the thing - to stop seeing a difference between a respectful or kind gesture and a chivalrous one, when they're often the same physical action. I know that doesn't hold up for all 'chivalrous' actions, but a number of them translate rather easily.
My only issue is with the subset of men who think that women having 'equal rights' means that they can be rude to women, oddly. Like this would be the sort of person who would hold the door for a male superior or friend, but let it slam in the face of his female colleague because 'well, she can look out for herself'. I know these people are not the majority of men, but equality for women has bred, interestingly, a new kind of militant chauvinist - he still doesn't respect women, but now uses 'equality' to punish them instead of outright (traditional?) 'sexism'. I mention this probably only because I have met one or two. I do not mean to suggest that 'men' are like this in general.
as dave chappelle already told us, women killed it. they sure as hell killed it for me; my every act of minor politeness seen as creepy and desperate while they all went to marry emotionally unstable losers who verbally and physically abuse them.
women want weak, unstable, sometimes even unattractive men to control and 'fix', 90% of the time leading to horrible relationships and domestic abuse cases that they fail at several relationship red flags to predict. at least, thats my experience with nearly all women; i take sturgeons law into account ("90% of everything is crap"; extending that to female dating trends), but even then, its painfully obvious to me that women dont even WANT chivalry at all.
so you can open your own god damn door.
women want weak, unstable, sometimes even unattractive men to control and 'fix', 90% of the time leading to horrible relationships and domestic abuse cases that they fail at several relationship red flags to predict. at least, thats my experience with nearly all women; i take sturgeons law into account ("90% of everything is crap"; extending that to female dating trends), but even then, its painfully obvious to me that women dont even WANT chivalry at all.
so you can open your own god damn door.
Point of curiosity, OP - in your view of the situation, how is being chivalrous towards women different from simply being polite in general?
You can hold a door open for someone not because of chivalry, and having nothing to do with their gender, but simply because you're being polite. When sufficiently examined, old-school chivalry actually has some pretty well-hidden interpretational sexism in it. On the surface it might seem like the intention is simply to be polite, and if that's as deep as it goes, that's all well and good. But if it's a politeness that only is extended because of the recipient's gender, well that's something else. It sends a message, intentionally or not, that oh you're a woman, then let me handle this for you. Clearly you need protecting and tending after. It's subtly disempowering. It's patronizing and slightly overbearing. Imagine an over-attentive mother who steps in to do everything for her adult child. Not pleasant in the right light, is it?
Good manners have value in and of themselves. It needn't be anything more than that.
You can hold a door open for someone not because of chivalry, and having nothing to do with their gender, but simply because you're being polite. When sufficiently examined, old-school chivalry actually has some pretty well-hidden interpretational sexism in it. On the surface it might seem like the intention is simply to be polite, and if that's as deep as it goes, that's all well and good. But if it's a politeness that only is extended because of the recipient's gender, well that's something else. It sends a message, intentionally or not, that oh you're a woman, then let me handle this for you. Clearly you need protecting and tending after. It's subtly disempowering. It's patronizing and slightly overbearing. Imagine an over-attentive mother who steps in to do everything for her adult child. Not pleasant in the right light, is it?
Good manners have value in and of themselves. It needn't be anything more than that.
Well my answer to this would be yes it is too much in the way that you're talking about. Now I am male but I was raised by my mother who is quite the feminist and I have to say I feel annoyed by chivalry. I don't like the idea that I hold doors open for a woman because I'm obliged to, I hold doors open for anyone because that's the right thing to do. If we go to a restaurant for our first date we split the bill (obviously romantic surprise dinners further down the line are different), if a woman made me feel threatened and I couldn't get out of a fight I'd feel no guilt over fighting back.Everin said: