Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?

[runic knight]

Well, got to write something I am sure many people would be surprised to hear me say.

No, I don't think feminism should "step off" of our hobby or gaming. It is an ideological view a valid as others and if someone wants to make games based from it or even examine games through that lens, then that is merely adding to our overall gaming culture and is a good thing.

Now, what we need to "step off" of gaming is the manufacturing and manipulation of outrage and controversy for attack and deflection of criticism. So you know, the parasites that try to cling to gaming as a whole, blaming it for social ills and trying to leverage guilt and an ideal of moral righteousness to impact gaming based on their view. I think we know right away the sort of people I am talking about. You know, like Thomson and his anti-violence campaigns back in the 90's. Someone who would emotionally manipulate outrage and anger in order to spin it into a narrative to sell an idea that gamers are bad and that something needs to be one about it.

That sort of mentality is something gaming doesn't need.


Feminism though? Hell, bring more in it. I would love to see devs working to share that ideology within the context of a game or trying to perform a deconstruction of an existing game based on how it relates to feminism. Shame all we get now is the likes of Anita.

 

[Phasmal]

An honest question to the feminists, have you tried not being offended?

Have you?

Honestly, look at the forums these days, do you see more upset feminists or people upset ABOUT feminists?

I think some people are finally starting to realise that they can't just shout over these conversations, and that upsets them.
Hell, I've had people argue with me that `the minority shouldn't be listened to`.

What exactly do you think you are going to lose?

Either way, I can't help but see the funny side when all these threads are around. We're clearly not the offended ones any more.

 

[carnex]

http://boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/

7 out of the top ten draw their source material from geekdom. Avatar had a anti-corporation/pro-green message. Black Widow is the Sarkisian definition of "Fighting Fuck toy" It's not about playing games, anyone with opposable thumbs can play a video game. Its about pushing forth an agenda. Control the culture, control the message.

As much as I dislike feminism, and there is a LOT to objectively dislike about feminism, I wasn't talking about that this time. What you wrote has nothing to do with diving into the nerd culture. I, for one, have no love for superhero comics. Vast majority of those that I tried to read caused me just to notice how damn moronic every character in it is. But I still enjoyed Avengers, Iron man 3, Captain America, Batman movies etc as big dumb action movies. You don't need to obsess about those characters to enjoy spectacle.

 

[Maximum Bert]

I dont believe in politicising a creative medium no matter what it is so in that respect they should back the hell off. If someone wants to politicise their game or be politically correct (lol) then they should be able to if someone dosent want to then they should be able to.

Let the people who design games do what they want with them whether it goes to or against what you like putting restrictions on creativity no matter how apparently slight is a bad idea period.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I dont believe in politicising a creative medium no matter what it is so in that respect they should back the hell off. If someone wants to politicise their game or be politically correct (lol) then they should be able to if someone dosent want to then they should be able to.

Let the people who design games do what they want with them whether it goes to or against what you like putting restrictions on creativity no matter how apparently slight is a bad idea period.

So when did someone ever talk about putting restrictions on games? Seriously, this is the biggest common mistake I see in the anti-feminist camp. We've never wanted to restrict, forbid or deny anything. What we want is for gamer developers to put some extra effort into their representation of women in their games. We are quite literally asking the developers to make games we would like to play.

Essentially, what we are doing is asking developers to include or remove features in their games. Just like the people who wanted bunny hopping out of CS, the people who wanted ships in Wargame, the people who wanted more customization options in the sims etc.. How come "We want to see more women in your stories?" is more controversial than "I want you to include prestige class x in the next D&D RPG?" or "I want to see Captain America in the next Capcom vs Marvel?"

 

[tyriless]

I dont believe in politicising a creative medium no matter what it is so in that respect they should back the hell off. If someone wants to politicise their game or be politically correct (lol) then they should be able to if someone dosent want to then they should be able to.

Let the people who design games do what they want with them whether it goes to or against what you like putting restrictions on creativity no matter how apparently slight is a bad idea period.

Does all criticism totally stifle creativity? Or is it when it's about something you don't agree with? Should games be criticized at all? What about games that use racial stereotypes? Are blatantly homophobic? Depict all white males as sexist and racist hicks? Is there a line should be drawn or is everything open? What about godawful writing, that talks down to you like you were ten years old or an ending that fails to tie up any plot points? Those are creative endeavors, but now I can't tell them they suck?

This isn't about politics. This is about criticism. This is obviously criticism you don't agree with -whether a female character is well written, or the attitudes shown by a developer to a gender or race are, at the least, misguided- but it has it's place right along with the complaints about the Mass Effect 3 ending and how Bioshock Infinite felt more like a theme park and less like an actual interactive environment. I want a better story, with better protagonists, and better NPCs. Even more, I want to see more gamers of different races, age groups, and of both genders feel included and welcome to my hobby. A game that get's played with my loved ones and friends is one I can share, discuss, or even play multiplayer with. Those games I tend to replay and enjoy so much more than ones I've only played until I beat it, and then left it behind forever. So I tend to ask more from the developers, to write and design with a more inclusive (not exclusive) mindset. Don't just pander to 15-22 male demographic, because, I am not a teenage boy and I still love to game. I can appreciate tits in my face like the next heteromale, but I can appreciate a game both my wife and I enjoy playing more.

 

[tyriless]

\

So when did someone ever talk about putting restrictions on games? Seriously, this is the biggest common mistake I see in the anti-feminist camp. We've never wanted to restrict, forbid or deny anything. What we want is for gamer developers to put some extra effort into their representation of women in their games. We are quite literally asking the developers to make games we would like to play.

Essentially, what we are doing is asking developers to include or remove features in their games. Just like the people who wanted bunny hopping out of CS, the people who wanted ships in Wargame, the people who wanted more customization options in the sims etc.. How come "We want to see more women in your stories?" is more controversial than "I want you to include prestige class x in the next D&D RPG?" or "I want to see Captain America in the next Capcom vs Marvel?"

Oh man, can we get the new Captain Marvel, voiced by Jennifer Hale? I would shell out a preorder just for that!

In all seriousness, I wish I saw this post before I wrote mine, because it sums my thoughts on the subject pretty well.

 

[carnex]

-snip-

Art is to be criticized. Also, art is to contain anything artist wants to put in it. Homophobia? Check! Rape? Yep! Mass Extintions? You bet! Torture? But of course! Should we love it? Hell no, it's there most probable to cause us discomfort in the first place. Should you lie down and accept it? Well, this is where two schools we see on this forum get on their separate ways.

Both subscribe that you are n your right to point out that you are against those things in your medium, that they cause you discomfort etc.

But one stops at that while other goes further, into shaming, namecalling etc. Obviously I subscribe to more tolerant school of thought.

Other than that, vast majority of gamers would love to see more things, more diversity, innovations, new ideas, new angles etc.

Lets not create our own "Hay's code". Is that so bad to ask?

 

[Guerilla]

I see Adonis was banned for being rude to people again but I hope he's seeing this.

I know, that's why I said it pandered to them. Come on, keep up. You're so eager to go "Aha!" that you're missing my point.

Yes, you said it pandered to them and I said there's nothing wrong with that pandering or games being "cute pink shit". Apparently though that's a problem for you for whatever reason so you probably think that puzzle games are being sexist.

Ignoring that a like for "dark themes" wouldn't be considered in gendered terms by most, and that you're taking umbrage with capital-C political Conservatism when I mean little-c general conservatism (trying to conserve)... no, don't ignore any of that.

I don't have a problem with male sexuality. I have a problem when it bleeds into pop culture needlessly, especially with the advent of internet porn. I can keep those two instincts (for entertainment and titillation) separate enough, and I don't want serious media watered down by adolescent pandering. All this distinct from any gender politics. Kind of like how you're so "against the common denominator". Only, to you, "Tee hee hee boobies!" is somehow highbrow and worth defending so vehemently.

I feel you're the one selling men short by insisting men aren't interested enough in silly things like core game mechanics and narrative without the push of "Tee hee hee boobies!"

And it seems that you really have a real problem with human sexuality and you did nothing to disprove that. Sexuality bleeding to pop culture? There's a problem with that now? You really sound exactly like conservatives do, you know that right?

Your view of sexuality is no more nuanced than string bikinis and banana hammocks? Considering the full spectrum of sexuality and how it can be depicted and expressed, you find it fair and reasonable to present the ridiculous example of banana hammocks and S&M/bondage I provided under the blanket banner of "expressing sexuality"? No more charged or intrusive than an other expression of sexuality. All this while insisting there's a need not to pander to the lowest common denominator as an ideal because... reasons?

My view of sexuality INCLUDES string bikinis and banana hammocks, it's not limited to that. There's abslolutely nothing wrong with people being completely open with their sexuality even if it "bleeds" to pop-culture. Your views seems antiquated and prude.

You express that so categorically despite not knowing what I'm referring to and to what extent. If you think I'm saying "All games are sexist" or even "Most games are sexist", you're wrong, so nice straw man.

I said "it depends" and "maybe", implicitly asking for more context to judge on a case-by-case basis, and that's the attitude I approach sexism in games with. If that's too radical for you, we'll just have to agree to disagree because, let's face it, who has ever admitted they were wrong on the internet?

Yes, I express that categorically and you've done nothing this far to prove otherwise.

 

[Dastardly]

...have come under fire for being "sexist", and I can't for the life of me figure out why.

Ah, found the problem.

See, the fact that people like yourself can't "for the life of them" figure out why certain things might be sexist? That's exactly why there is so much discussion about it. It's a real issue, and it really happens. And while there are still so many people who can say, "I don't see what the problem is," there's an obligation to continue pointing out the problem.

Not to equate the two topics, but rather to draw a parallel between the thought process now and an era ago:

There were seriously people who thought that "separate but equal" laws were a solution to the problem of racism. "What, we gave you your own stuff, what's the big deal? Geez, do we have to keep hearing about how it's not really equal, and the only people who think it is are the people with the better end of things? Can't these people just shut up and leave "us" to "our" society?"

Again, and let's be very clear, I'm not equating "sexism in videogames" with "racism in mid-20th century America." I'm drawing a parallel between the way people thought about problems that affected another group more than themselves, about which they were tired of hearing discussion. The fact that you want to close discussion before any lasting change has been made? That's exactly why discussion needs to be forced to continue.

 

[Guerilla]

...have come under fire for being "sexist", and I can't for the life of me figure out why.

Ah, found the problem.

See, the fact that people like yourself can't "for the life of them" figure out why certain things might be sexist? That's exactly why there is so much discussion about it. It's a real issue, and it really happens. And while there are still so many people who can say, "I don't see what the problem is," there's an obligation to continue pointing out the problem.

Not to equate the two topics, but rather to draw a parallel between the thought process now and an era ago:

There were seriously people who thought that "separate but equal" laws were a solution to the problem of racism. "What, we gave you your own stuff, what's the big deal? Geez, do we have to keep hearing about how it's not really equal, and the only people who think it is are the people with the better end of things? Can't these people just shut up and leave "us" to "our" society?"

Again, and let's be very clear, I'm not equating "sexism in videogames" with "racism in mid-20th century America." I'm drawing a parallel between the way people thought about problems that affected another group more than themselves, about which they were tired of hearing discussion. The fact that you want to close discussion before any lasting change has been made? That's exactly why discussion needs to be forced to continue.

You're "not equating" the two but you really do. Because if you use segregation as an example of how most gamers ignore constant feminist complaining about a female character in a bikini (which is only proof of sexual repression within the feminist community and not an indication of sexism), what you're basically saying is that this problem is as obvious and big as segregation which also some people couldn't see why it's a problem. Which is, oh God, so wrong yet so funny.

 

[Starbird]

I'm going to assume everyone reading this is aware of the so-called "Quinnspiracy" and other events of the last two weeks. The fact that the online community has become a shit-slinging bitching fest can't have escaped many people's notice. Whatever people's views of the behaviour on both sides, I actually want to sidestep all that and talk about games themselves.

Internet feminists' gradual creep into the games industry has surely not gone unnoticed. Now, some people approve of this, others do not: for my intents and purposes it doesn't really matter. What matters is whether or not this is going to start affecting the quality of the games we get in future. It seems to me that no matter how far we come in the depiction of female characters in games, it is never enough. Take The Last Of Us: for my money, this was one of the inclusive, all-round diverse games ever, with female characters oozing with personality and inner-strength. Ellie is perhaps one of the best written characters in any medium ever, regardless of gender.

So I was pretty surprised to find (as were Naughty Dog, apparently) that the game garnered a not-insignificant amount of criticism for being "sexist". This was discussed a lot at the time so I won't go into any more detail, but it seems to me that there are now so many manufactured controversies surrounding women in video games that there is no way to please the feminist camp. Recent games like the new Tomb Raider and Bioshock Infinite have come under fire for being "sexist", and I can't for the life of me figure out why. Such spurious claims do nothing but derail any kind of discussion of gender in games, and must frustrate developers attempts to create a more diverse game by making them either want to give up or try even harder to shoehorn diversity in there for the sake of it.

This raises an important question: should game developers capitulate to feminist demands for a more inclusive range of characters in their games? My immediate answer is a resounding NO. As a person who works in a creative role myself, I value artistic integrity and creative vision far more than any tenuous elements of fairness or inclusivity attached to a work. Creators should feel free to choose the characters that suit the story they want to tell, and not bow to any pressure to have a gender/race/sexuality/etc. quota in their cast list. The same goes for those characters' personalities: there ARE weak women in the world, just as there are strong women, and the same for men. Choosing characters that fit these roles in no way makes a broad statement about a gender as a whole, it's just a dramatic device. Can you imagine William Golding being told he had to include some female characters in Lord Of The Flies? It simply wouldn't work in the context of the story and world he was creating.

And while we might disagree with some creative decisions, ultimately it's the creator's work to do with what he will. Whether that work lives or dies in the court of public opinion is up to us. We can criticise it on its merits, but extrapolating that to making broad statements about the developer's worldview is totally speculative and ultimately fruitless, particularly when they give us more inclusive games and receive just as much, if not more scrutiny.

So what do you guys think? Is there endemic sexism within the game industry and feminists complaints are valid, or is it a storm in a tea cup?


EDIT:

OK, so a lot of people have been jumping the gun somewhat with my use of the term "our hobby". By "our" that I mean all of us, the escapist community. It was not an attempt to depict the debate as "gamers vs. feminists" or anything like that, it was just a throwaway descriptor of what all of us here enjoy doing in our spare time, namely playing games.

Define 'step off'.

I don't agree with a lot of the stuff in Tropes. Some of it was just silly. But...it's a documentary coming from a certain ideological point of view. I don't have to agree with it.

That said, saying 'no, you aren't allowed to express an opinion that someone may disagree with' is just as silly.

So no. The only people that need to step off this are the extremists on both sides, especially the people who are trying to inflict real life harm on others for opinions stated online.

 

[PatrickXD]

From what I've seen nobody is saying whole games are purely sexist - apart from the ones that clearly are. Certainly anyone who is decrying every new title as entirely misogynistic and an attack on women isn't going to be taken too seriously. If you watch Tropes vs. Women in Videogames, the general idea is that there are these tropes, that are inherently sexist, and they show up in viedoegames a lot. They show up in other mediums too, but that doesn't make them okay to be in videogames. Not every use of a generally sexist trope is sexist, but the repeated use of tropes across the gaming industry indicates, at least, boring story telling and predictable character arcs. In short there is nothing artistic or creative about using tropes.

My only problem with the whole feminist thing is that it's so 'female victims' orientated that it gives itself an easy out for anyone who attempts to debate. Most of these tropes are damaging to men and women, simply by forcing them into rigid and opposing roles. So to my mind humanity is misrepresented, and nobody is a victim because it doesn't define how we act in real life. Again, this is all just misrepresentation of how people genuinely act and feel.

Of course game developers are not required to challenge culture and push the boundaries of representation. To my mind the publishers of videogames should not be the direct target of any push for wider representation. Target the consumer, convince the consumer to seek out genuine representation in videogames, to watch out for protagonists who aren't the artistic dead ends of comfortably handsome straight white males. I think the avenue for this would be to identify how the depth of story changes when you are in fact culturally challenged by a more accurate representation of humanity.

Of course, if this turns out to be right, then that's where the money goes, and that's where publishers will push developers, and we'll end up with a natural diversity of characters. Everybody wins.

If that's not what happens, and it turns out that characters are culturally interchangeable and nobody actually gives a toss when it comes down to playing videogames, that won't happen. In this situation, everybody still wins as long as they can recognise themselves as claiming a slice of the pie in the publishers eye worthy of the money they can contribute to future development of games. This actually speaks to your use of the term 'our hobby'. Gaming 'belongs' to people of every different gender, creed, colour and culture.

To surmise this entire post, culture cannot be created by quota's.

 

[Maximum Bert]

I dont believe in politicising a creative medium no matter what it is so in that respect they should back the hell off. If someone wants to politicise their game or be politically correct (lol) then they should be able to if someone dosent want to then they should be able to.

Let the people who design games do what they want with them whether it goes to or against what you like putting restrictions on creativity no matter how apparently slight is a bad idea period.

So when did someone ever talk about putting restrictions on games? Seriously, this is the biggest common mistake I see in the anti-feminist camp. We've never wanted to restrict, forbid or deny anything. What we want is for gamer developers to put some extra effort into their representation of women in their games. We are quite literally asking the developers to make games we would like to play.

Essentially, what we are doing is asking developers to include or remove features in their games. Just like the people who wanted bunny hopping out of CS, the people who wanted ships in Wargame, the people who wanted more customization options in the sims etc.. How come "We want to see more women in your stories?" is more controversial than "I want you to include prestige class x in the next D&D RPG?" or "I want to see Captain America in the next Capcom vs Marvel?"

Yes trying to force people to include or remove features is a restriction saying women should be this and that and not this and that in a game is a restriction. You seem to be adopting a confrontational stance I am not against people voicing their opinions or having interesting characters that dont offend peoples current sensibilities but many are trying to make this a movement its pretty tiny still sure and unlikely to amount to much as luckily many dont care and just enjoy the games they want and ignore the ones they dont because thankfully we have variety. Variety is good free choice to decide exactly how your game is will play what the characters will be etc is good. Of course games will never be free of total restrictions especially in large AAA style budgets where money and publishers guesstimates based on charts can play a large dictatorial role in what a game becomes but still we should strive for as little restrictions as possible.

Does all criticism totally stifle creativity? Or is it when it's about something you don't agree with? Should games be criticized at all? What about games that use racial stereotypes? Are blatantly homophobic? Depict all white males as sexist and racist hicks? Is there a line should be drawn or is everything open? What about godawful writing, that talks down to you like you were ten years old or an ending that fails to tie up any plot points? Those are creative endeavors, but now I can't tell them they suck?

This isn't about politics. This is about criticism. This is obviously criticism you don't agree with -whether a female character is well written, or the attitudes shown by a developer to a gender or race are, at the least, misguided- but it has it's place right along with the complaints about the Mass Effect 3 ending and how Bioshock Infinite felt more like a theme park and less like an actual interactive environment. I want a better story, with better protagonists, and better NPCs. Even more, I want to see more gamers of different races, age groups, and of both genders feel included and welcome to my hobby. A game that get's played with my loved ones and friends is one I can share, discuss, or even play multiplayer with. Those games I tend to replay and enjoy so much more than ones I've only played until I beat it, and then left it behind forever. So I tend to ask more from the developers, to write and design with a more inclusive (not exclusive) mindset. Don't just pander to 15-22 male demographic, because, I am not a teenage boy and I still love to game. I can appreciate tits in my face like the next heteromale, but I can appreciate a game both my wife and I enjoy playing more.

Criticism is not inherently a bad thing and can be very good but your kidding yourself if you dont think this is politicised the whole issue reeks of politics games should be free to depict women how they want and write them how they want and not just women every character want to make your characters a racial stereotype sure thats your choice, all the white males as sexist racist homophobic hicks go ahead have the women as nothing more than 2 dimensional sex objects ok fine if thats what they decide then I am free to like it or not and voice my views maybe I dont like the idea that all the bears are riding trikes and dressed in tuxedos but really beyond saying I dont like it and explaining my reasons there really is no discussion I certainly wouldnt want to stop them making games like that if thats what they wanted its just they would not be games for me.

So in short criticism is fine and good and healthy well not all criticism but saying you cant criticise is as bad as saying your game needs to be this and that I believe in allowing as much freedom as possible nothing should be off grounds in a creative medium and I do mean nothing even if I would personally find some or a lot of it sick and appalling.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Yes trying to force people to include or remove features is a restriction saying women should be this and that and not this and that in a game is a restriction. You seem to be adopting a confrontational stance I am not against people voicing their opinions or having interesting characters that dont offend peoples current sensibilities but many are trying to make this a movement its pretty tiny still sure and unlikely to amount to much as luckily many dont care and just enjoy the games they want and ignore the ones they dont because thankfully we have variety. Variety is good free choice to decide exactly how your game is will play what the characters will be etc is good. Of course games will never be free of total restrictions especially in large AAA style budgets where money and publishers guesstimates based on charts can play a large dictatorial role in what a game becomes but still we should strive for as little restrictions as possible.

So then you agree with the idea that gamers shouldn't be putting forth ideas to developers about which features they want added, removed or modified in the games that developer is making? Because that is exactly the idea that you are arguing in favor of right now, that we shouldn't be asking for more weapons in the new CoD, we shouldn't be complaining about the removal of the large multiplayer games from Madden 15 or asking for more skins in League of Legends. Asking for better representation of women is no different from any of the other suggestions that gamers and consumers of games give all the time on various message boards, in discussions or in e-mails to developers.

Some people on the internet asking game developers to consider how they write and include female characters in games is not anywhere near restrictions. It is somewhere between criticism and discourse and both are perfectly normal.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Well, first of, dont. The "consensus" can go suck it and die in a fire. Your own opinion is ALL that matters . And yes

I find the "I never listen to critics, I listen to my OWN opinion" school of thought to be exceptionally boring and stupid. I don't let critics watch the movies or play the games FOR me, but I sure as hell listen to what other people have to say about something before dropping money on it. Critical review has pointed me towards some of my favorite films, novels and games of all time. Things I might never have touched had I not first read a glowing recommendation, or had a friend point me towards them. I don't require consensus approval to enjoy something, that would be inane. But if a movie is getting 20% on Rotten Tomatoes or something I'd have to REALLY want to see it badly to give it a look. And inevitably it ends up being shit, and I end up wishing I'd heeded the warning.

On the rest I believe you are exaggerating by a lot. 1%? Nope

Oh good, "nope". There's that argument scuttled then. What spectacular argumentative form.

"I propose X".
"Nope!"
"Well alright then."

And the problem with that comparison is, that it is subjective.

And? This is a discussion of character quality in video games and other medium. Did you expect it to be entirely objective? What metric would we employ to determine quality? If you're uncomfortable with subjectivity I suggest you stay far away from conversations like this one.

If you or I really want, we can make even the greatest artistic visions of all time look moronic and stupid. Its quite simple to do.

A) Why would I want to do that?
B) I suppose you could, but it would make you look like a clown.

Besides, that is like comparing PC parts on their subjective position and not their price

I'm glad you employed the "Sarcasm" emoticon at the end of this sentence because to be honest I have absolutely no idea what this sentence is supposed to mean. It would appear that you are trying to use PC components as some kind of metaphor for artistic expression, which would be baffling to the extreme.

PS - Just realized this is the "Feminists Step Off" thread again, so we're derailing, there's actually a thread going about just this topic if you want to move it there.

PPS - And since this is a contentious and bitchy thread, it bears mentioning that when I say a "school of thought" is "boring and stupid", I mean exactly that. I mean the argument itself is boring and stupid, not that you are boring and stupid. I'm sure you're a lovely chap.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

So then you agree with the idea that gamers shouldn't be putting forth ideas to developers about which features they want added, removed or modified in the games that developer is making? Because that is exactly the idea that you are arguing in favor of right now, that we shouldn't be asking for more weapons in the new CoD, we shouldn't be complaining about the removal of the large multiplayer games from Madden 15 or asking for more skins in League of Legends. Asking for better representation of women is no different from any of the other suggestions that gamers and consumers of games give all the time on various message boards, in discussions or in e-mails to developers.

Some people on the internet asking game developers to consider how they write and include female characters in games is not anywhere near restrictions. It is somewhere between criticism and discourse and both are perfectly normal.

Actually, during the ME3 debacle, one of the rebuttals floated was "auteur theory", that a game represents the sacrosanct vision of its creator and mustn't come into contact with anything as banal as community opinion lest it be destroyed. So campaigning for something like new skins in League of Legends would be "disrupting the auteur".

Notably, some of the same people also screamed bloody murder about the proposed "easier" Dark Souls 2 because the original game was hard and opaque, and why can't there be games made specifically for them any more? Why can't their niche be catered to? There are plenty of games for mainstream casuals to enjoy.

 

[Starbird]

There is a big difference between ME3 fans or DS fans going nutso because the game doesn't cater specifically to them and people asking ideological questions about games in general .

 

[Chester Rabbit]

Okay this is just going to be a one note mic drop post for this topic and all the drama going around right now.

But maybe it's time you all "step off". Just leave, take a break. This is all ridiculously out of hand. Look at all this! Look at what this place is becoming. No one is enjoying anything anymore it's just shit fits over nothing and repeating the same arguments again and again and getting nowhere.

And now this latest drama? Corruption in "games journalism"? Oh. My.God! That's like taking play ground politics seriously.

 

[Grace_Omega]

Internet feminists' gradual creep into the games industry

"Internet feminists" for the most part are not actually part of the industry itself, nor do they have anything but the most tertiary level of influence on it.

What matters is whether or not this is going to start affecting the quality of the games we get in future.

Answer: no.

So I was pretty surprised to find (as were Naughty Dog, apparently) that the game garnered a not-insignificant amount of criticism for being "sexist". This was discussed a lot at the time so I won't go into any more detail, but it seems to me that there are now so many manufactured controversies surrounding women in video games that there is no way to please the feminist camp. Recent games like the new Tomb Raider and Bioshock Infinite have come under fire for being "sexist", and I can't for the life of me figure out why.

Have you tried actually listening to what the feminists are saying? Your use of the phrase "manufactured controversy" is quite telling and seems to imply that you're assuming these arguments are being made in bad faith.

One reason that you can't please "the feminist camp" is because there is no "feminist camp". People are not a hive mind and feminists (and other critics, journalists and writers) will often disagree. For example, I don't personally believe that Ellie's portrayal in The Last of Us is in any way problematic or sexist, particularly after Left Behind, but others may disagree. That doesn't mean that Us Feminists Are Impossible To Please, it means different people have different opinions. If you're holding out hope for a game that is universally given the Feminist Seal of Approval you're going to be perpetually disappointed, just as someone hoping for a game that gets a universal 10/10 review from every reviewer.

Such spurious claims do nothing but derail any kind of discussion of gender in games,

If the discussion of gender in games isn't focusing on portrayals of gender in games, then what is it going to consist of?

This raises an important question: should game developers capitulate to feminist demands for a more inclusive range of characters in their games? My immediate answer is a resounding NO. As a person who works in a creative role myself, I value artistic integrity and creative vision far more than any tenuous elements of fairness or inclusivity attached to a work.

You're assuming that portrayals of gender/race/sexuality in games (or any other medium) are driven solely by sound artistic decisions. Sometimes they are, but for the most part writers are just thoughtlessly regurgitating cliches and prejudices. No one wants some sort of quota system whereby developers feel like they have to be more diverse just for brownie points; instead we want writers and developers to think about what they're writing and what hurtful or stereotypical portrayals they're contributing to.

The same goes for those characters' personalities: there ARE weak women in the world, just as there are strong women, and the same for men. Choosing characters that fit these roles in no way makes a broad statement about a gender as a whole, it's just a dramatic device.

No *one example* of a weak woman makes a broad statement about gender as a whole; but when the culture is clogged with such portrayals over and over and over again, those single examples cease to be single examples and instead become links in a chain. Works of art (no matter how commercial) don't spring forth from a vacuum; the reflect the larger culture that spawns them, and they have to be evaluated both in terms of how they reflect that culture and how they contribute to it. Every other creative medium is subject to this process, and games should be no different.