Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?

[The_Scrivener]

There are fifteen definitions of feminism, all differing, in this already brief thread. That's more of a problem than anything.

I'm a straight, white male and I'd call myself a feminist. I base my definition on the idea that all people should be treated equally regardless of gender.

With that said, I don't know that any mention of feminism in this thread matches what I just said. It's time to stop throwing around words that the gaming universe has apparently defined 50000 ways by now in order to again prove the painful inefficient nature of human communication.

OP: You mention Elizabeth and Elie. You mention new Lara Croft. Imagine how much more fruitful a discussion of them individually, outside of Anita/Quinn controversy culture, outside of MRA bullshit, outside of "FEMINISM," would be.

Here are 3 threads that would all be more productive within 3 posts than this one will be within 500:

-Does the inherent empowerment of Elizabeth's character in Bioshock Infinite's narrative usurp her "supporting" role in the gameplay?

-Is seeing Lara Croft die in the wildnerness more difficult for anyone because seeing a female protagonist die unflinchingly is rare in popular media outside of horror films? Is it because she is female or is it because we are attached to her so much as the hero we control?

-The developers/writers of The Last of Us made the intentional move to make Joel's daughter/Elie female characters. What differences do you think the "feel" of the story would have had if Joel's child was a boy? Accordingly, how would the game change if Joel's "new partner" in the dead and dying world was a teen boy?

In other words, stop getting caught up in social media shitstorm garbage, and let's have an actual discussion that matters as opposed to taking up arms over arbitrary definitions that people less smart than we are have painted the walls with.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Here are 3 threads that would all be more productive within 3 posts than this one will be within 500:

-Does the inherent empowerment of Elizabeth's character in Bioshock Infinite's narrative usurp her "supporting" role in the gameplay?

-Is seeing Lara Croft die in the wildnerness more difficult for anyone because seeing a female protagonist die unflinchingly is rare in popular media outside of horror films? Is it because she is female or is it because we are attached to her so much as the hero we control?

-The developers/writers of The Last of Us made the intentional move to make Joel's daughter/Elie female characters. What differences do you think the "feel" of the story would have had if Joel's child was a boy? Accordingly, how would the game change if Joel's "new partner" in the dead and dying world was a teen boy?

In other words, stop getting caught up in social media shitstorm garbage, and let's have an actual discussion that matters as opposed to taking up arms over arbitrary definitions that people less smart than we are have painted the walls with.

You, sir, deserve many up-votes for this.

Alas, this website does not support up-votes, so you get nothing.

 

[EternallyBored]

There are fifteen definitions of feminism, all differing, in this already brief thread. That's more of a problem than anything.

I'm a straight, white male and I'd call myself a feminist. I base my definition on the idea that all people should be treated equally regardless of gender.

With that said, I don't know that any mention of feminism in this thread matches what I just said. It's time to stop throwing around words that the gaming universe has apparently defined 50000 ways by now in order to again prove the painful inefficient nature of human communication.

Gaming and feminism actually seem to share this trait with each other. Gamers can never seem to agree on what exactly qualifies oneself as a gamer. Do casual mobile gamers count? Do you have to immerse yourself in the culture or treat it like a lifestyle? Does it have to be you main hobby or just one of many? Does just owning a console count? How many games do you need to play to be considered a gamer? Is there a mandatory social stigma attached, i.e. do you have to be nerdy or geeky to be considered a real gamer?

 

[Ratty]

OT:

Feminist criticism is one of the major schools of art and culture criticism. So no, as long as games are culturally relevant (which they are, look at those sales numbers) feminist critique will not "step off" your hobby. Get used to it.

 

[Something Amyss]

I've been gaming for longer than most of the people on this site have been alive and I'm a feminist. Remind me who should be doing the stepping off, again?

Oh my GOD she is not. She's a superb video game character, but she'd be a marginal character at best in a novel, television series or film. Games still have a very, very long way to go in that regard.

I always love this idea that games have somehow made it to the point where they rival other media in terms of storytelling and character. They can do things other media can't, but as far as character and writing go, they rarely reach dime novel/C movie status. TLOU may be the greatest game of all time[footnote]Never played it, I'm just offering this as a hypothetical based on the way people treat it[/footnote] but that doesn't make it significantly great compared to other media.

First, warning, I am a woman, but I am not a feminist.

Are you really, or do you just not like the label? Several of your recent responses would have me believe that not only do you think women should be treated equally, but also that women should get more representation in games (the latter including this very post). As such, you're espousing feminism. Hell, suggesting Peach could rescue Mario puts you dangerously in the dreaded Sarkeesian Zone *screams of horror*

They won't leave until we ignore them. We fail miserably so far. I doubt good developers would let some attention-seeking vloggers dictate how to make their games.

Are Volition bad developers, then?

Hell, developers seem far more amenable to "feminism" than gamers. Why is it that gamers are so quick to get offended on behalf of people who aren't themselves bothered? That sounds an awful lot like the definition of "Social Justice Warrior" people toss around.

For a start "artistic integrity" in most games is a load of shit in the first place especially if you are talking stuff like your avatar options in multiplayer (which is the one most likely to get under fire) and it's not a shield from criticism when you are selling a product.

It's also a load of crap anyway, as these games are focused grouped to exclusion. Hell, Naughty Dog had to fight just to show the character OP is lauding on the box.

I have a feeling the argument for artistic integrity goes away the minute that grasp does. Hell, people are already complaining about the Saints Row dev and Tim Scaffer for voluntarily supporting Anita Sarkeesian. Worse, apparently Volition actually cared about this sort of thing before IV came out, and we still got the anal probe weapon and S&M Kinzie. If this is the horror of political correctness, I...really don't see what people are complaining about. It's almost like you can include women voluntarily, and even make a fun game people like.

Oh crap, this was about straw feminism and getting "them" out of here. My bad.

Anyway, I've not heard of these "feminist demands" of which you speak. Were they etched in stone by Anita Sarkeesian, by any chance?

Anita Sarkeesian is only our current Queen. It was etched in stone generations ago by the great feminists overladies of the 1980s, who also decreed that we would not rest until comic books were nothing but mixed-race lesbians who complained about their periods. In fact, anita has very little autonomy, because we ran out of space on the sacred tablets of feminine superiority in 1998.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

I would say no, gaming is for everyone - but you do have to find your niche genre. BUT i think they would be better dealing with real world issues instead of games. Like models that are photoshopped in mags yet are used to give woman a false sense of a real figure. Female role models that think its great to use sex and their bodies to sell themselves and their songs etc. Its not female empowerment. I think they chose games as its an easy target, fixing real world issues is way more difficult.

 

[Mandalore_15]

My hobby too jerkface. I'm not Going anywhere. And I'm not reading that page of entitled whinging. The title of this thread was baity enough without shovelling through that rancid pile.

No.

Sure, some of the big-name feminists get their facts wrong, but that shouldn't discredit an entire movement that is working with ideals that SHOULD be common sense in today's society.

This is my stance. Some loud idiots just pushed your buttons and you're getting all huffy over it. Call them dumbshits like they are and move on.

You are included in "our" because you are a user of this site, which I stated was who I was referring to with the determiner. But if you want to go ahead and criticise someone without even reading what they have to say then be my guest.

 

[Something Amyss]

There is a difference between criticism and censorship. Saying you don't like something is criticism, telling someone they can't put something in a game is censorship.

So who, relevant to this topic, is saying they can't put something in a game?

I mean, other than the publishers, who apparently won't support female protagonists for the most part. Or women on the box art. Or, really, women in consideration as part of the focus groups. I mean, that's an example, but it's antithetical to your prior statement that content creators should have full control of their content.

 

[carnex]

Yo, just wondering how many people are going to read this anyway and not base my opinion on my previous actions which were anti-feminst to be honest.

Now, about the issue at hand. Video game gaming is a hobby of millions, hundreds of millions if some studies are to be belived. There is place in there for everyone. If term gamer represents person that enjoys games on as great time scale as live allows to that person, we have everyone among us from Nobel prize winners to mass murderers. And we all enjoy our games, often together not knowing absolutely anything about each other other than skill set. And that's so beautiful to me. Rebeka Watson and David Futrelle could play journey together and have time of their life, even an emotional experience of their lives even tho I could easily see them at each others throats on sight.

I also believe it's normal to want to be represented in medium you enjoy so much. There is something in having perfect image of yourself in what you enjoy that can't really be replaced fully in any other way.

But on the other hand, kicking the door in and yelling will only get you that same door slammed back in your face. Instinctive reaction to assholes, and if you are kicking the door in, you are with large probability an asshole.

I see many that identify as feminists here that have perfectly normal behavior. I'm sorry that you identify with that movement but that does not reflect on you as persons. Gamers world wide are, mostly, happy that you enjoy same medium we do. Here is my support for getting more of what you like in medium as long as it's set with reasonable standards.

Then there are those with frankly vitriolic attitude that think world should cater to their every whim just because they said so and that feel entitled not to be offended in their lives. Please stay, cut out a portion of this medium for yourselves and keep your voice down. I'm not even going to go into details, i had way to many discussions on that particular subject.

And that is all. Everyone has their place in this vast, vast medium. I sincerely think that more variety would be a good thing, that more perspectives always make for a better medium. But at the same time I also believe that every perceptive has it's own right to be explored. I may find them offensive, even repugnant, stupid, horrible, but I want that too. The more the better. And if you don't like it say that you don't like it and in future don't buy such products.

Well this turned into another lecture by your truly. Sorry, didn't intend to write it like that but I can't be assed to rewrite it.

 

[Chris^^]

I don't think there's anything wrong in pushing for more equality in gaming, but the SJW/feminist brigade that has reared it's ugly head again in light of the recent debacle is not really interested in that. Look at how quickly they shut down the Fine Young Capitalists; these people wanted to get more women in to the gaming industry, women who were interested in games and just wanted a chance to get their foot in the door. That was deemed as sexist and oppressive, because sexist and oppressive means doing anything against these bigot's opinions.

What needs to be removed from the gaming world is this endless string of rules on what is offensive, censorship, and repression of creativity and expression. People need to be able to make and play whatever fucking game they want without fear of it hurting someone's feelings.

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

it's almost like making games more varied and diverse is a bad thing.
if it wasn't for innovation we'd still be able to play pong, space invaders and pac-man.
lets mix things up, you can still play pac-man now, but theres lots of other cool stuff out there to play too. lets make newer different, doesnt mean devs will stop making chest high 3rd person shooters, or regenerating health FPS's, or games made entirely of brown and grey, while they still sell, they'll still be made, but with a bit of diversity injected in, we might get other games we didnt even know were fun.

so I vote t keep other peoples POV coming, you don't agree with what they have to say, debate them or ignore them, but lets not silence them.

 

[Ratty]

OT:

Feminist criticism is one of the major schools of art and culture criticism. So no, as long as games are culturally relevant (which they are, look at those sales numbers) feminist critique will not "step off" your hobby. Get used to it.

I think the grinding amount of misogynist talk or "You are a misogynist because x" articles really turn people off. Yes we need some presence of Femansit critique but i find that coming at gaming from that narrow ideological nagle is tiresome if we get too much of it. We see a LOT of gender discussion in op-eds these days and much of it pushes an agenda.

I also take some issue with some of the basic ideas that tend to go into the "Feminist Critique" Just because you have a women's studies or 'communications' degree does not mean you can't embarrass yourself by trying to tackle topics without enough in depth knowledge. You can't just let your 'feminist perspective' color EVERYTHING you say about a subject. There needs to be little perspective in your writing unless you are blinded by a preconceived agenda. Overzealous 'vagina warriors' talking about 'male tears' are eye-rollingly bad. It ends up sounding like "A christian critique of games" or the like.

Sometimes i think if you go looking for sexism and oppression... you're going to find it. Modern Feminism has somewhat of an identity crisis and anyone who attempts to cirque feminism it's self from he outside gets lots of ugly labels applied to them.

But that's just by ingrained patriarchal oppressive privilege talking i guess.

Feminist critique is about critiquing art from the point of view of women, half the human population. If the idea of examining art from that vantage point is some sort of insidious "agenda" to you then I don't know what to say to that.

Though I will add that this video is relevant if you want to talk about zealous voices on "sides" of this "debate" making members of their group look bad:


This also address the "communications degree" thing you brought up.

People acting like Sarkeesian's critiques are a personal attack, or that the Quinn "scandal" is some kind of "aha!" moment against feminists or women in gaming are delusional. And yes there is a lot of disagreement between feminists, that's why there are different "waves"/schools of thought within feminism. We're talking about a field dedicated to addressing issues related to half of the people on the planet (because "regular" studies were not doing so) OF COURSE it's broad and there are disagreements within it. That's why having more voices, not less, weigh in is a good thing.

 

[Grape_Nuts]

On the one hand, being worried about what forced diversity might do to the video games industry is a valid concern. On the other hand, it can also bring a lot of interesting, fun stuff to the table. It will require sacrifices on both sides. If the male character can be drawn and quartered (or suffer any number of other gruesome deaths), equality means the same thing can happen to anyone else. If it's going to be "I can watch thousands of male characters die agonizing deaths, but don't you dare shove a female character", then we might as well not bother.

 

[idarkphoenixi]

I'm just tired of having people take amazing games and intentionally search for things to offend them. Ohh GTA and Red Dead Revolver have hookers in them and you can kill them if you choose to, this game hates women!

Anytime a game includes a sexy female, boom, instantly derided for objectifying women. Just lay off already and enjoy yourself for once.

Believe me, I'm just as tired of the middle-aged-grizzled-white-guy-with-a-dark-past-looking-for-redemption as the next guy but that doesn't mean I want EVERY game to include people from every spectrum simply so it can be called politically correct. I play games for fun, not social justice.

This kind of change needs to happen naturally, not be shoehorned in just to appeal to the tumblr bloggers. If Dead or Alive wants to sexualise women, then freaking let them! That's their choice as developers. There's no reason we can't have both, let it be the choice of the creators and if you don't like what the final product offers don't buy it. Let your wallets decide, not your overly-critical blogging rants about "sexy womens in dem games grrr"

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

Good grief.

Listen to me, all of you. These critics of your precious games only have as much agency as you let them. I don't understand why you think a few feminist vloggers can persuade major gaming companies to remake everything in accordance with some justice agenda when we collectively can't even get someone like EA to make a sequel to a classic game that isn't broken, stripped of features, crippled by microtransactions or online-only. What on earth makes you think all the publishers are going to suddenly turn around and go "Mmm. You know what, let's listen to this tiny sample size and get rid of anything potentially offensive to Anita Sarkeesian"?

The only agency they have is the same agency we have. The more you keep attacking them to try and push them out altogether, the more you draw in outside voices who will defend their right to be part of the hobby. If you just a) ignore them or b) politely outline your disagreement, you won't be giving them any more agency than you yourself have.

 

[Kittyhawk]

I agree that some tropes have been used in the past, but I also have to agree that things aren't as bad as they once were in the 80 and 90's. We've progressed through games improving slowly, but unfortunately some of the gaming audience have yet to grow up and improve similarly. Overall, games ins still a male dominated industry so they audience has to be sold to as well as actually make the games.

Its hard to deal with for many. Through even discussion we can gradually change things for the better. Try not to let the tide of one sided feminism drown us all in dumbed down games.

 

[Something Amyss]

Believe me, I'm just as tired of the middle-aged-grizzled-white-guy-with-a-dark-past-looking-for-redemption as the next guy but that doesn't mean I want EVERY game to include people from every spectrum simply so it can be called politically correct.

That's good. You oppose something that as far as I can tell virtually nobody is saying.

You might as well be complaining about the impact of the coalition of fictional characters we tell our children about (Santa, the Easter Bunny, the stork) on gaming while you're at it. Or "look, I'm for gun control as much as the next guy, but I don't think mandatory death for every person who has ever owned a gun is a wise step."

 

[MrHide-Patten]

I think we need to define the difference between Feminists and Radical Feminists. It's like saying all Islamics want to kill everybody for not believing in Allah, or saying all Christians are mentally disabled rednecks, they're grand sweeping generalizations that just make everybody angry.

One can be for equal female representation and not be a raving douche about it. Personally I want more women in games for entirely selfish reasons; because boobs. Man pecks do not do it for me lads, I've had enough.

 

[Kingjackl]

There's nothing wrong with feminism; feminism is one of the worthiest social causes out there, and if there's any medium that could benefit from a feminist perspective it's gaming. Contrary to popular belief, feminism isn't about replacing women with men as the oppressed gender, it's about creating equality. Any feminist who says otherwise is an extremist that should not be taken as representative of a larger group.

There might be a problem with how feminism in gaming is currently represented. So much of feminist writing in the gaming media at the moment just amounts to clickbait and meaningless call-outs. I've seen gaming people on Twitter, generally males, who have a tendency to retweet every single article written by woman that has anything to do with gaming, and I can't help but feel like they're patronising them. Rather than trying to support a well-written think-piece from a minority viewpoint, they're just giving them a pat on the head as if to say "good for you, you wrote a thing". In the long-term, this can actually be harmful for a writer's development because it's encourages them that they are untouchable and can do no wrong. Whereas often the best feedback a writer can get is honest, constructive criticism. It's harmful to assume that any criticism of a woman's work is inherently sexist, because it ultimately just creates a victim culture. While there are dickheads on the Internet, most of what they do is less about hatred of woman and more about bullying, which tends to target the things that make a person stand out, because they think that is what they are insecure about.

Clickbaity stuff is a problem for the industry in general, and I think the current frustrations with feminism is less to do with any flaws in feminism and more to do with the way it's been adopted by a 24-hour news & social media culture. That's why we should have more feminist commenters like Anita Sarkeesian who focus more on long-form analysis and are actually qualified to talk about the subject academically. More essays and feature articles, less tweets about why this white fiftteen year-old Youtuber shouldn't make stupid rape jokes.

 

[Panda Pandemic]

That implies that you own the hobby and they don't. Entire premise fails.

You don't even detail a specific policy to complain about. You just act like diversity means the method must involve somehow stifling creativity. So it fails also in that it doesn't seem to be a response to a method anyone suggested