Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?

[MysticSlayer]

Internet feminists' gradual creep into the games industry has surely not gone unnoticed.

Or, you know, plenty of feminists were already here and we either needed some encouragement to start speaking up or started agreeing with feminists as the discussion got going.

What matters is whether or not this is going to start affecting the quality of the games we get in future.

Out of curiosity: Is this wondering if games will get better for everyone or get better only for you. I'm not trying to call you out as an egotist, but more often than not when I hear this "will games get better" question in these discussions, it almost always comes from the perspective of an individual who, more often than not, is a man who isn't a feminist and, as a result, probably doesn't understand how the changes being called for would make games more enjoyable for a very large group of people.

Recent games like the new Tomb Raider and Bioshock Infinite have come under fire for being "sexist", and I can't for the life of me figure out why.

Then why don't you ask the people that brought up the complaint or at least read what they said about it?

Also, it isn't like we'll just suddenly see all the improvement at once. Seeing better treatment of women is something that takes time. We've seen this in various political, cultural, and economic matters. There's no reason to believe it will be any different here.

should game developers capitulate to feminist demands for a more inclusive range of characters in their games?

Who said that they needed to "capitulate"? For all we know, they may actually agree with the arguments and want to try to do better. Yeah, they may not be perfect, but at least they have the desire and are hardly "capitulating" to feminist demands.

And if someone isn't choosing to listen to the arguments, then people have just as much right to criticize and/or not buy the game as the developer had to make it. This whole "It get to say and do what I want" isn't a one-way street. With that said...

As a person who works in a creative role myself, I value artistic integrity and creative vision far more than any tenuous elements of fairness or inclusivity attached to a work.

And while we might disagree with some creative decisions, ultimately it's the creator's work to do with what he will.

So should people just stop criticizing someone who throws out shoddy works because it was their "artistic vision"? Considering you've already expressed concern about the quality of games, I'm guessing the answer is no, as we can't hope to improve if there aren't people pointing out what does and doesn't work.

With that in mind, it doesn't seem unreasonable to talk about female representation. Maybe it is a form of criticism that you don't think will improve games for you, but there are plenty of people who find it worthwhile enough to talk about.

We can criticise it on its merits

So representing otherwise misrepresented groups isn't a merit worth applauding when done or criticizing when not done?

but extrapolating that to making broad statements about the developer's worldview is totally speculative and ultimately fruitless

So what do you guys think? Is there endemic sexism within the game industry and feminists complaints are valid

Here's the thing: Pretty much everyone, even the most die-hard of feminists, has sexist ideas, and those ideas' presentation in artistic mediums offers a good opportunity to talk about them. At the very least it gives the creators and consumers an opportunity to think about aspects of their worldview that they never really thought about before.

And as for the industry, there are certainly issues [http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/04/09/naughty-dog-demands-female-focus-group-members-for-the-last-of-us.aspx], but I doubt anyone would say that developers are specifically trying to be sexist. Even Anita has made a point in some of her videos to say that she doesn't think developers are trying to be sexist. Many of them are probably trying to be inclusive, but since feminist analysis of video games only rose to the current level of prominence it has in the last few years, we're still trying to figure out how to deal with the issue. The good news is that, despite the imperfections, the games industry actually seems very concerned about the issue and wants to fix them.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

By that logic all videogame characters would be marginal in novels, seeing as they're completely different mediums with different propensities to explore characterisation.

There is nothing in the medium of gaming that restricts it from having stronger characterization, unless we're referring to blank slate protagonists.

As for television shows, if you think Ellie is on par with characters as seen in The Sopranos, The Wire, Breaking Bad, Mad Men, et al than I'm afraid we're just going to have to agree to STRONGLY disagree. She is a one-note character that would be a relative afterthought in more established media. And I'm not having a go at The Last of Us or Ellie either. I liked both and thought she was a good step forward.

As for me being "gynophobic", I'd suggest you provide evidence of that or retract it. Criticising a feminist stance on an isue =/= "gynophobia".

1. You take specific issue with "feminism" in gaming, not "activism" in general but "feminism" in particular.
2. You make it clear you're not employing the dictionary definition of gender equality when you repeatedly take umbrage with "women's issues".
3. You characterize gaming as "our" hobby, and establish "feminists" as an other seeking to impose their will on it. This kind of "Us vs Them" dichotomy is CLASSIC prejudicial language, and is profoundly inflammatory.
4. You don't actually take a particular issue or "stance" and criticize it, you just throw a blanket over an entire highly variable demographic and announce that they should get out of "your" hobby.

So, generally speaking, when we have someone employing inflammatory, prejudicial arguments against a group, that is usually the result of one of several things. Malice, ignorance, or fear. I was being charitable and assuming it was fear. Fear of some "feminist conspiracy" out to spoil gaming by demanding it conform to their highly selective world view, and replacing all the guns with tea cozies and all the tits with cat videos, or something. Right? People often tend to be fearful of things they don't fully understand.

 

[Mandalore_15]

As for me being "gynophobic", I'd suggest you provide evidence of that or retract it. Criticising a feminist stance on an isue =/= "gynophobia".

1. You take specific issue with "feminism" in gaming, not "activism" in general but "feminism" in particular.
2. You make it clear you're not employing the dictionary definition of gender equality when you repeatedly take umbrage with "women's issues".
3. You characterize gaming as "our" hobby, and establish "feminists" as an other seeking to impose their will on it. This kind of "Us vs Them" dichotomy is CLASSIC prejudicial language, and is profoundly inflammatory.
4. You don't actually take a particular issue or "stance" and criticize it, you just throw a blanket over an entire highly variable demographic and announce that they should get out of "your" hobby.

So, generally speaking, when we have someone employing inflammatory, prejudicial arguments against a group, that is usually the result of one of several things. Malice, ignorance, or fear. I was being charitable and assuming it was fear. Fear of some "feminist conspiracy" out to spoil gaming by demanding it conform to their highly selective world view, and replacing all the guns with tea cozies and all the tits with cat videos, or something. Right? People often tend to be fearful of things they don't fully understand.

1. Well yes, I take specific issue with feminism in this case because it is what the discussion is centering around. The term "activism" has no meaning in this context without attributing a cause to which one is being active about. The specific cause I am discussing is feminism.

2. I never at any point said I take umbrage with women's issues. What I take umbrage with are people who are agenda-fuelled to the point of insatiability. You really are extrapolating a lot from what I said, to the point where you're basically making things up.

3. As I mentioned IN THE POST YOU ARE REPLYING TO, by "our" hobby I meant that as the collective noun of people that use this website. That does not mean that people using this website cannot be feminist and vice-versa.

4. I actually am taking quite a specific stance. My stance is that it is wrong to label any kind of creative talent as "sexist" simply because their work does not contain gendered characters that meet your own ideals of inclusivity. It's quite simple really.

I can already see that this thread has become more trouble than it's worth when people have ascribed a stance and even specific points to me that I have never expressed. There was nothing prejudicial in what I said; at no point did I say that feminists were inferior or should not be allowed to play videogames. My point was that in my opinion arguments as to gender inclusivity in game characters are, on a case-by-case basis, somewhat invalid.

Also, I didn't characterise this as a conspiracy, as I even said that the people making these points are a "fringe element". If anyone's fearful, it's you that's afraid of replying to an argument without reverting to non-applicable talking points.

 

[Silentwindofdoom]

Hey, if it gets more non-straight white males* in games, then sure they can stay as long as the like (although I'm not sure how one would go about suddenly "getting rid of them")

*[sub]I say this as a straight, white male, by the way. I just want something a little different[/sub]

Anyway, I've not heard of these "feminist demands" of which you speak. Were they etched in stone by Anita Sarkeesian, by any chance?

The "We just want more diversity" argument put forth by some is disingenuous. Merely putting attractive females in videogames as eye-candy is labeled as sexism and morally abhorrent.

Well there is a difference between attractive female and sexualized female, but thanks for playing. Take your prize on the way out.

Of course there is some nuance to be had, but my example covers both of yours. I don't have a problem with sexualizing anyone to appeal to the base sensibilities of human beings when creating media.

It's funny that you use the word "disingenuous" and then proceed to be disingenuous. I'm pretty sure you could've reasoned for yourself that "Instead of white men, let's have tons of pretty women" wasn't what he meant.

That's not what I thought he meant. I made a more general comment on "the movement" if I can call it that. Which is that the call for more diversity is made not as an honest, reasoned suggestion at the address of game developers, but rather as a demand. Why do I call it a demand? Because to refuse is to be labeled something derogatory. It is being made into a moral issue. As a game developer you cannot walk away from this and say "No thank you, I understand your concerns but I prefer my straight white male protagonist." It is simply not acceptable. This attitude is making a lot of people defensive, including myself, even though I have no problem with games where women are "more" and protagonists are not just straight white males. I would just like this discussion to be had in an environment where disagreement is not a black mark.

 

[Rayce Archer]

See it works like this:
Videogames are a little sexist sometimes, so:
Feminists comment on that, which is absolutely their right, and:
Gamers who are SUPER sexist attack them with a response proportionality similar to nuclear attack, and then:
Feminists dig in and hold on for the long haul because GOLD MINE.

It's dumb to think it's still about the games anymore. Gamers, through just absolutely stupid behavior, have created a far more fertile ground of troll-poking than developers, with their too-hard-to-program-women idiocy and bioware MTV sex ever could. Here's a news flash: feminists are allowed to hate video games. So are atheists, communists, freemasons, your dad, crocodiles, and cavemen. If you don't like what someone says about video games, because you have internalized your interests into yourself, then the way to cope is to IGNORE THEM. When instead people write rapey death threats every time Anita last-name-I-can't-spell says it's gross how watching Kratos hump makes nymphs turn lesbian, then we as gamers are BECOMING what the critics of gaming claim we will be.

Seriously people, it's not rocket science. When Jack Thompson said games would make us all murderers we showed his ass by not being murderers. So if you don't like some ladies saying how games will turn you into creepy misogynists, please consider refuting them by NOT BEING CREEPY MISOGYNISTS. In a perfect world people who like Anita Sharkalien(sic) and her videos would watch them, people who didn't wouldn't, and THAT WOULD BE IT.

PS: Those of you who are heterosexual should consider being more tolerant of women in gaming, because sharing a hobby is actually a really good way to socialize with women, which is the first step toward emotional romantic fulfillment and stopping those frustrating weekly visits to the Rosy Palms motel. Those of you who are gay... well, frankly, I'm pretty sure the gay dudes aren't the problem here.

 

[The Lunatic]

I find it's usually one of two things.

1. Developers don't make games with good female protagonists!

Which usually is because they don't sell very well. Reasons unknown to me. It doesn't bother me, and I sometimes play as a female character given the choice.

Which brings us to...

2. "Gamers" are sexist and don't buy games with women because they hate women.

I've never understood the logic of this one, given forums like this one generally show people are overwhelming in support of female characters. Maybe girls just aren't interested in the kinds of games you want to see female character in and thus don't buy them?

Given I rarely see anything more than these two points, yeah, I guess "Feminists" are kinda pointless in the industry if these are the only two points they raise rather than presenting some sort of argument which goes on to actually explain why developers don't make more female characters beyond "They hate women".

 

[BloatedGuppy]

1. Well yes, I take specific issue with feminism in this case because it is what the discussion is centering around. The term "activism" has no meaning in this context without attributing a cause to which one is being active about. The specific cause I am discussing is feminism.

That's fine. I was pointing out your "very specific issue". Lots of people have "very specific issues" with certain demographics, yes?

2. I never at any point said I take umbrage with women's issues. What I take umbrage with are people who are agenda-fuelled to the point of insatiability. You really are extrapolating a lot from what I said, to the point where you're basically making things up.

You touch on "depiction of female characters" several times in your OP. You make it clear the manifestation of "feminism" you are concerned with deals specifically with women and their depiction in gaming. Not "feminism" as the movement promoting equality between the genders.

3. As I mentioned IN THE POST YOU ARE REPLYING TO, by "our" hobby I meant that as the collective noun of people that use this website. That does not mean that people using this website cannot be feminist and vice-versa.

And? Do you still not understand or accept that when you use terms like "OUR" and "GROUP X NEEDS TO STEP OFF" you're not only polarizing the issue but presenting as DEEPLY phobic/aggrieved about the group in question? Is a little reflection on your OP and the tone you chose to assume too much to ask for here?

I actually am taking quite a specific stance. My stance is that it is wrong to label any kind of creative talent as "sexist" simply because their work does not contain gendered characters that meet your own ideals of inclusivity. It's quite simple really.

That may have been your intention. A thread entitled "Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby" that rambles for paragraphs about capitulation and feminists "creeping" into the gaming industry sounds a lot less specific, and a lot more like unfocused anger/paranoia.

I can already see that this thread has become more trouble than it's worth when people have ascribed a stance and even specific points to me that I have never expressed.

Except that what you wrote left plenty of room for that to be intuited. You can continue with this "I did nothing wrong, everyone else is at fault" stance, or you can accept that your attempt to communicate your feelings was unsuccessful and you presented very differently than you perhaps intended.

If anyone's fearful, it's you that's afraid of replying to an argument without reverting to non-applicable talking points.

Ah yes, the "NO U" school of rebuttal. Never gets old, that one.

 

[thundra]

This is first time i wanted to die after reading a post. In my opinion games are super fun. Everyone should be able to enjoy them regardless of sex, gender (yes gender and sex are two different things), race, ability or nationality. Games are in creative rot because most games are done from straight, white, male perspective (yes your sex, race, gender and age effects how you see world.) There are handful of gay, black, female or trans developers and power that shareholders have over the industry won't do any favors either. Guess what games are far from perfect games ignore 70-85% of earths population constantly there disabled people who want to play games but can't because of disability (poor hearing, color blindness etc) it doesn't care about women or what they think, it rarely adresses current issues in the world and when it does it doesn't comment on it unless its made by hideo kojima. If you can't handle that other people have different opinions what are you doing on the website thats about different opinions?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

So are atheists, communists, freemasons, your dad, crocodiles, and cavemen.

Crocodiles need to step off our hobby, man. I've had it up to here with them floating up silently behind me in pools, and trying to grab my neck when I'm enjoying a game of Counter Strike.

 

[thundra]

I find it's usually one of two things.

1. Developers don't make games with good female protagonists!

Which usually is because they don't sell very well. Reasons unknown to me. It doesn't bother me, and I sometimes play as a female character given the choice.

I think it's because of shitty marketing, game play or story also why there are so few female protagonists is because shareholders and publishers think that having a female protagonist effects negatively on sales instead of it being shitty game.

 

[Gronk]

"Our hobby"? Who are this "we" you're talking about? Just curious, because i've been playing games for 30 years and I sure as h**k aint one of them.

I sorta explained this above, but just for clarity by "our" I mean the community of this website.

But I'm a member of this community, and I would call myself a feminist. Are you saying that people "of this website" are not feminists?

Look, here's the thing: The state of some parts of the gaming community (the usual portrayal of women) right now is like bad breath. It sucks to have, but it's kind of difficult to smell it yourself. So if I did have it, I would actually be glad if someone would point it out to me, so i had a chance to fix it.

OR. I could just yell at anyone trying to bring it up, that's fine too... But probably won't get me any dates.

See what I'm trying to say?

 

[Mandalore_15]

What matters is whether or not this is going to start affecting the quality of the games we get in future.

Out of curiosity: Is this wondering if games will get better for everyone or get better only for you. I'm not trying to call you out as an egotist, but more often than not when I hear this "will games get better" question in these discussions, it almost always comes from the perspective of an individual who, more often than not, is a man who isn't a feminist and, as a result, probably doesn't understand how the changes being called for would make games more enjoyable for a very large group of people.

I think that's a big assumption to make regarding the identity of people posing such a question. But at any rate, it's about allowing people the creative decision to use characters that suit the story. I for one really enjoyed Gone Home, so it's not like I am against interesting female characters in games or anything.

At any rate, games aren't democratic or utilitarian. The best work is always done when the creator makes what they want to make. Game design by focus group is creative suicide.

Recent games like the new Tomb Raider and Bioshock Infinite have come under fire for being "sexist", and I can't for the life of me figure out why.

Then why don't you ask the people that brought up the complaint or at least read what they said about it?

Also, it isn't like we'll just suddenly see all the improvement at once. Seeing better treatment of women is something that takes time. We've seen this in various political, cultural, and economic matters. There's no reason to believe it will be any different here.

I did ask/read, my point wasn't that I was ignorant of the arguments but that they all seemed like bullshit because the characters (as far as I could see) reflected pretty much every change that they had claimed to want.

And does more female characters in games really fall under the heading of "better treatment of women"? This seems like a false equivalency to me.

As a person who works in a creative role myself, I value artistic integrity and creative vision far more than any tenuous elements of fairness or inclusivity attached to a work.

And while we might disagree with some creative decisions, ultimately it's the creator's work to do with what he will.

So should people just stop criticizing someone who throws out shoddy works because it was their "artistic vision"? Considering you've already expressed concern about the quality of games, I'm guessing the answer is no, as we can't hope to improve if there aren't people pointing out what does and doesn't work.

With that in mind, it doesn't seem unreasonable to talk about female representation. Maybe it is a form of criticism that you don't think will improve games for you, but there are plenty of people who find it worthwhile enough to talk about.

We can criticise it on its merits

So representing otherwise misrepresented groups isn't a merit worth applauding when done or criticizing when not done?

People can certainly criticise games for being bad, or really a whole host of reasons... What I am saying is that it is meaningless to criticise an individual game for not representing a particular group in its characters. Sure, we can discuss the lesser amount of female main characters in games AS A WHOLE and say that we want more of them (this isn't even something I disagree with, by the way), but it is a complete non-argument to say that a game like God Of War for example SHOULD have more female characters, that they should be tougher or even that Kratos himself should be a woman, etc. God Of War is what it is because it's what the developers wanted it to be, love it or hate it. If developers make games based on tickbox criteria, they end up being insipid, lifeless things devoid of any energy, because the best art always happens when people make what they want to make. Sure a lot of what people make is shit, but they need the freedom to explore what they want to explore to have any chance of striking gold.

but extrapolating that to making broad statements about the developer's worldview is totally speculative and ultimately fruitless

So what do you guys think? Is there endemic sexism within the game industry and feminists complaints are valid

Here's the thing: Pretty much everyone, even the most die-hard of feminists, has sexist ideas, and those ideas' presentation in artistic mediums offers a good opportunity to talk about them. At the very least it gives the creators and consumers an opportunity to think about aspects of their worldview that they never really thought about before.

And as for the industry, there are certainly issues [http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/04/09/naughty-dog-demands-female-focus-group-members-for-the-last-of-us.aspx], but I doubt anyone would say that developers are specifically trying to be sexist. Even Anita has made a point in some of her videos to say that she doesn't think developers are trying to be sexist. Many of them are probably trying to be inclusive, but since feminist analysis of video games only rose to the current level of prominence it has in the last few years, we're still trying to figure out how to deal with the issue. The good news is that, despite the imperfections, the games industry actually seems very concerned about the issue and wants to fix them.

I get what you're saying, but saying that someone is not "trying" to be sexist but is nevertheless sexist anyway is not much comfort. I generally don't put any stock in Sarkeesian's views on this (I think The Amazing Atheist and Thunderf00t on youtube did good rebuttles to many of her points), and while I would like to see more interesting female characters in games, I don't think it's sexist that there aren't as many right now. But that's just my opinion, and I welcome others.

 

[shrekfan246]

I would just like this discussion to be had in an environment where disagreement is not a black mark.

That's a problem inherent to the way in which these discussions are currently being held; which is to say the internet doesn't exactly engender calm discourse.

There are people on both sides of "the movement" who are constantly making unreasonable demands and shouting embarrassing things simply because of how they perceive the situations, and it's honestly tarring the entire subject for anyone who does want to try having a legitimate conversation. It's a little hard to say "Maybe more representation for minorities would be good" when on either side of you you've got people drowning you out by veritably shouting about how the feminists are going to change the entire games industry and how the gamers are spoiled children who just hate women. And it's made even worse when people take your statements to try ascribing their own preconceived notions on to you simply because you didn't agree with what they had to say.

To be honest, I don't actually understand why people have gotten so worked up about "feminists in gaming" in the first place. The only thing it ever seems to come back to is that people are afraid of video game development being changed into some kind of sterile Politically Correct[sup]TM[/sup] neutral zone where nothing "problematic" could ever be made ever again, and... that's simply never going to happen. Nobody has the power to change the face of the video game industry on that grand a scale, no matter how loudly they type on the internet.

 

[Muspelheim]

So are atheists, communists, freemasons, your dad, crocodiles, and cavemen.

Crocodiles need to step off our hobby, man. I've had it up to here with them floating up silently behind me in pools, and trying to grab my neck when I'm enjoying a game of Counter Strike.

They've utterly RUINED the radio enthusiast hobby! They're hogging all the frequencies, growling conspiracy theories about Steve Irwin.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

To be honest, I don't actually understand why people have gotten so worked up about "feminists in gaming" in the first place. The only thing it ever seems to come back to is that people are afraid of video game development being changed into some kind of sterile Politically Correct[sup]TM[/sup] neutral zone where nothing "problematic" could ever be made ever again, and... that's simply never going to happen. Nobody has the power to change the face of the video game industry on that grand a scale, no matter how loudly they type on the internet.

It makes no sense to me. People want the hobby and the medium to be taken seriously, and then it is the subject of serious criticism...the same kind other forms of media have been enduring since their inception...and suddenly we need to sound the alarm and circle the bloody wagons. Individual creators can listen to criticism and decide whether or not they want to on-board it. Attempting to SILENCE criticism only implies that people are scared of what those critics have to say.

 

[Mandalore_15]

2. I never at any point said I take umbrage with women's issues. What I take umbrage with are people who are agenda-fuelled to the point of insatiability. You really are extrapolating a lot from what I said, to the point where you're basically making things up.

You touch on "depiction of female characters" several times in your OP. You make it clear the manifestation of "feminism" you are concerned with deals specifically with women and their depiction in gaming. Not "feminism" as the movement promoting equality between the genders.

Well yes, my whole point was that I consider equality for women to be "women's issues", not the number of women depicted in fiction which is relatively trivial when compared to that.

3. As I mentioned IN THE POST YOU ARE REPLYING TO, by "our" hobby I meant that as the collective noun of people that use this website. That does not mean that people using this website cannot be feminist and vice-versa.

And? Do you still not understand or accept that when you use terms like "OUR" and "GROUP X NEEDS TO STEP OFF" you're not only polarizing the issue but presenting as DEEPLY phobic/aggrieved about the group in question? Is a little reflection on your OP and the tone you chose to assume too much to ask for here?

It wouldn't be if I hadn't already done exactly that:

OK, perhaps I worded my introductory statement poorly. I wasn't trying to imply that people who identify as feminist cannot claim gaming as a hobby, or that there is some kind of division between the two. What I meant to say was "our hobby" (as in users of this website, not claiming my own personal ownership) and feminists "stepping off" meaning stopping criticising, at least in the sense of the artistic content of the games.

If that isn't enough for you I don't know what you want really. At any rate, I disagree entirely that the language in the OP is phobic in any way. I even went out of my way to talk about female characters I thought were really good in games, and basically said that I disagreed with feminists who claimed that they weren't. I even said that such criticisms in fact derail constructive discussion of gender in games.

I actually am taking quite a specific stance. My stance is that it is wrong to label any kind of creative talent as "sexist" simply because their work does not contain gendered characters that meet your own ideals of inclusivity. It's quite simple really.

That may have been your intention. A thread entitled "Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby" that rambles for paragraphs about capitulation and feminists "creeping" into the gaming industry sounds a lot less specific, and a lot more like unfocused anger/paranoia.

I'm sorry it appeared that way to you. If you found it "rambling" then fair enough, I was merely trying to flesh out the context of my argument. In fact I thought its structure was quite sound:

1. Introduce controversy
2. Counter view of strong female characters as sexist
3. Discuss whether developers should be expected to create "diversity" in games
4. Open question as to whether others agree/disagree

Feminist "creep" is perhaps poorly worded, but "capitulation" I stand by as it refers to a hypothetical scenario.

And as for the title, maybe it's a little "click-baity", but it is and open question, the meaning of which I have already described.

I can already see that this thread has become more trouble than it's worth when people have ascribed a stance and even specific points to me that I have never expressed.

Except that what you wrote left plenty of room for that to be intuited. You can continue with this "I did nothing wrong, everyone else is at fault" stance, or you can accept that your attempt to communicate your feelings was unsuccessful and you presented very differently than you perhaps intended.

Again, I already dealt with this earlier in the thread. I can certainly admit when I make mistakes and don't express myself clearly, but perhaps you should accept that it is wrong to apply a mindset and specific points to people that they don't write. Intuiting that I am "gynophobic" or "take umbrage with women's issues" when you already acknowledged that I was discussing the specific issue of inclusivity in games and not women's rights really is tenuous and, frankly, beyond the pale.

 

[Silentwindofdoom]

I would just like this discussion to be had in an environment where disagreement is not a black mark.

That's a problem inherent to the way in which these discussions are currently being held; which is to say the internet doesn't exactly engender calm discourse.

There are people on both sides of "the movement" who are constantly making unreasonable demands and shouting embarrassing things simply because of how they perceive the situations, and it's honestly tarring the entire subject for anyone who does want to try having a legitimate conversation. It's a little hard to say "Maybe more representation for minorities would be good" when on either side of you you've got people drowning you out by veritably shouting about how the feminists are going to change the entire games industry and how the gamers are spoiled children who just hate women. And it's made even worse when people take your statements to try ascribing their own preconceived notions on to you simply because you didn't agree with what they had to say.

To be honest, I don't actually understand why people have gotten so worked up about "feminists in gaming" in the first place. The only thing it ever seems to come back to is that people are afraid of video game development being changed into some kind of sterile Politically Correct[sup]TM[/sup] neutral zone where nothing "problematic" could ever be made ever again, and... that's simply never going to happen. Nobody has the power to change the face of the video game industry on that grand a scale, no matter how loudly they type on the internet.

I think it has to do with the polarizing figures who are perceived to be spearheading the feminist movement when it comes to videogames. They're not, of course. But when I think games and feminism I think Sarkeesian, then I think about that horrible Hitman-stripper-killing video, which can at best be called ignorant, and at worst intentionally dishonest. Not something you can tar videogame feminism with, but the association is certainly there, for me at least.

As for why people even bother posting and rage? For my part I have absolutely nothing against these diversity incentives, I have no fear for "mah games". My problem lies with the idea that if I opt out and make a game featuring a white male protagonist with attractive female eyecandy galore, I will be labeled a bro, a sexist, misogynist regressive.

The discourse has turned nasty and muddled, perhaps beyond repair at this point.

 

[shrekfan246]

To be honest, I don't actually understand why people have gotten so worked up about "feminists in gaming" in the first place. The only thing it ever seems to come back to is that people are afraid of video game development being changed into some kind of sterile Politically Correct[sup]TM[/sup] neutral zone where nothing "problematic" could ever be made ever again, and... that's simply never going to happen. Nobody has the power to change the face of the video game industry on that grand a scale, no matter how loudly they type on the internet.

It makes no sense to me. People want the hobby and the medium to be taken seriously, and then it is the subject of serious criticism...the same kind other forms of media have been enduring since their inception...and suddenly we need to sound the alarm and circle the bloody wagons. Individual creators can listen to criticism and decide whether or not they want to on-board it. Attempting to SILENCE criticism only implies that people are scared of what those critics have to say.

On top of that, it's a sad fact of our current cultures/societies that as a creator, you're pretty much always going to have those vocal minorities who love or hate your work because of whatever political/moral stance they perceive to be displayed in it rather than its inherent quality or lack thereof.

I'd like to be proven wrong, but I don't think a piece of entertainment will ever be created that can satisfy everyone. And from all of the exposure I've had to creators in the past, inside and outside of the video games industry, I'm pretty sure most of them know that already; that's a big part of the reason why demographics are a thing in the first place.

And even aside from my pithy philosophical babbling, I'm just having a hard time understanding why more games being made which are more "inclusive" would be a bad thing in the first place. Understanding that I'll still have my Crysis' and Batman: Arkhams and Bioshocks and Deus Exes, because those games and others like them aren't going to suddenly vanish, I don't understand how having more Gone Homes or a Legend of Zelda where the main character is female or a Gears of War game where you're not playing as Broody McWhiterson would inherently be a negative thing. Maybe a big part of it is just that video game writers aren't yet on the level they should be, and that's something only time and practice will really be able to change. But the casts in games fifteen years ago seemed a lot more interesting and diverse than the ones we tend to get now, even if they weren't as "well-characterized" within the game narratives.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

If that isn't enough for you I don't know what you want really.

Guy, I am at work. I'm not parsing the thread looking for your every word. I'm responding to replies that pop up in my inbox. My original criticism...which is what we've been discussing this entire time...was the first reply in the thread, LONG before your clarification.

At any rate, I disagree entirely that the language in the OP is phobic in any way.

I can appreciate that. I'm sure you can accept that, as the writer and the subject of the current critique, you are more than somewhat biased.

Again, I already dealt with this earlier in the thread. I can certainly admit when I make mistakes and don't express myself clearly, but perhaps you should accept that it is wrong to apply a mindset and specific points to people that they don't write. Intuiting that I am "gynophobic" or "take umbrage with women's issues" when you already acknowledged that I was discussing the specific issue of inclusivity in games and not women's rights really is tenuous and, frankly, beyond the pale.

I already expressed where that particular charge came from, and I stand by the position that it wasn't unwarranted given the content of your OP. I'm also hardly alone in taking that view of it...argumentum ad populum, I realize, but it's worth pointing out. I can see that you are highly sensitive to criticism of your OP and I'm not unsympathetic, but this is a public forum and you chose a polarizing issue to wade in swinging on. I should think a little censure was to be expected.