Is it just me... or does the Xbox one violate EU laws?

[Karadalis]

The kicker is that the kinect also suposedly records sound.. aka conversations.

You know.. microsoft is delivering a hackers dream... all they need to do is hack into your xbox.. and lets face it someone WILL do it... and they can spy on you. The fact that the camera and audio recorder are allways on anyways make it that much more easier since no one who owns an xbox one will be suspicious of the kinect doing what microsoft wants it do do anyways right? XD

You can say this about a lot of things, phones, tablets, smartphones, some TVs, (My TV has a motion control like Kinect anyway and yes its still shit) laptops and even cars.

So many things have devices that can see you, hear you and report your location and any that connect to the internet or a network of some type can be hacked. The Xbone has a lot of problems but being spied on is either a non issue or just another device on the list at worst.

And all these devices have the option to shut the recording down. But if you want to use your xbone.. you cannot shut down the kinect part that keeps recording both visual and audio... aslong as you use the xbox.

My phone? I can turn off the camera. My laptop? Ditto. Furthermore both will not passively record any conversations that i have with other people... the xbone will.

See the difference now?

Because if the device is hacked the hacker can turn it on? Short of physically disconnecting microphones and cameras turning them off achieves little. Do you go through a devices options every 20 seconds or less to check they are not on? Can you even reliably tell if they are on or off? What happens if the hacker turns them on but leaves the notification that they off in place?

So again either a non issue or another device on the list. Phones can passively record conversations so I don't know where you got the idea that they can't from, not only can conversations or data transferred by a phone be tapped they act as a portable microphone that can record and transmit conversations that happen around (after all most phones have speakerphone capability) them they can transmit images and in some cases video too. Worse still turning it off will not stop it either, removing the battery is the only way because they can listen and transmit passively and even be turned on remotely by the mobile service provider. Its unlikely a hacker would have most of the options available to say the authorities as they are only possible with the cooperation of the network provider but its possible to hack a phone over wifi and get control of the operating system.

Theres a difference thought.

Most of these devices get security updates.

The other product was made and programmed by the guys who brought you the internet explorer. Whom do you trust more security wise? Not only that but theres a gajillion different mobile phone models and most of them have different architecture and hardware. Not so the xbone.. every xbone will have the same hardware and ofcourse the same security problem.. this is microsoft after all.

Also it is way more difficult to hack into a mobile phone then a stay at home game console. Not only because well its static but also because it is more worthwhile to hack an Xbone then a mobile phone simply because the chances of gaining relevant information like credit cards or interesting conversations that can be used for blackmail is much higher due to the xbox not being used in a subway station with lots of background noise, but in your living room where you feel "safe".

Furthermore when youre in public youre in public... in most western citys we are allready on cams, be it public surveilance for "crime prevention" or in shops, malls and shopping centres for the same reason.

In your living room thought thats a different story.

Also another difference between latop cams etc. and xbone: If i want to make sure theres no hacking attempt going on or has allready occured theres tons of software for that, furthermore i can simply cut my internet connection by pulling a cable.

The xbone does not have 3rd party spy/malware removal programs and requires to atleast be online once every 24 hours.


The devil is in the details

 

[Strazdas]

Most noticably the "allways on" kinect that watches you and monitors/records whatever you do or say as long as the xbox one is turned on?

not really. just because a webcam is on does not mean that it records or monitors. it could be only enabled when required. not like 500gb hdd woudl be good enough to store such recordings to begin with.

As far as I know it is illegal to build something like that into your console without giving the user the option to turn this so called "feature" off in the EU (or atleast in germany)

Then theres the whole idiotic idea of stiffling the used games market. If i recall correctly the EU judged that if you are the owner of a game you can sell just as if you would sell anything else that you bought. Microsoft demanding a fee to install a game you bought from a person who bought it legally steps right over this.

Somehow I doubt that the Xbox one will be able to be sold as is in the EU without atleast enabling to shut down the kinect camera. The used games blockade though might be still pushed through since no one would have to guts or the money to actually sue them because of their unfair business practices that go clearly against the EU judging of used game sales.

As far as I know it is illegal to build something like that into your console without giving the user the option to turn this so called "feature" off in the EU (or atleast in germany)

you can turn it off, unplug it. you wont be able to use it. but you cant use your PC with monitor unplugged either and were not complaining about that.

Then theres the whole idiotic idea of stiffling the used games market. If i recall correctly the EU judged that if you are the owner of a game you can sell just as if you would sell anything else that you bought. Microsoft demanding a fee to install a game you bought from a person who bought it legally steps right over this.

You are correct, EU supreme court variant has judged that a person should be enabled to resell his game. i can sell my Xbone game. its just that the guy that buys it cant use it. In fact non-resellable digital games is a bigger problem than this and the reason for this decision to begin with.

The kicker is that the kinect also suposedly records sound.. aka conversations.

You know.. microsoft is delivering a hackers dream... all they need to do is hack into your xbox.. and lets face it someone WILL do it... and they can spy on you. The fact that the camera and audio recorder are allways on anyways make it that much more easier since no one who owns an xbox one will be suspicious of the kinect doing what microsoft wants it do do anyways right? XD

spyign is nothing. recording and selling it as porn is the real deal.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

It's very much illegal. And most of it's advertized TV features don't work in Europe anyway. It's a console designed for the US, I guess.

As If the NFL agreement wasn't indicative enough of it. They probably know that the console only sold well in America or something so they decide to focus on that region to disastrous results

 

[Karadalis]

Most noticably the "allways on" kinect that watches you and monitors/records whatever you do or say as long as the xbox one is turned on?

not really. just because a webcam is on does not mean that it records or monitors. it could be only enabled when required. not like 500gb hdd woudl be good enough to store such recordings to begin with.

As far as I know it is illegal to build something like that into your console without giving the user the option to turn this so called "feature" off in the EU (or atleast in germany)

Then theres the whole idiotic idea of stiffling the used games market. If i recall correctly the EU judged that if you are the owner of a game you can sell just as if you would sell anything else that you bought. Microsoft demanding a fee to install a game you bought from a person who bought it legally steps right over this.

Somehow I doubt that the Xbox one will be able to be sold as is in the EU without atleast enabling to shut down the kinect camera. The used games blockade though might be still pushed through since no one would have to guts or the money to actually sue them because of their unfair business practices that go clearly against the EU judging of used game sales.

As far as I know it is illegal to build something like that into your console without giving the user the option to turn this so called "feature" off in the EU (or atleast in germany)

you can turn it off, unplug it. you wont be able to use it. but you cant use your PC with monitor unplugged either and were not complaining about that.

Then theres the whole idiotic idea of stiffling the used games market. If i recall correctly the EU judged that if you are the owner of a game you can sell just as if you would sell anything else that you bought. Microsoft demanding a fee to install a game you bought from a person who bought it legally steps right over this.

You are correct, EU supreme court variant has judged that a person should be enabled to resell his game. i can sell my Xbone game. its just that the guy that buys it cant use it. In fact non-resellable digital games is a bigger problem than this and the reason for this decision to begin with.

The kicker is that the kinect also suposedly records sound.. aka conversations.

You know.. microsoft is delivering a hackers dream... all they need to do is hack into your xbox.. and lets face it someone WILL do it... and they can spy on you. The fact that the camera and audio recorder are allways on anyways make it that much more easier since no one who owns an xbox one will be suspicious of the kinect doing what microsoft wants it do do anyways right? XD

spyign is nothing. recording and selling it as porn is the real deal.

Have you read anything about the xbone and its kinect?

1) You cannot turn it off.. it will be even on when in standby mode. Why? So it is "ready" for you when you want to activate your xbox via voice command or hand motion.. ergo it DOES watch you 24/7 aslong as you provide electricity to it.

2) The xbone will not run without the kinect plugged in. Plug it out and the xbone will stop working.

3) The kinect camera has infrared and will even watch you when you turn off the lights *giggety*

4) The data is not stored on your harddrive, it will be sent to god knows where. Microsoft has allready filed a patent for the kinect to scan for products in its viewrange for use of targeted commercials. You think they would store that kind of information on your own harddrive?

5) Comparing the kinect.. an input device.. to a monitor? An output device only? Dont know about you but my monitor does not watch me 24/7 and i can turn it off. Neither does it send any information about my private live to a third party unlike the kinect.

6) It was allready said by microsoft that the kinect will be able to even monitor your heartrate and aparantly your "mood" (however thats suposed to work i dont know) In short it does watch you.. it is allways on and watching listening.. i dont know how you feel about it but i say that thats a little bit to much, you are opening a window to your living room and you have no idea who or what is watching on the other hand since microsoft will not tell you to wich third party they are sending your information.

7) About reselling: But you wouldnt be reselling it since no one would be willing to pay twice. Thats like someone selling a used car.. but before you can use it you have to give money to the car manufacturer or else he wont let you drive it. You can bet that there would be a lanslide of lawsuits if any car manufacturer would try to pull this stunt. Thing is.. aparantly no one takes the game industry serious enough to even care.

Thats stiffling the market and freedom of reselling.

Microsoft is trying to create a monopol again like they tried with windows. Internet explorer and windows media center got a whooping from the EU parlament before when microsoft tried to stiffle that particular market.

 

[Something Amyss]

Funnily enough most people probably have an uncovered webcam facing them right now from their laptops, potentially recording everything they do without their consent.

I doubt most people are on laptops.

 

[Jhooud]

Then theres the whole idiotic idea of stiffling the used games market. If i recall correctly the EU judged that if you are the owner of a game you can sell just as if you would sell anything else that you bought. Microsoft demanding a fee to install a game you bought from a person who bought it legally steps right over this.

How does that work for Steam? As far as I know, I can't resell any of the startlingly large number of games I've bought through Steam, which seems like a violation of the ruling you're describing.

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

I just realized that we didn't seen an on/off button.

This probably means that the Kinect IS mandatory and that it IS violating the laws the OP mentioned.

 

[Diablo1099_v1legacy]

Funnily enough most people probably have an uncovered webcam facing them right now from their laptops, potentially recording everything they do without their consent.

I doubt most people are on laptops.

I read this on a laptop

Still, Laptop Webcams need some software in order to function (In my case, Webcam Companion 4) so it's not on until you open that program, meaning it's not on unless you turn it on.

Unlike the X-Bone.

Now, I understand what everyone is saying about "Just unplug it when you are not using it!" but what about when you are using it? Mircosoft (Or a 3rd party) could be use X-Bone Live to see right into your living room as you play their system.
En Mass Video Surveillance, like with the London CCTV, only right inside your home.

I understand if I'm sounding paranoid, but from the details coming out, this seems entirely possible.

 

[The Artificially Prolonged]

No idea if the kinect will breach privacy laws in the eu. Thought it is a Microsoft product and violating eu laws seems to be Microsoft's thing

 

[generals3]

No idea if the kinect will breach privacy laws in the eu. Thought it is a Microsoft product and violating eu laws seems to be Microsoft's thing

I think they should be given a fidelity card for EU courts. Obviously they're very good costumers.

 

[SecondPrize]

Can you not just unplug the Kinect?
I don't think people have the right to sell anything that you bought, there are laws on certain items although I don't know if games fall under those laws. I don't think they actually break laws, just really piss people off.

The first-sale doctrine allows owners of copyrighted material (not the copyright holders) the ability to sell their legally purchased copyrighted products. It applies to games as well as books, music and other copyrighted products. I'd be surprised if we see any movement on this for digital stuff in the US, but EU courts are already on their way to upholding rights to resell games, even digital downloads.
Also, I don't think you can just unplug it. Everything Microsoft has said so far is that the xbone requires the kinect to function.

 

[Johkmil]

The always-on-in-standby-mode part is where I think this might be on uncertain ground. For reasons of energy conservation, the EU is very strict on standby modes, and I think a lot of electronics are not even allowed to have a standby mode.

 

[zzkill]

Of course the Kinect is always needed, the controller has a Kinect sensor in it for improved something. Improve the controller with something that used to mistake you for a lamp or the couch because you were 2 cm off to the right. Ha, nice one.

 

[Something Amyss]

I read this on a laptop

Since you are most people, I withdraw my doubt.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

Why not just put a square of duct tape over the camera and mic?

 

[Diablo1099_v1legacy]

Since you are most people, I withdraw my doubt.

Was that sarcasm? O[sub]o[/sub]O
Nah, a lot of people I know have laptops with webcams that only turn on when they want it to.

Why not just put a square of duct tape over the camera and mic?

While that'd work for the camera, not sure what effect it'd have on the mic.
That and seeing out the X-bone uses Voice Controls, it *could* (Plz don't quote me on this) seriously mess them up, making using the X-Bone impossible to use.

Think a Gamepad that has a faulty left button that is always pressed down.

 

[redhatman]

Also as i said before: not many months ago the EU made a judgement that generaly speaking a Customer is entitled to reselling his online bought games just.. and this is important.. as if he owned a physical copy of said game.

It doesnt take a brain surgeon to read out of this where the EU stands in terms of pre owned game sales. For them a disk and the data on it can be resold, just not copied.

But pre owned games aside, the 24/7 spying cam of the kinect makes me scratch my head more then anything else.

Oh come on with the Big Brother paranoia...

Anyway that law was everything the europeans on the Steam forums talked about last year, Steam still hasn't created a reselling tool, has it? Don't think it's working out too well.

No one's stopping you from selling a game in the xbox anyway, we're not sure how expensive the fee will be.

The fee to install the used game onto the xbone will apparently be the same as the price of a full game...

 

[Diablo1099_v1legacy]

The fee to install the used game onto the xbone will apparently be the same as the price of a full game...

You have got to be shitting me, do you have a link?

 

[Sir Shockwave]

Considering what I'm fast learning about American Corporations, they couldn't really give a damn if it broke European Laws or not.

 

[KarmaTheAlligator]

The fee to install the used game onto the xbone will apparently be the same as the price of a full game...

You have got to be shitting me, do you have a link?

They've also said that whatever they previously said about used games was still up for debate (like most of their features, really).