Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?

[Mandalore_15]

"Our hobby"? Who are this "we" you're talking about? Just curious, because i've been playing games for 30 years and I sure as h**k aint one of them.

I sorta explained this above, but just for clarity by "our" I mean the community of this website.

But I'm a member of this community, and I would call myself a feminist. Are you saying that people "of this website" are not feminists?

Look, here's the thing: The state of some parts of the gaming community (the usual portrayal of women) right now is like bad breath. It sucks to have, but it's kind of difficult to smell it yourself. So if I did have it, I would actually be glad if someone would point it out to me, so i had a chance to fix it.

OR. I could just yell at anyone trying to bring it up, that's fine too... But probably won't get me any dates.

See what I'm trying to say?

As I said I explained this above:

OK, perhaps I worded my introductory statement poorly. I wasn't trying to imply that people who identify as feminist cannot claim gaming as a hobby, or that there is some kind of division between the two. What I meant to say was "our hobby" (as in users of this website, not claiming my own personal ownership) and feminists "stepping off" meaning stopping criticising, at least in the sense of the artistic content of the games. At any rate it was meant to be an open question. I absolutely accept that people should put forward arguments for what they want to see in games, but I take issue with people criticising a game because it is NOT what they wanted to see, at least in terms of is demographic inclusivity.

I only stated that gaming is "our hobby" because, presumably, everybody who uses this website considers gaming to be a hobby of theirs. Some may be feminists, some not. I presume that most feminists who criticise gaming are themselves gamers, so no, there is no necessary division between the two.

See this is the problem, such a minor and innocuous use of language has already proved to be completely inflammatory in this thread as, usually with these kinds of issues, people jump at the chance to polarise and be offended (or in this case accuse others of polarisation).

But with regards to your analogy, I've got to say no, I'm afraid I don't really see what you're saying. =P

 

[shrekfan246]

As for why people even bother posting and rage? For my part I have absolutely nothing against these diversity incentives, I have no fear for "mah games". My problem lies with the idea that if I opt out and make a game featuring a white male protagonist with attractive female eyecandy galore, I will be labeled a bro, a sexist, misogynist regressive.

I said it above, but I think it's just a fact that people have to live with that if they're going to be creating something released for consumption to the public, they're inevitably going to be getting people who love or hate them because of their own perceived political/moral standings, rather than anything actually explicitly laid out within the product itself. It's up to the creator to decide how much they let that bother them, and to just try pushing back at the wave of intolerance with patience and care.

I mean, I get it, I've been labeled an "SJW" and "white knight" myself because of the many times I've tried getting people to stop leaping to conclusions when it comes to discussions of people like Anita Sarkeesian (even despite having stated multiple times that I've never even watched her videos nor do I have the desire to). But the labels are going to come regardless, because the internet has given a voice to every single person who can't or won't say those types of things to another person's face.

The discourse has turned nasty and muddled, perhaps beyond repair at this point.

Well, on that we most certainly agree.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

See this is the problem, such a minor and innocuous use of language has already proved to be completely inflammatory in this thread as, usually with these kinds of issues, people jump at the chance to polarise and be offended (or in this case accuse others of polarisation).

Neither minor nor innocuous.

Muddled communication starts with the OP. If you're getting consistent misapprehensions of what you intended to say, the correct conclusion to reach is that you communicated your premise poorly. Not that people are "jumping at the chance" to misunderstand you.

 

[giles]

YES it is.
I want a more inclusive and diverse landscape in pop culture media (movies AND games, starting with movies because they need to get their shit together being the older medium and all) and I will keep critizing the fact that women are underrepresented in the industry and well written female characters are basically unicorns at this point. HOWEVER. I'm so fucking tired of having to associate myself with these "misogyny" whiners, "rape" criers and "patriarchy" conspiracy theorists. Go away! Nobody asked for you to show up and talk about how this and that relates to rape, what's your obsession with it anyway you weirdos? Go back to your "gender studies" university courses and make sculptures of vulvae or whatever.
I frequently have gaming nights with my little sister and that's all the motivation I need to argue for a better depiction of women in games, I don't need all this talk about raping people, boy's club, sex objects you name it.

 

[Supdupadog]

This reminds me of when someone wanted to point out that Bioshock Infinite and The last of Us, while being standouts in terms of female characters in video games, still had some cliches on them that where based in some pretty old sexist thinking.

And the internet decided to react to that by going apeshit. Because the good stuff out weighs the bad stuff like 85/15 so that has to round out to progressive feminist right?

So I'm more concerned with the internet not being able to discuss sexist, homophobic, racist stuff without going nuclear. The idea that you can still criticize something good and you like being too far out there for a lot of people.

Because now-a-days everyone is trained to reflexively respond to overt bigotry, like celebrities who go on weird tirades about slavery and professional athletes who go rambo on their girlfriend's faces. Which is nice. But when you wanna talk about the subtle things, the kind of bigotry designed to slip past that modern filter, it gets impossible.

because internet does not do subtly.

 

[Gronk]

But with regards to your analogy, I've got to say no, I'm afraid I don't really see what you're saying. =P

What I meant was just that I don't think they should go away, because if that many people are saying something about "our hobby", then chances are there is some truth behind it. Now for me personally, I have no problems seeing what the critizism is about, but even if i didn't, I hope I would be open minded enough to realize that they could be right.

 

[Fox12]

Lumping all women and feminists under a single label is as silly as lumping all gamers under a single label. It doesn't work that way. Did you know that there are feminists who don't like Zoe Quinn? It's true. There are actually branches and denomination, and under that there are individuals with their own thoughts and opinions. Incidentally, what do you mean by "our" hobby? No one owns gaming as a hobby. Are you talking about straight white male gamers? Hardcore gamers? How would you even define a hardcore gamer?

Also, you've completely misunderstood what the Zoe Quinn issue is about. It's not about Zoe Quinn being a feminist, it has to do with corruption in the industry. She actually sabotaged a feminist fundraiser. By claiming that people are mad about feminism all you've done is derail the central argument.

 

[burnout02urza]

It's long past time for the feminists to take a good, hard look at themselves. They're taking everything as an excuse to be offended - More, they're DEMANDING that people comply with them, so that their delicate sensibilities aren't offended. They're assaulting the hobby under the guise of pushing for political correctness...And with the recent scandal, we've seen how many of them are actually insane.

Like, they're literally frothing at the mouth.

I don't really understand why anyone's listening to them, to be honest. I get the feeling that people are too afraid to be labelled as 'sexist', where the really radical, really crazy ones should invite open and public mockery.

 

[Mid Boss]

Feminism is the belief that the two genders are equal and should be treated as such. So it boggles my mind when I see women say "I'm not a feminist." So, you would like to lose the ability to own property and vote? Because, without feminism, you'd go back to being a second class citizen.

The problem with feminism is that it's being hijacked by extremists. The people who desperately want to find something wrong with EVERYTHING EVER and the people who think women are innately superior. I just had to unfriend someone on facebook because she was posting how much all men are scum. I responded "Hey now. " and she said "Well, you're the very rare exception." Can you imagine if I had said all women are whores except the ones on my friends list? I'd be fucking lynched! These are NOT feminists they are female supremacists. When you go on about how the other gender is all shit then you aren't fighting for equality anymore. You're propping yourself up as the superior gender. These people are giving the anti-feminist crowd all the ammunition they need.

So now anti-feminists (male supremacists) are armed with blog posts and tumblr tangents. It doesn't matter if those posts are the rantings of idiots and female supremacists. In their mind they finally have proof of what their paranoia and insecurities have been telling them for years. Women are coming to destroy everything they love. It's like taking pictures and blog posts of the Westboro Baptist church and saying this is what all Christian are. Even though the vast majority of Christians blatantly fucking hate Westboro.

Both sides are dragging the word feminism through the mud. Both sides are a bunch of reactionary dumb asses running around screeching and throwing their shit at each other like a pack of monkeys.

 

[CymbaIine]

All politics need to step off our hobby.

Let the content creators have full creative control of their content.

If you don't like female characters in sexy outfits or don't like repetitive male protagonists, don't buy the game. Let the sales speak for themselves if people want something different. If these games sell well, then people obviously want to play these games, don't tell them what they should or should not like.

You can't claim video games are art, and then try to censor it. Take your politics elsewhere.

Ah yes, one of the signs of good art is when it's subject and content is determined by how well it sells.

 

[burnout02urza]

So now we've got the extremists on the other end of the spectrum, the feminism haters, armed with blog posts and tumblr tangents crying that the feminists are coming to destroy everything they love.

Both sides are dragging the word feminism through the mud. Both sides are a pack of reactionary dumb asses running around screeching and throwing their shit at each other like a pack of monkeys.

Well, yeah. Whatever the movement was before, it's mutated in something that's corrosive and terrible.

They literally are coming to destroy everything we love. There's no question about that: The feminist rhetoric is just getting crazier and crazier. Like, who do these people think they are, really? Did God give them a blanket pass to be offended by everything?

Games are bending over to accommodate them - Like the new Lara Croft - and it isn't enough. In fact, nothing is ever going to be enough for them: The only solution is to laugh them off and cut them out entirely. If I was a game developer, I'd be making games to mock them, so the other side would rally to me. It's not like the insane feminists actually buy games, anyway: The just make noise.

edit: Frankly, I was all for diversity - But this issue has polarized me. If you give them an inch, they'll fight for a mile. You can't give these people anything at all. They have to be completely discredited, and - to be brutally blunt - crushed. Because *that's what they're trying to do to us.*

In the words of that guy from 300 - "GIVE THEM NOTHING, BUT TAKE FROM THEM...EVERYTHING!"

 

[CymbaIine]

All politics need to step off our hobby.

Let the content creators have full creative control of their content.

If you don't like female characters in sexy outfits or don't like repetitive male protagonists, don't buy the game. Let the sales speak for themselves if people want something different. If these games sell well, then people obviously want to play these games, don't tell them what they should or should not like.

You can't claim video games are art, and then try to censor it. Take your politics elsewhere.

Ah yes, one of the signs of good art is when it's subject and content is determined by how well it sells.

Some art, yes. I suggest you look up Monet.

Never heard of him so he can't be much cop.

Seriously though you can't go crying ART on one hand and CONSUMER PRODUCT on the other. Of course there is some overlap but you can't pick the most convenient parts of both (lack of censorship for art and let the market decide for product)and construct an argument around it. Well you can but it won't be a strong one.

 

[Suhi89]

I have a lot of problems with a lot of things self identified feminists say, both in general and about gaming, but my God is this a needlessly inflammatory article headline and poorly thought out article.

Feminists have as much right to play and have an opinion on games as anyone else. Their opinions may be based on flawed logic but that's not exclusive to feminists and I don't think we should expel those who enjoy RTS games either even though they're clearly wrong (I kid).

Most feminists just want there to be better representation of women in video games. That is a perfectly valid desire. I happen to disagree with much of what they say, but I defend their right to put their view forward, preferably free from abuse, threats or people telling them they're not welcome in our community.

 

[visiblenoise]

If the writers don't have the balls to brush off the feminist/extremist/whatever criticism they are bound to get in this climate, and write whatever the hell they want, maybe it's just as well that they don't write whatever the hell they want. It would be a sad thing, but they're ultimately the ones taking the brunt of the criticism, not their audience.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Well, yeah. Whatever the movement was before, it's mutated in something that's corrosive and terrible.

No, it didn't.

What did happen was a lot of people with raging confirmation biases and an inability to think critically about the things they see and read conflated the activities and statements of fringers with a social movement they didn't particularly understand.

They literally are coming to destroy everything we love.

The human body is not capable of enough laughter to properly respond to statements like this.

But, the point was, you can't call something art and then try to censor it.

I'm not entirely sure what your position is on this, but criticism =/= censorship.