Is chivalry dead?

[MarxII]

Yes, chivalry is dead, and thank fuck for that.

Finally we can stop having to walk around with all these tired stereotypes and now related to other humans as persons instead of reducing them to their gender all the time.

I'd say this reveals a considerable misunderstanding of the word 'chivalry.'

 

[Uskis]

Yes, chivalry is dead, and thank fuck for that.

Finally we can stop having to walk around with all these tired stereotypes and now related to other humans as persons instead of reducing them to their gender all the time.

I'd say this reveals a considerable misunderstanding of the word 'chivalry.'

How is that a considerable misunderstanding? The idea that the proper man is someone who acts gentle to women because of their fragile nature and need to be serviced I would say is a stereotype. Chivalry is not the same as politeness which goes all ways, but a gender-exclusive concept enforcing a stereotypical notion of "true" masculinity.

I don't mind if you and your partner enjoys this, by all means knock yourself out. I just hate it when people who lament the "loss of chivalry", as if it is some sort of universal good thing in society.

 

[Kortney]

The changing of societies views on etiquette is not "killing" anything. It's social evolution and it is an intrinsic part of being human.

Is the Middle Ages sense of "Chivalry" dead? Yes. Of course it is - and for good reason.

 

[Astoria]

Sadly since many women today are offended by chivalry it is now considered rude and therefore yes, its dead in the general population in much of the world.

Yeah this which makes me sad. My boyfriend holds doors open for me and such though which makes me feel special.

 

[Vakz]

The problem with Chivalry is that it is aimed only at women. I hold the door open for everyone and anyone who is nearby. Old men, young men, old women, young women.

I also am not a man myself.

There is a better name for Chivalry that fits well in equal society. Politeness and manners.

This, exactly. Chivalry was when you were nice and decent towards women, while treating every other man as an "competitor". When the day came that people realized they should be nice and kind towards everyone else, chivalry become, as is said in the quote, politeness and manners.

 

[Ikaruga33]

In the modern times we live in many people believe that chivalry and equal rights can't go hand in hand. But chivalry is the small things you do, such as hold a door open for a women or pull the chair out for them or wait for them to sit before sitting yourself. And I'm here to ask the Escapist, can equal rights between genders and chivalric values be maintained together? Or is it one or the other in an absolute sense?
And why?
I believe that they can be current in today's society, women can still have the same or even more rights then men in many situations, but does that mean we have to stop treating them how most of them deserve to be treated? Is it too much to show some respect to the female gender?

Men and women are completely equal in evrey regard and thus holding a door open just for women is silly

However holding a door open out of courtosey (for any gender) is okay

And as for no violence against women. How about we just dont hit anyone?

If your stronger than someone and you hit them your a prick

If your weaker and you hit someone you get our ass kicked

If you extremely weak and you hit someone (as in so weak you cant do shit) they just do nothing and you look silly

 

[Vakz]

If it became 'politness and manners' then shouldn't that mean it would work both ways?

But it doesn't, does it, it's still expected to be a one way street. OP still wants her chair pulled out and her door opened for her.. selfish and unrealistic.

Actually, not everyone finds it that bad. I, for one, do to some degree enjoy doing those extra small things. I do occasionally pull out a chair for a girl. Same thing with the door.

It doesn't happen that often though. Most girls will simply do it themselves without a second thought, meaning I would just look stupid if I tried to get ahead of them to do it. But when the moment seems right, I do it.

 

[FirmartheTrilby]

It better be dead! It's just another made up bullshit from society. I really hate all this hypocrisy stuffs. Another thing about "chivalry" is that women tend to abuse it heck even teachers do it in school and it just irritates me because women talk how they want to be equal and so on (and don't get me wrong I think it's right thing and I fully support women in it!) but when they get first chance most of women go and abuse so called chivalry. I suppose it can go in hand with equal rights if it's not abused but you know what? I treat everyone same, when I don't rush I hold door for both males and females no matter how old they are but if you are not exactly nice person I don't care if you are male or female or if you are kid or pensioner I am going to be honest with you and I may be even rude if you go too far.

 

[MarxII]

How is that a considerable misunderstanding? The idea that the proper man is someone who acts gentle to women because of their fragile nature and need to be serviced I would say is a stereotype. Chivalry is not the same as politeness which goes all ways, but a gender-exclusive concept enforcing a stereotypical notion of "true" masculinity.

I don't mind if you and your partner enjoys this, by all means knock yourself out. I just hate it when people who lament the "loss of chivalry", as if it is some sort of universal good thing in society.

Where you err is in your notion that chivalry is rooted in a condescending view of the fairer sex, and that it is in effect some manner of pervasive brainworm which in itself disallows an essentially equitable exchange amongst genders.

But it's not just at you I direct this, rather I detect throughout the thread a meme equating chivalrous conduct with a unambiguously Victorian world view.

 

[Strixvaliano]

The problem with Chivalry is that it is aimed only at women. I hold the door open for everyone and anyone who is nearby. Old men, young men, old women, young women.

I also am not a man myself.

There is a better name for Chivalry that fits well in equal society. Politeness and manners.

I was about to say the same thing, I don't hold a door open because someone is a woman, I hold it open because it is the polite thing to do, no matter what gender, looks, etc.

To me chivalry is just an excuse for someone to try and make contact with the opposite sex or to try and impress them by being courteous with the hopes of gaining something out of it.

People will argue up and down there is no ulterior motive but watch how many people would be "chivalrous" towards a super model then they would toward someone that societal pressure and standards deems less attractive.

 

[Vault101]

it's definately dead. all boys care about is sex, which turns women into sluts with low self esteem. I feel like the only gentleman in a sea of animals. and as for feminists who don't want the door held for them, I say they should accept gender difference, rather than trying to claim that men and women are EXACTLY the same. they're not. get over it.

?....(assuming your not joking)

you dont sound like a gentleman you sound like a mysoganist from the 1950's (just telling what I see)

Im not offended by being treated special because Im female (I find it flattering) but my point is you guys dotn NEED to treat us special because we are women, the Idea is that you treat EVERYONE with a basic level of respect regardless of gender..thats equality

oh....and no I will NOT accept the stupid outdated Ideals:

Women need a man to protect them
Women's purpose in life is have children
a Woman's place is in the kitchen

I WILL accept

Men are physically stronger and more athletic than women...whcih is reflected in Work requiring physical strength



I mean honestly some men....complain that we expect/ and are treated special, then act all offended when we reject being treated special

 

[Bobbovski]

I sure hope it's dead... and that it's been replaced with politeness/helpfulness towards everyone instead.

 

[Deadyawn]

I was going to complain about this a bit but it seems the majority of the escapist has my back on this one. Equality is not up for interpretation. It is a definitive term and you can't bend it one way or the other. When it all comes down to it men and women aren't that different and we should be treated as such. Considerations should be taken into account for the small things in their own contexts but apart from that there should not be any distinctions.

 

[Nickolai77]

Someone linked their blog to this thread and i found this useful little picture:

Let's go through it shall we?

On Fair Play: I am amused how torture is something you should "avoid", but you should never attack someone from behind. I've never understood the concept of "fair play" in fighting. When committing to violence, the two things that matter is the defeat of your opponent and your own survival, not if the violence is fair or not. If someone was trying to kill me, i would use every dirty trick in the book to ensure my own survival, it's just not something you compromise on.

Nobility: Some good, some bad. For one, administering justice? Going vigalantie would today contradict "obey the law". And of course, not all laws are just, so i wouldn't obey them. Protect the innocent is however a good one, but i'm not sure about respect for authority. Yes, people as individuals deserve a base-line of respect, but authority should be readily questioned if you think it's wrong. And as for respecting women, shouldn't you approach anyone, regardless of sex, with a certain amount of respect anyway?

Valor: I find avenging the wrong a little ambiguous. Does this mean going vigilante again? Fighting with honour is also ambiguous, plus as already said as far as i am concerned you fight for survival. Still, agree with some other points like being loyal to allies, friends and causes and promoting courage.

Honour: I would as a principle keep my word, but in the interests of survival then it is permissible to lie. Same goes for deception, but i agree with most of the other points there. This includes respect for life...albeit my respect for life does not extend to wasps and spiders, i hate the bloody creatures and will kill them without a second thought.

Courtesy: How about, as a general principle which may be over-written in certain cases, be polite to one another, regardless of station or gender?

Loyalty: Eh, i'm an atheist, being loyal to non-existant entities sounds fun. As for sovereign and country, only if i agree with my countries political policies. As for the code of chivalry? Well see above.

Finally, i'm not trying to be funny here and nor am i taking this thing seriously...i'm just being...critical of something that does not deserve serious criticism...if you get what i mean.

Anyone in favour of re-writing the code of chivalry into something more modern and relevant?

 

[Uskis]

How is that a considerable misunderstanding? The idea that the proper man is someone who acts gentle to women because of their fragile nature and need to be serviced I would say is a stereotype. Chivalry is not the same as politeness which goes all ways, but a gender-exclusive concept enforcing a stereotypical notion of "true" masculinity.

I don't mind if you and your partner enjoys this, by all means knock yourself out. I just hate it when people who lament the "loss of chivalry", as if it is some sort of universal good thing in society.

Where you err is in your notion that chivalry is rooted in a condescending view of the fairer sex, and that it is in effect some manner of pervasive brainworm which in itself disallows an essentially equitable exchange amongst genders.

But it's not just at you I direct this, rather I detect throughout the thread a meme equating chivalrous conduct with a unambiguously Victorian world view.

Using terms such as "the fairer sex" is what I mean with reducing someone to their gender and attributing them characteristics. It's not necessarily condescending in the "get back to the kitchen" type of old-school misogyny, but it's an articulation of gender in a way that limits the way we perceive gender. The truly pervasive brain-worm is gender as a rigid dichotomy that carries certain characteristics. I'm not yelling at you in any way I'm just so tired of the idea that gender should carry a certain behavior.

I supposed you don't mean it the other way when you talk about chivalry right? Or does it go both ways? Would you like a women to take out your chair as a gesture of affection?.

 

[Tonimata]

I think that as long as I live, it won't

 

[The Gnome King]

In the modern times we live in many people believe that chivalry and equal rights can't go hand in hand. But chivalry is the small things you do, such as hold a door open for a women or pull the chair out for them or wait for them to sit before sitting yourself. And I'm here to ask the Escapist, can equal rights between genders and chivalric values be maintained together? Or is it one or the other in an absolute sense?
And why?
I believe that they can be current in today's society, women can still have the same or even more rights then men in many situations, but does that mean we have to stop treating them how most of them deserve to be treated? Is it too much to show some respect to the female gender?

I'm more inclined to hold the door open for an elderly man with a cane than a healthy, young woman. I think a lot of it has to do with anger at reproductive rights in this country.

Most men I know support the right of a woman to have an abortion but a large portion of them also feel that they should have the right to a "legal abortion" of their unwanted children.

I *have* known women - an ex girlfriend of mine actually - who had an abortion with nary a second thought. She was 16 and happy to get one. Many other women don't have "lifetimes of regret" like some feminists claim, either. See this one example:

http://www.thanksabortion.com/abortion-did-change-me-and-it-changed-me-for-the-better/

Now, a man who is forced to pay child support for 18 years has, I think, a greater burden than pregnancy or abortion. An abortion, from the ones I've driven female friends to, can be an outpatient procedure where they give you some Xanax, send you home, and you're at college or work again the next day.

For a man who is forced to pay child support for a child he didn't want to a woman he doesn't love - I've seen this as well. One of my former employees had a life basically ruined by having a child with a woman, they were both 17, she found a judge that basically took EVERY parental right away from him - he couldn't even see his daughter - and yet still required that he pay the mother child support. He'll be paying for that for 18 years and with none of the joy that normally comes with parenting.

I think rectifying the reproductive monopoly women have on childbearing and abortion would go a long way to restore some of this "lost chivalry" - not to mention that more women than men go to college now, meaning our next generation in the workforce will probably consist of better educated, better paid women and men who are worse off.

Add this to women pushing for the "right" to full front-line combat duties in the military - they want to be treated *exactly* like men - and one has to wonder... why *would* you be chivalrous when it was originally a way for the "stronger sex" to show respect and deference to the "weaker sex" - and now with the equal rights movement, women are no longer seen as weaker.

So why shouldn't that young woman hold open the door for the doddering old man with the cane?

(Personal aside - I believe in being chivalrous to everyone, male or female, and I'll hold the door open for a guy carrying, say, a huge stack of grocery bags trying to enter his flat just as soon as I would do it for a woman. It's called being kind to all humans, and respecting them all equally - male or female.)

 

[Mr Somewhere]

Chivalry never really existed outside of courtly romance fiction. Most knights, or men of the sword, or what have you never really followed the code. Same can be said for Bushido. So no it isn't dead, it never really lived.

 

[Shadowtek]

Thanks to feminism, yea, its dead. You never know if your going to get b*tched at just for being nice just because "they can do that"

 

[ZtH]

I try to hold the door for everyone and be polite. I really hate it when woman assume you only do it for them and take issue with it. To be frank and offensive "***** it's not always about you." It makes me want to slam the door on their face when they do that.

On the other hand most people get that you're holding the door for everyone not just their particular social group and any time someone says thank you it makes me smile. Being polite to everyone improves most relations.