Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?

[Ichiro Oogami]

Here's why I think the reaction to feminist critiques of games is so vociferous:

1) Fear that feminist critique will lead to a climate of repression. As MysticSlayer pointed out, feminists critique video games to "(get) people to question stereotypes that they probably didn't even realize that they had" in an attempt to create change. A developer would then go "maybe we shouldn't put X in; it could be sexist or exclusionary." But if such a sentiment becomes widespread, "Maybe we shouldn't put X in" becomes "You must not even suggest X or you're fired. We denounce such bigotry!" Conservatives who work in Hollywood often have to hide their conservatism if they want to keep getting work; only the big names can afford to be open about it. Universities often have "speech codes" that harshly punish non-politically correct speech. Several people have been fired for saying things on Twitter that weren't PC, even if they weren't insulting.

This sort of oppressive climate is no different from a law against non-PC speech. They don't want creatives having to fear for their jobs just because they made, or spoke in favor of, a game that doesn't put a check mark in all the diversity boxes. They don't want it so that someone who makes such a game is considered a bigot who needs to be run out on a rail. The unspoken assumption behind "X trope/game/what-have-you is sexist" is that it should not be made because it somehow promotes hate or bigotry.

2) Racialized insults. Oftentimes, I see the term straight white male thrown around like a slur. These, along with the "dudebros," are supposed to be the "bad" guys of gaming that must be defeated if there is ever to be true inclusion. To the types that use this meme, only the Evil White Male is holding back the inevitable progress of gaming with his degenerate, rapacious ways. Advancing the medium, therefore, means not catering to their tastes, which are inherently seen as disordered or sickening by the SJW types.

Naturally, people don't like being cursed for their race or their sex, so they respond quite angrily. To add insult to injury, those who proclaim the inherent evil of straight white males often pride themselves on their anti-racism...while being racially hostile. It's an inherently hypocritical position to take, and the complainers know it.

/-/-/

That's how I see this matter, anyway.

 

[McMarbles]

What matters is whether or not this is going to start affecting the quality of the games we get in future.

Out of curiosity: Is this wondering if games will get better for everyone or get better only for you. I'm not trying to call you out as an egotist, but more often than not when I hear this "will games get better" question in these discussions, it almost always comes from the perspective of an individual who, more often than not, is a man who isn't a feminist and, as a result, probably doesn't understand how the changes being called for would make games more enjoyable for a very large group of people.

I think that's a big assumption to make regarding the identity of people posing such a question. But at any rate, it's about allowing people the creative decision to use characters that suit the story. I for one really enjoyed Gone Home, so it's not like I am against interesting female characters in games or anything.

At any rate, games aren't democratic or utilitarian. The best work is always done when the creator makes what they want to make. Game design by focus group is creative suicide.

I don't think we have to worry about the AAA-industry suddenly switching to game design by focus group.

Because that's what they're already doing.

The thing is, their focus group consists entirely of the people already buying their games. And that just isn't healthy.

 

[carnex]

I don't think we have to worry about the AAA-industry suddenly switching to game design by focus group.

Because that's what they're already doing.

The thing is, their focus group consists entirely of the people already buying their games. And that just isn't healthy.

Nope, they try different things from time to time. It just didn't pay off so far, that's the problem. When a game with different mechanics or different something else hits the gold, everyone rushes in. Indies and AAA publishers. I just didn't happen yet. And to be honest they don't try all that hard or often but when average AAA game spends more than 100.000.000 USD on development and marketing combined I can see why they are not all that adventurous.

 

[Weener]

A lot of people say "feminists will ruin games!". I think that possibility is partially true, the reaction of some devs to not get on to a feminist hit list could lead them to making safer choices and creating bland products. And then I won't buy those products. It also may lead to some games being better, which would be great. We'll see. Anita Sarkeesian and her ilk will always be around. I don't agree with her on many points and find her tactics for publicity disgusting, but if you don't like something don't buy it. I get offended when she says that I'm too dumb to understand that I'm being brainwashed by the patriarchy. I buy things that interest me, and with an industry this big I'll always find things that interest me. Let Anita and those like her argue their shallow arguments, they feel entitled that everything that's made should cater to them. It's childish. But if it leads to things being better great, better stuff for me. If it leads to some things being worse, great, the bad stuff will get swept away with the rest of the garbage and I won't buy it. Whining about something is free, but buying something isn't. And the free market will keep on chugging along with or without radical feminists, so I don't really give a hoot what they say or do.

 

[SamTheNewb]

One.
You can't tell somebody to "step off of" a hobby. They are enthusiastic about it, and they will contribute to the discussion about the hobby.

Two.
Game developers must be allowed to capitulate to their audiences, so, that is fine as well.

You are included in "our" because you are a user of this site, which I stated was who I was referring to with the determiner. But if you want to go ahead and criticise someone without even reading what they have to say then be my guest.

I will criticize you based on the fact that you don't seem to understand what you are saying. You say that people here can be included in the game playing hobby even if they are a feminist. But feminists are not allowed to be actively involved in it. You tell them they can be here, but they have to "step off". You tell them they share our hobby, but they can't be a part of its discussions. You tell them, you are welcome, BUT shut up.

I say, we follow the hobby because we care about it. Because we care about it, we all should speak up.

 

[Callate]

It's already been said, of course, that feminists are already part of the hobby; while it's tempting at times to suggest they're some kind of external force jumping on a hot button in that new, trendy video-game thing, I doubt that's the case for the vast majority.

Nor would I ever suggest that feminism has no place in video games, or shouldn't have a voice therein.

I do find the current atmosphere surrounding such issues more than a little troubling; I worry about game developers having to spend so much time focusing on what they're trying not to express, rather than what they are. I also worry about the sense that women in the industry and female characters cannot be subject to criticism from men without it drawing immediate cries of misogyny; that past discrimination and mistreatment (however real, and on-going) effectively allow some to write a blank check from a bottomless account.

In an era where one ill-worded tweet or overheard joke is enough to get someone fired, it should hardly be surprising when so much of the visible disagreement with so-called "social justice warrior" issues come from anonymous goons who don't feel they have anything to lose by behaving abominably. The environment has created a feedback loop that allows such people to feel that they're rebels and martyrs fighting against an overwhelming and omnipresent force, a cycle that empowers paranoia and everyone's entitlement to immediately expect the worst of those with whom they disagree.

Anita Sarkeesian is linked Entertainment Weekly's blog- not Kotaku, or Rock Paper Shotgun or the Escapist, but a mainstream, mass-consumption periodical. As I've said before, I'm not going to campaign for Sarkeesian to go away, let alone say there's anything okay with people harassing or threatening her. But while she sometimes raises valid points or at least interesting ideas for debate, sometimes she states the questionable as unimpeachable reality- and other times clearly has put the narrative she's trying to spin far out in advance of what basic research would suggest. I'm troubled that she may in some cases be the only voice educating people who play games but would never go some place like The Escapist, let alone delve into the forums there, and that they might be inclined to parrot back her claims as an unquestionable authority.

It bothers me that there's really no one in the mainstream to say, "Look, that's going too far, and here is why." The reflexive will to call those who diagree misogynistic, immature or deluded makes it unlikely such a thing will ever manifest. One can certainly argue that the status quo in video game development has real problems, but it's just a rock that can and is being chipped away, not an actual countervening force. If there was something in place that actually offered organized and sensible rebuttal, it would have the benefit of focusing and refining reforms that most feminists would genuinely like to see while rounding off extremists on the feminist side and undermining the sense of the "anti-SJ" side that they're screaming into an uncaring storm, so they'd better scream louder.

I think we'd all benefit from a developer being able to say "Look, this is the story we wanted to tell; this character made sense for us within this context, and the way we see them moving through that world only worked if they were this person. It's not the only story we want to tell, or the last story we expect to tell, and if you see a way for a character you'd identify with to work in another story, we'd be interested in hearing about it."

As opposed to

Leading question
Hesitant, hopefully placating answer
LIAR!

It's like watching a bad relationship.

 

[Story]

This isn't "our" hobby because nobody OWNS this hobby.

"Our hobby"? Who owns it, exactly? I thought gaming was open to anyone that wanted to be a part of it.

As long there are people who use phrases like "our hobby" like in "not theirs": Nope. They should stay were they are and criticize the fuck out of games, gaming and gamers. Because such phrases show that "we" have still a lot of growing up to do. Can we please stop acting like Gaming is some sort of country club. Enjoy that people actually care enough about games that they actually think about them.

Look, here's the thing: The state of some parts of the gaming community (the usual portrayal of women) right now is like bad breath. It sucks to have, but it's kind of difficult to smell it yourself. So if I did have it, I would actually be glad if someone would point it out to me, so i had a chance to fix it.

And that awesome guy said pretty much everything that needs to be said.



And on another topic of TLOU/Ellie:
Yeah. To be honest: There are much deeper charakters in other Media. But she's written good enough to actually be called a charakter. To have some actual meaning for the player aside from cold gameplay.
I agree: Games still have a lot to learn. But hell: Games exist since around 40 years. As a Media to tell a story even less. Movies are around for far over a 100 years. Give Games some time and acknowledge the steps they take.

Here are just three very excellent posts.
OP, your topic title was poorly worded.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

If only people would realize the simple laws of how consumers and products work:

#1 Does it make money?
#2 Is it legal?
#3 Is it a completely optional purchase?
#4 Is it safe i.e. doesn't cause any direct harm to anyone?

As long as "yes" is the answer to all 4 of the above, the product will continue being produced for the foreseeable future (#1 being key) regardless of what anyone says or does.

...they would quickly realize that feminists are completely harmless. They aren't going to take anything away.

Also within the feminist itself you will find a shit-load of opposing and conflicting views, so can people please stop referring to "feminists" as some kind of united army that is invading? They are a vocal minority. A very tiny minority. Treat them as such.

How does one "treat" a minority?

By not making such threads about them and by not giving news/editor articles about feminism 50x more views than their average articles.

As you can see, people are failing

 

[Sansha]

The way I see it, gaming isn't gender-exclusive. It never has been. Even if it were, the attitude we should have is "You want to play? Cool, have a controller."

But I also see it as people trying desperately to change the hobby into something that suits them. They don't like the way games are made, so they're trying to change it. They're not gamers themselves, but they still take offense to them. Why?

I honestly feel Anita and her cronies are making a huge deal over nothing - gaming doesn't NEED to be all-encompassing and representative, does it?

And, while I'm here, why in fuck's name is Alyx Vance constantly left out of strong female character discussions? She's brilliant - strong and determined, protective and caring, but not without flaw. Nor is she a total Mary-Sue badass; she spends half of Episode 2 recovering from a horrific injury, and I feel the way that was written didn't portray her as a helpless victim.

 

[mecegirl]

I just think it is funny that people think all this feminist critique of games is a new thing. It's always been a thing, its just that the mainstream gaming "news" outlets are paying attention now. We are arguing about the same shit that I've been arguing about on the internet since I started spending time on the internet sixteen years ago. And it wouldn't surprise me if gamers older than I am remember similar conversations going back even further.

It's also funny how similar the attitude between gamers on video game websites and superhero comic book readers on comic book websites are. Trust me guys, you aren't the only ones dealing with the dreaded(insert sarcasm here) feminist critique.

At any rate. I am a feminist. I'm a gamer. As others have said, feminists have always been a portion of gamers. It's probably why you don't see much feminist analysis of the Anita videos. Large portions of what she has to say regarding tropes is feminist 101, so there is no need to address it. Unless you want to nit pick it to death, and most of us can't be arsed because we've moved on to other topics.

 

[small]

im glad they are calling out some things that are sexist in games as it will make developers become more creative and original.

take a location such as a brothel or strip club found in so many games. it is sexiest and its freaking boring. i want different locations,not the same place over and over constantly with a bit of titilation. they are becoming like the new sewer levels that everyone hates.

 

[verdant monkai]

I think anyone that is trying to alter or police any kind of art work which is being created by people for entertainment purposes, should fuck off and jump off a cliff.

If by feminists you mean women who are civilly asking for better representation, I don't think they should step off. I think they should step in. Stop whining about female representation, and create some games in which they actually do feel well represented.

 

[MeatMachine]

The feminists (at least the ones in the spotlight, who aren't the particularly rational ones) who are throwing their goofy theories at everyone who walks by is incredibly annoying. I don't like it.

But are they taking away from the medium? Are they harming me or my hobby? Are they hindering creative progress?

Yappy dogs as they are, they aren't doing anything that rightfully SHOULD bother me, other than spewing out opinions I find cringe-inducingly stupid with a deplorable sense of self-rightiousness. In that regard, they're really no different than anyone else.

If you like them, support them. If you think they're crazy and one-sided, do what you do with everyone else who is crazy and one-sided and blow them the fuck off. Seriously, the more you try to fight them off, the more they can legitimately point at your behavior as provocative, which essentially throws kerosine into the bonfire.

Just let this passing trend die the slow, shriveling death it deserves and quit breathing more life into it with every new debate thread.

 

[AkaDad]

The feminists (at least the ones in the spotlight, who aren't the particularly rational ones) who are throwing their goofy theories at everyone who walks by is incredibly annoying. I don't like it.

But are they taking away from the medium? Are they harming me or my hobby? Are they hindering creative progress?

Yappy dogs as they are, they aren't doing anything that rightfully SHOULD bother me, other than spewing out opinions I find cringe-inducingly stupid with a deplorable sense of self-rightiousness. In that regard, they're really no different than anyone else.

If you like them, support them. If you think they're crazy and one-sided, do what you do with everyone else who is crazy and one-sided and blow them the fuck off. Seriously, the more you try to fight them off, the more they can legitimately point at your behavior as provocative, which essentially throws kerosine into the bonfire.

Just let this passing trend die the slow, shriveling death it deserves and quit breathing more life into it with every new debate thread.

Calling feminists yappy dogs, crazy, one-sided and self-righteous is in no way provocative and throwing kerosene into the bonfire. Amirite?

 

[senordesol]

No, feminists don't need to step off of 'our' hobby (whatever that means). Critique and introspection is how art evolves. It's how you make better artists.

No one is coming to take your games away. No one is going to castrate Call of Duty. The worst -the absolute WORST- that will happen long-term, is that developers will think just a little longer about the roles of female characters in their games.

Oh the horror.

 

[Ephidel]

The only people who can censor games is the government. So maybe everyone should stop throwing around that word.

Perhaps you should look at South Park : The Stick of Truth, released earlier this year.

No-one in Europe censored the game. Ubisoft "censored" the game.

The allegedly offending content would've stayed in if it were up to the governments of Europe.

 

[DrOswald]

Short answer? No.

There has been some collateral damage and hysteria in the push for equality to be sure, but that is part of the growing pains of improving video games as a whole. Having feminists in games is good.

 

[Maxtro]

Video games are one of the few mediums men have left were we can oggle women outside of porn.

Nobody should be able to take that away from men.

Now excuse me while I go play some Dragon's Crown.

 

[senordesol]

No, feminists don't need to step off of 'our' hobby (whatever that means). Critique and introspection is how art evolves. It's how you make better artists.

No one is coming to take your games away. No one is going to castrate Call of Duty. The worst -the absolute WORST- that will happen long-term, is that developers will think just a little longer about the roles of female characters in their games.

Oh the horror.

that may well all be true but it doesn't have to be overrepresented by the feminists highlighted in the ongoing saga.

"gaming" doesn't need genuinely radical societal views impressed upon it from the outside by some clique especially given the fact it moderately leans that way anyway.

representations of women in gaming (for example) are regularly taken to task by member of this very forum and in other forums across the net.

what exists "in game and online" is a actually completely different.

and people don't go looking for gaming websites to be lectured on matters socio-political that sound like something for collage campus activists meeting.

there's a reason "the mainstream" is "moderate".

because most people are.

this isn't really about "Feminism".

I'm not sure what you're arguing. Nothing is being 'impressed upon' the industry. There's no board or committee that requires a game to have 'X value of female representation'. And no one is asking for that. All of these critiques, discussions, and 'lectures' are completely optional in their consumption.

If you don't want to be a part of it, you don't have to be.

 

[Jenvas1306]

gaming is younger than literature
gaming is younger than theater
gaming is younger than movies

gaming just had a growth spurt and is growing hair in new and interesting places now
gaming has acne and feels awkward in the suddenly changing body with new weird feelings
gaming wants to be all grown up but doesnt know how and is still afraid of many things
gaming gets bullied, is a bully, is loved, loves, is hated, hates and has a tantrum of its life being ruined everytime something is unpleasant.
gaming makes drama, tons of drama

gaming isnt grown up yet, its a teenager and teenagers are pretty difficult, for themselves and everyone involved with them.