Is chivalry dead?
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Chivalry only wishes it was dead. It wanders the earth a ghastly undead abomination with its insatiable cravings reducing it to more and more of a psychotic mess.
edit: after reading some posts, I feel bad for the people who have actually gotten negative responses. the worst Iv seen is a guy got laughed at by a girl for bringing her flowers; and in all fairness, thats what you get for thinking that approach will work on a girl who works at McDonalds and does oxycontin as her main hobby.
I live in Maine, where a lot the daily bullshit people have to deal with just doesnt exist. If you go to the right areas, you might find some unhinged rednecks, but its nothing like what you might find in say the Georgia mountains, or the Florida swamps. As far as chivalry though, It doesnt work to impress girls (except that tiny niche group) but it still gets a polite reception. On average the intelligence level, empathy level, and neighborly attitude vastly exceeds the national average. Doing something nice or polite with usually be received with a smile or more likely a verbal thanks.
I have actually found that girls will claim to like these gestures. I suppose thats not a lie per se, but thats not the same as attracting them. They like to feel special, but they will later make fun of the guys who where stupid enough to think that this would attract them.
You want to know what chivalry has been replaced with? Coolness. That "it" factor. That thing you cant define, but know when you see it. I know that doesnt help, but what do you expect from a fellow forum dwelling geek. Most of the time its large amounts of confidence with a sprinkle of making them laugh, but all in all you have to pique their interest. Compare it to a video game. Attractive box art is nice, but its not as important as the hype (getting her friends to like you) and the hook (what makes you different from all of the other swinging Johnsons hitting hon her). If the hook gets a bite, and even if things are going perfectly, it just takes a little bit of lag, or a bad cut scene, or too many loading screens, or bad camera controls to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
I hope this gives some people food for thought. Im sure its just a bunch of noise.
edit: after reading some posts, I feel bad for the people who have actually gotten negative responses. the worst Iv seen is a guy got laughed at by a girl for bringing her flowers; and in all fairness, thats what you get for thinking that approach will work on a girl who works at McDonalds and does oxycontin as her main hobby.
I live in Maine, where a lot the daily bullshit people have to deal with just doesnt exist. If you go to the right areas, you might find some unhinged rednecks, but its nothing like what you might find in say the Georgia mountains, or the Florida swamps. As far as chivalry though, It doesnt work to impress girls (except that tiny niche group) but it still gets a polite reception. On average the intelligence level, empathy level, and neighborly attitude vastly exceeds the national average. Doing something nice or polite with usually be received with a smile or more likely a verbal thanks.
I have actually found that girls will claim to like these gestures. I suppose thats not a lie per se, but thats not the same as attracting them. They like to feel special, but they will later make fun of the guys who where stupid enough to think that this would attract them.
You want to know what chivalry has been replaced with? Coolness. That "it" factor. That thing you cant define, but know when you see it. I know that doesnt help, but what do you expect from a fellow forum dwelling geek. Most of the time its large amounts of confidence with a sprinkle of making them laugh, but all in all you have to pique their interest. Compare it to a video game. Attractive box art is nice, but its not as important as the hype (getting her friends to like you) and the hook (what makes you different from all of the other swinging Johnsons hitting hon her). If the hook gets a bite, and even if things are going perfectly, it just takes a little bit of lag, or a bad cut scene, or too many loading screens, or bad camera controls to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
I hope this gives some people food for thought. Im sure its just a bunch of noise.
No it isn't, if you can give me a reason as to why I should show women more respect than I show men. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that women should be treated worse or that women are somehow inferior, but I don't see why I should be holding doors open and pulling out chairs. When women were nothing more than care takers of both house and children this kind of thing made sense, because the sexes weren't considered equal by society. But we're all people and having a vagina no longer automatically means you deserve more respect than the other half of the population.Everin said:
Being a single male college student that's the angle I'm looking at this from. Doing little things like that for someone you've been married to for years is a completely different story. When you go on a date with a women at least one of your biggest goals is to have sex. Any man that denies this is lying to himself or is asexual. Doing things that would be considered chivalrous is not going to help you achieve this goal. In my experience most women who see a guy they're dating doing these kinds of things will just think that he's trying too hard.
I'm not afraid to let a guy know what he's doing something wrong and using some physical force to help enunciate the point. I'd never do that to a woman, so there is a stated difference on how I treat them. I treat women much softer, and better than men, and that difference should be at least noted, if not appreciated.Fagotto said:
I mean, I'd never grab a womans throat and demand my friend's wallet back, but I've done it multiple times to guys (with success, I might add)
Chivalry is basic manners, but with women so independant these days, it's needed less and less, you might be extra polite to a female you happen to be dating or one you see struggling, but you don't go around being polite and wonderful to all females and disregard the fellow man or older people, that doesn't make sense.
Like someone said, common decency, if you were brought up right and learnt to respect others the way you wish to be respected yourself, it's only right you are treated as such.
If chivalry was constantly aimed at females, it would seem a little rude for it to be okay for a female to let the drop swing in my face, not give up her seat when I get older or have a young child with me or other simple things like that, female or male, politeness and respect goes both ways.
Like someone said, common decency, if you were brought up right and learnt to respect others the way you wish to be respected yourself, it's only right you are treated as such.
If chivalry was constantly aimed at females, it would seem a little rude for it to be okay for a female to let the drop swing in my face, not give up her seat when I get older or have a young child with me or other simple things like that, female or male, politeness and respect goes both ways.
thank you! I hate it when I'm trying to be a gentleman and I get a bitchy response from a feminist, who apparently doesn't want to be treated well. ok then, next time I guess I'll let that door slam in your face like a compleat asshole, because apparently those are the kind of people you would rather be around.Shadowtek said:Thanks to feminism, yea, its dead. You never know if your going to get b*tched at just for being nice just because "they can do that"
Well women have been up our asses since time began, now they can feel the sting of bullshit.Kashrlyyk said:
chivalry is an anachronism. Why would we want to keep such a thing as an actual THING in our modern world? Chivalry (at least in regards to women, which is really its only meaning these days) stems from the idea that women are worth less then men, and chivalry is supposed to make things easier on the weak women you have regular contact with, if you're a good guy.
We know that's a whole lot of hokum these days. Women are just as strong as men in many ways. They don't need to be treated like fragile dolls. So the idea of Chivalry is based on something that just isn't true, and in today's society should actually be INSULTING to women, rather then complimentary. If you hold a door open for a woman, in a chivalrous society it says "You are not strong enough to open this door" or "You needn't strain yourself against this door, I will open it for you." How is that not insulting? A woman can open a door.
Now, if you want to open a door for a person out of common courtesy - you're opening the door anyway, why does it need to be closed and opened between each person? that's just silly. Go right ahead. I do it. I do a lot of things that would appear "chivalrous", but I don't do it out of Chivalry, I do it to be a good person, help everyone out. Sure, on a date, a little of this chivalrous action might help win you some points with your woman, but don't put too much thought into it. It really is an anachronistic mindset that needs to go away.
We know that's a whole lot of hokum these days. Women are just as strong as men in many ways. They don't need to be treated like fragile dolls. So the idea of Chivalry is based on something that just isn't true, and in today's society should actually be INSULTING to women, rather then complimentary. If you hold a door open for a woman, in a chivalrous society it says "You are not strong enough to open this door" or "You needn't strain yourself against this door, I will open it for you." How is that not insulting? A woman can open a door.
Now, if you want to open a door for a person out of common courtesy - you're opening the door anyway, why does it need to be closed and opened between each person? that's just silly. Go right ahead. I do it. I do a lot of things that would appear "chivalrous", but I don't do it out of Chivalry, I do it to be a good person, help everyone out. Sure, on a date, a little of this chivalrous action might help win you some points with your woman, but don't put too much thought into it. It really is an anachronistic mindset that needs to go away.
very very true. There's nothing wrong with holding a door open for anyone. But the idea of chivalrous really is "They can't" or "They shouldn't have to", and it's a dangerous mindset, especially when men feel that somehow being chivalrous should give them extra benefits, and they get bitter because they're not getting those benefits. Really fucking dangerous imo.xMelior said:
The respect you're referring to here isn't the respect one shows to an equal citizen, it's the adulation one shows to an object that has been idolised. Chivalry and gender equality are mutually exclusive with some provisos:Everin said:
If you are heterosexual and are being 'chivalrous' to court a woman then so be it, that's fine. All issues of gender equality as related to heterosexuality are a no go since non-bisexuality/asexuality is necessarily sexist.
If your 'chivalrous' behaviour is literally no different than you would show a man then that's fine, that's not sexism it's just respectfulness.
If your chivalrous behaviour is aimed solely at women with no regard for sexuality then you're a sexist unless you can find a justification to treat women differently to men that doesn't rely upon their gender. Seriously, if you can't then you are a sexist.
Was chivalry ever even alive?
Most things listed here are just common courtesies that you'd hope would be extended to you, and that hopefully you'd extent to others in turn.
The real 'chivalry' was some half-baked notion that massacring non-Christians was a good, holy thing. Knights in shining armour? Bullshit. They were hardened killers.
Most things listed here are just common courtesies that you'd hope would be extended to you, and that hopefully you'd extent to others in turn.
The real 'chivalry' was some half-baked notion that massacring non-Christians was a good, holy thing. Knights in shining armour? Bullshit. They were hardened killers.
The problem is that Feminism isn't one distinct theory. Liberal Feminists argue for equal rights, Marxist feminists argue for 'positive equality' (i.e. unless everything is 100% 50/50 across the genders it's sexist; yes, this theory is a load of horse shit) and so on.TU4AR said:
What annoys one feminist pleases another.
People hold doors open for me, i've had some people give up their seat for me on trains before and ocassionally i get guys offering me food/money if i casually mention i'm hungry. One of my male friends...all i have to do is shiver and the top layer of his clothing comes off to be given to me instead (or any other girl in the same situation).
I wouldn't say chivalry is completely dead. There are some amazing guys out there who are true gentlemen.
Those feminists that get annoyed about having doors opened for them do my head in though. Its a damn door. Just say thank you and go on your way.
I wouldn't say chivalry is completely dead. There are some amazing guys out there who are true gentlemen.
Those feminists that get annoyed about having doors opened for them do my head in though. Its a damn door. Just say thank you and go on your way.
I wanted to say something like that but couldn't think of the words, Thanks for the help!Fagotto said:
What I meant was that women who ***** at you when you're polite to them probably wouldn't have a problem with having a door slammed in their face. It wouldn't show them that all men are bastards, but that men treat them with equal respect (yes, their definition of respect is tenuous).TU4AR said:
It's other women, with other views on feminism that'd have a problem with it. Sure, there are misandric women who're just looking for a reason to hate men, but they're a pathetic irrelevance for whom I feel extreme pity and condemnation in equal measure. It must be a very shallow existence to be so out of tune with one's own emotional driving forces that one seeks a focus for hatred.
Couldn't disagree more. Gender roles are necessarily harmful as they bear the potential to restrict the greats of a field from ever entering. Had Curie stayed true to her gender role then who knows how much longer it would have been before we would have discovered Polonium.TU4AR said:
I understand that you haven't specifically espoused 'get back in the kitchen' as the female gender role, but a gender role necessarily constrains and ergo necessarily bears the potential to prevent a genius from entering a field.
