Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?

PatrickXD

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From what I've seen nobody is saying whole games are purely sexist - apart from the ones that clearly are. Certainly anyone who is decrying every new title as entirely misogynistic and an attack on women isn't going to be taken too seriously. If you watch Tropes vs. Women in Videogames, the general idea is that there are these tropes, that are inherently sexist, and they show up in viedoegames a lot. They show up in other mediums too, but that doesn't make them okay to be in videogames. Not every use of a generally sexist trope is sexist, but the repeated use of tropes across the gaming industry indicates, at least, boring story telling and predictable character arcs. In short there is nothing artistic or creative about using tropes.

My only problem with the whole feminist thing is that it's so 'female victims' orientated that it gives itself an easy out for anyone who attempts to debate. Most of these tropes are damaging to men and women, simply by forcing them into rigid and opposing roles. So to my mind humanity is misrepresented, and nobody is a victim because it doesn't define how we act in real life. Again, this is all just misrepresentation of how people genuinely act and feel.

Of course game developers are not required to challenge culture and push the boundaries of representation. To my mind the publishers of videogames should not be the direct target of any push for wider representation. Target the consumer, convince the consumer to seek out genuine representation in videogames, to watch out for protagonists who aren't the artistic dead ends of comfortably handsome straight white males. I think the avenue for this would be to identify how the depth of story changes when you are in fact culturally challenged by a more accurate representation of humanity.

Of course, if this turns out to be right, then that's where the money goes, and that's where publishers will push developers, and we'll end up with a natural diversity of characters. Everybody wins.

If that's not what happens, and it turns out that characters are culturally interchangeable and nobody actually gives a toss when it comes down to playing videogames, that won't happen. In this situation, everybody still wins as long as they can recognise themselves as claiming a slice of the pie in the publishers eye worthy of the money they can contribute to future development of games. This actually speaks to your use of the term 'our hobby'. Gaming 'belongs' to people of every different gender, creed, colour and culture.

To surmise this entire post, culture cannot be created by quota's.
 

Maximum Bert

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Gethsemani said:
Maximum Bert said:
I dont believe in politicising a creative medium no matter what it is so in that respect they should back the hell off. If someone wants to politicise their game or be politically correct (lol) then they should be able to if someone dosent want to then they should be able to.

Let the people who design games do what they want with them whether it goes to or against what you like putting restrictions on creativity no matter how apparently slight is a bad idea period.
So when did someone ever talk about putting restrictions on games? Seriously, this is the biggest common mistake I see in the anti-feminist camp. We've never wanted to restrict, forbid or deny anything. What we want is for gamer developers to put some extra effort into their representation of women in their games. We are quite literally asking the developers to make games we would like to play.

Essentially, what we are doing is asking developers to include or remove features in their games. Just like the people who wanted bunny hopping out of CS, the people who wanted ships in Wargame, the people who wanted more customization options in the sims etc.. How come "We want to see more women in your stories?" is more controversial than "I want you to include prestige class x in the next D&D RPG?" or "I want to see Captain America in the next Capcom vs Marvel?"
Yes trying to force people to include or remove features is a restriction saying women should be this and that and not this and that in a game is a restriction. You seem to be adopting a confrontational stance I am not against people voicing their opinions or having interesting characters that dont offend peoples current sensibilities but many are trying to make this a movement its pretty tiny still sure and unlikely to amount to much as luckily many dont care and just enjoy the games they want and ignore the ones they dont because thankfully we have variety. Variety is good free choice to decide exactly how your game is will play what the characters will be etc is good. Of course games will never be free of total restrictions especially in large AAA style budgets where money and publishers guesstimates based on charts can play a large dictatorial role in what a game becomes but still we should strive for as little restrictions as possible.

tyriless said:
Does all criticism totally stifle creativity? Or is it when it's about something you don't agree with? Should games be criticized at all? What about games that use racial stereotypes? Are blatantly homophobic? Depict all white males as sexist and racist hicks? Is there a line should be drawn or is everything open? What about godawful writing, that talks down to you like you were ten years old or an ending that fails to tie up any plot points? Those are creative endeavors, but now I can't tell them they suck?

This isn't about politics. This is about criticism. This is obviously criticism you don't agree with -whether a female character is well written, or the attitudes shown by a developer to a gender or race are, at the least, misguided- but it has it's place right along with the complaints about the Mass Effect 3 ending and how Bioshock Infinite felt more like a theme park and less like an actual interactive environment. I want a better story, with better protagonists, and better NPCs. Even more, I want to see more gamers of different races, age groups, and of both genders feel included and welcome to my hobby. A game that get's played with my loved ones and friends is one I can share, discuss, or even play multiplayer with. Those games I tend to replay and enjoy so much more than ones I've only played until I beat it, and then left it behind forever. So I tend to ask more from the developers, to write and design with a more inclusive (not exclusive) mindset. Don't just pander to 15-22 male demographic, because, I am not a teenage boy and I still love to game. I can appreciate tits in my face like the next heteromale, but I can appreciate a game both my wife and I enjoy playing more.
Criticism is not inherently a bad thing and can be very good but your kidding yourself if you dont think this is politicised the whole issue reeks of politics games should be free to depict women how they want and write them how they want and not just women every character want to make your characters a racial stereotype sure thats your choice, all the white males as sexist racist homophobic hicks go ahead have the women as nothing more than 2 dimensional sex objects ok fine if thats what they decide then I am free to like it or not and voice my views maybe I dont like the idea that all the bears are riding trikes and dressed in tuxedos but really beyond saying I dont like it and explaining my reasons there really is no discussion I certainly wouldnt want to stop them making games like that if thats what they wanted its just they would not be games for me.

So in short criticism is fine and good and healthy well not all criticism but saying you cant criticise is as bad as saying your game needs to be this and that I believe in allowing as much freedom as possible nothing should be off grounds in a creative medium and I do mean nothing even if I would personally find some or a lot of it sick and appalling.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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Maximum Bert said:
Yes trying to force people to include or remove features is a restriction saying women should be this and that and not this and that in a game is a restriction. You seem to be adopting a confrontational stance I am not against people voicing their opinions or having interesting characters that dont offend peoples current sensibilities but many are trying to make this a movement its pretty tiny still sure and unlikely to amount to much as luckily many dont care and just enjoy the games they want and ignore the ones they dont because thankfully we have variety. Variety is good free choice to decide exactly how your game is will play what the characters will be etc is good. Of course games will never be free of total restrictions especially in large AAA style budgets where money and publishers guesstimates based on charts can play a large dictatorial role in what a game becomes but still we should strive for as little restrictions as possible.
So then you agree with the idea that gamers shouldn't be putting forth ideas to developers about which features they want added, removed or modified in the games that developer is making? Because that is exactly the idea that you are arguing in favor of right now, that we shouldn't be asking for more weapons in the new CoD, we shouldn't be complaining about the removal of the large multiplayer games from Madden 15 or asking for more skins in League of Legends. Asking for better representation of women is no different from any of the other suggestions that gamers and consumers of games give all the time on various message boards, in discussions or in e-mails to developers.

Some people on the internet asking game developers to consider how they write and include female characters in games is not anywhere near restrictions. It is somewhere between criticism and discourse and both are perfectly normal.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Charcharo said:
Well, first of, dont. The "consensus" can go suck it and die in a fire. Your own opinion is ALL that matters :p . And yes
I find the "I never listen to critics, I listen to my OWN opinion" school of thought to be exceptionally boring and stupid. I don't let critics watch the movies or play the games FOR me, but I sure as hell listen to what other people have to say about something before dropping money on it. Critical review has pointed me towards some of my favorite films, novels and games of all time. Things I might never have touched had I not first read a glowing recommendation, or had a friend point me towards them. I don't require consensus approval to enjoy something, that would be inane. But if a movie is getting 20% on Rotten Tomatoes or something I'd have to REALLY want to see it badly to give it a look. And inevitably it ends up being shit, and I end up wishing I'd heeded the warning.

Charcharo said:
On the rest I believe you are exaggerating by a lot. 1%? Nope :p
Oh good, "nope". There's that argument scuttled then. What spectacular argumentative form.

"I propose X".
"Nope!"
"Well alright then."

Charcharo said:
And the problem with that comparison is, that it is subjective.
And? This is a discussion of character quality in video games and other medium. Did you expect it to be entirely objective? What metric would we employ to determine quality? If you're uncomfortable with subjectivity I suggest you stay far away from conversations like this one.

Charcharo said:
If you or I really want, we can make even the greatest artistic visions of all time look moronic and stupid. Its quite simple to do.
A) Why would I want to do that?
B) I suppose you could, but it would make you look like a clown.

Charcharo said:
Besides, that is like comparing PC parts on their subjective position and not their price :p
I'm glad you employed the "Sarcasm" emoticon at the end of this sentence because to be honest I have absolutely no idea what this sentence is supposed to mean. It would appear that you are trying to use PC components as some kind of metaphor for artistic expression, which would be baffling to the extreme.

PS - Just realized this is the "Feminists Step Off" thread again, so we're derailing, there's actually a thread going about just this topic if you want to move it there.

PPS - And since this is a contentious and bitchy thread, it bears mentioning that when I say a "school of thought" is "boring and stupid", I mean exactly that. I mean the argument itself is boring and stupid, not that you are boring and stupid. I'm sure you're a lovely chap.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Gethsemani said:
So then you agree with the idea that gamers shouldn't be putting forth ideas to developers about which features they want added, removed or modified in the games that developer is making? Because that is exactly the idea that you are arguing in favor of right now, that we shouldn't be asking for more weapons in the new CoD, we shouldn't be complaining about the removal of the large multiplayer games from Madden 15 or asking for more skins in League of Legends. Asking for better representation of women is no different from any of the other suggestions that gamers and consumers of games give all the time on various message boards, in discussions or in e-mails to developers.

Some people on the internet asking game developers to consider how they write and include female characters in games is not anywhere near restrictions. It is somewhere between criticism and discourse and both are perfectly normal.
Actually, during the ME3 debacle, one of the rebuttals floated was "auteur theory", that a game represents the sacrosanct vision of its creator and mustn't come into contact with anything as banal as community opinion lest it be destroyed. So campaigning for something like new skins in League of Legends would be "disrupting the auteur".

Notably, some of the same people also screamed bloody murder about the proposed "easier" Dark Souls 2 because the original game was hard and opaque, and why can't there be games made specifically for them any more? Why can't their niche be catered to? There are plenty of games for mainstream casuals to enjoy.
 

Starbird

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There is a big difference between ME3 fans or DS fans going nutso because the game doesn't cater specifically to them and people asking ideological questions about games in general :).
 

Chester Rabbit

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Okay this is just going to be a one note mic drop post for this topic and all the drama going around right now.

But maybe it's time you all "step off". Just leave, take a break. This is all ridiculously out of hand. Look at all this! Look at what this place is becoming. No one is enjoying anything anymore it's just shit fits over nothing and repeating the same arguments again and again and getting nowhere.

And now this latest drama? Corruption in "games journalism"? Oh. My.God! That's like taking play ground politics seriously.
 

Grace_Omega

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Mandalore_15 said:
Internet feminists' gradual creep into the games industry
"Internet feminists" for the most part are not actually part of the industry itself, nor do they have anything but the most tertiary level of influence on it.

What matters is whether or not this is going to start affecting the quality of the games we get in future.
Answer: no.

So I was pretty surprised to find (as were Naughty Dog, apparently) that the game garnered a not-insignificant amount of criticism for being "sexist". This was discussed a lot at the time so I won't go into any more detail, but it seems to me that there are now so many manufactured controversies surrounding women in video games that there is no way to please the feminist camp. Recent games like the new Tomb Raider and Bioshock Infinite have come under fire for being "sexist", and I can't for the life of me figure out why.
Have you tried actually listening to what the feminists are saying? Your use of the phrase "manufactured controversy" is quite telling and seems to imply that you're assuming these arguments are being made in bad faith.

One reason that you can't please "the feminist camp" is because there is no "feminist camp". People are not a hive mind and feminists (and other critics, journalists and writers) will often disagree. For example, I don't personally believe that Ellie's portrayal in The Last of Us is in any way problematic or sexist, particularly after Left Behind, but others may disagree. That doesn't mean that Us Feminists Are Impossible To Please, it means different people have different opinions. If you're holding out hope for a game that is universally given the Feminist Seal of Approval you're going to be perpetually disappointed, just as someone hoping for a game that gets a universal 10/10 review from every reviewer.

Such spurious claims do nothing but derail any kind of discussion of gender in games,
If the discussion of gender in games isn't focusing on portrayals of gender in games, then what is it going to consist of?

This raises an important question: should game developers capitulate to feminist demands for a more inclusive range of characters in their games? My immediate answer is a resounding NO. As a person who works in a creative role myself, I value artistic integrity and creative vision far more than any tenuous elements of fairness or inclusivity attached to a work.
You're assuming that portrayals of gender/race/sexuality in games (or any other medium) are driven solely by sound artistic decisions. Sometimes they are, but for the most part writers are just thoughtlessly regurgitating cliches and prejudices. No one wants some sort of quota system whereby developers feel like they have to be more diverse just for brownie points; instead we want writers and developers to think about what they're writing and what hurtful or stereotypical portrayals they're contributing to.

The same goes for those characters' personalities: there ARE weak women in the world, just as there are strong women, and the same for men. Choosing characters that fit these roles in no way makes a broad statement about a gender as a whole, it's just a dramatic device.
No *one example* of a weak woman makes a broad statement about gender as a whole; but when the culture is clogged with such portrayals over and over and over again, those single examples cease to be single examples and instead become links in a chain. Works of art (no matter how commercial) don't spring forth from a vacuum; the reflect the larger culture that spawns them, and they have to be evaluated both in terms of how they reflect that culture and how they contribute to it. Every other creative medium is subject to this process, and games should be no different.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Charcharo said:
And that is fine :) . Seems like you are quite lucky and maybe many critics share your tastes.

I have tried listening to critics. It was 50/50. I got f*cked over more then a few times.

Most of my favourite media were not by reviews. A fair part of my greatest disappointments... were due to reviews.

An example I can give is Bioshock Infinite. I read and watched quite the number of reviews before buying it. Almost all were critical acclaim and general concensus by the gaming community was VERY positive (on release).

That was the worst purchase I did last year. Mediocre game in almost all areas bar graphics/sound, art style and maybe ambition. If I were to give it a score, it would be a 6/10 at most.

And opposite of that we have STALKER Clear Sky. A game with 75/100 on metacritic, quite a bit lower then what Infinite has... and damn, that is one of the finest games I have had the pleasure of playing.

So it seems like 2 different experiences here. For you, it seems like most of the time, reviews are helpful and somewhat correspond to your tastes. For me, most of the time they are useless.

Cant comment on movies and books though. I dont really frequent IMDB or Rotten Tomatoes. I just watch what my family recommends, what my friends recommend and what sounds interesting. I do get stung, true, but I am not exactly an expert there anyway.
Your quoting screwed up...I'm going to try to reply to this the best I can but it's a bit of a mess to parse stuff out of.

"Rotten Tomatoes" is not a critic, it's just a critical consensus. Like Metacritic, but with less "weighting". You can disagree with an individual critic, no two people have exactly the same tastes. Critical consensus though...it's pretty rare that the vast majority of critics despise something and it turns out excellent. I won't say it's impossible, I'll just go ahead and say I've yet to see it. Games criticism is a little different...we're in an awkward situation where the people who are criticizing the medium have their salaries paid for by advertising BY the medium. I'm not going to come right out and say it affects the scores directly, but I'm uh...going to imply it.

That said, I adored Bioshock Infinite. Yeah it was a bit rubbish as a shooter, but I played it more as a story-driven adventure game with shooty bits than as a shooter. People want different things from games. I would expect someone who prizes mechanics above all other things to, say, read a 9/10 review of Gone Home very carefully to determine whether or not the things the reviewer is praising are things they personally enjoy. I think critically about the things I read about a film or game or book before buying it. I don't just say "90% wow! Day one purchase!". I consider the source, I read what they have to say, I check out user reviews, etc, etc, etc. Frankly the process I use for vetting things before buying them is getting somewhat laborious.

Charcharo said:
With books, I dont even know where to find review scores. I read on gut there. Same way I do my VG purchases now. It works quite well IMHO :)
I've been audiobook only for a while due to an eye problem. If I hear of a new book I want, I first scour audible for user reviews, both of the book and the narration, and then I usually check Amazon as well. I typically read a few of the 5/5 reviews as well as the 1/5 to see what people hated, in case it's something that also sets me off.

Charcharo said:
...overexaggerating...
Just "exaggerating" is fine. The "over" is redundant.

Charcharo said:
How do I even prove that? How do you prove the opposite :( ?
It's not that you PROVE it. You ESTABLISH an argument. You don't think The Last of Us is in rare company for the quality of video gaming narratives? Go to Wikipedia and look up all the other games released in its year. You can even go back 1-5 years. Count up all the games you think are competitive in terms of story and character. Now work out the total games released and get back to me as to just how many "strong" story/character games are actually out there. I'm willing to bet it's somewhere in the area of 1-5%, and I'm being EXTREMELY charitable at 5%.

Charcharo said:
To be fair I dont know either. I am not exactly sober today.
Heh. Okay, fair enough. =)

Charcharo said:
BTW, we seem to be improving the thread...
Alas, that is a low bar to clear.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Charcharo said:
Metro Last Light was MUCH better.
Got as far as the swamp area and just got fed up with it. Beautiful environmental graphics, but the game play left me wanting, and like the previous Metro the storytelling just felt a bit drab. I was completely without investment.

Gorgeous game though.

Charcharo said:
And I do suggest you play STALKER mate!
Already have done. Pripyat was an amazing game. Very tonally different from something like Bioshock though. Far better mechanically, but the storytelling in the STALKER games is uh...how to put it...absent.

Charcharo said:
I havent played many character dependand games in the last 5 years. As for competitive for story at least... well, there are a few. Some even better then TLOU too.
I've played a lot of them. I consider TLOU to be a game that shares a kind of sub-genre with other story-heavy, gameplay-light offerings like The Walking Dead, Bioshock Infinite, To the Moon, etc. And I consider it to rank near the bottom of that company, although I consider all those games worth playing for their story alone.

And there are a few, yes. A very select few. Of the 100-200 games released each year, a tiny fraction even HAVE stories, let alone good ones.

Charcharo said:
BTW where is the thread you were talking about mate? Maybe it got deleted when you cleaned up my quoting :(
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.859811-Im-getting-sick-of-the-Characters-and-story-in-gaming-is-lesser-than-other-mediums-argument
 

BloatedGuppy

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Charcharo said:
See, the complete opposite. So it is subjective. I LOVED Metro's gameplay. It was one of the game's strong points, and damn was it strong for me. Same goes for storyline. That is a game I completed in 12 hours... without stop...
Is it seriously only 12 hours long? Booooo.

Charcharo said:
And again a small disagreement here. STALKER (well, except CoP) has a pretty damn interesting and good storyline. Problem is it does not get it across well.
No, it really doesn't. The story presentation bordered on laughable. Which is unfortunate, because otherwise the game was superb in nearly every aspect.

Charcharo said:
Also, another problem I guess, is that many or should I say the vast majority of its elements are woven into the environment or dialogue or level design.
Yes, STALKER, like Dark Souls, does indirect storytelling very well. Of course, so does Bioshock, the latter game just supplements it with traditional storytelling as well.

Charcharo said:
The vast majority of movies, books and shows each year are... well, rehashes, cheap knock offs or reused other books and movies. That counts for little with me, most are straight up garbage, worse then CoD's storyline :p
People like to hold up COD as the nadir of gaming storytelling because it's hot garbage, but in reality that hot garbage has more attention to narrative and character than the majority of games. Again, a great many games don't even HAVE stories to shit on, let alone bad ones. COD represents the cream of gaming storytelling. As I say this having nothing but seething disdain for COD and the way it tells a story.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Charcharo said:
Steam says I played 110 hours of it. It is correct :O...
The way Steam counts play time occasionally gets screwed up. Steam tells me I have played 247 hours of Bastion, a 10 hour game I played through exactly once.

Charcharo said:
If only Bioshock had half the gameplay, atmosphere, ambition and technology as STALKER... or System Shock 1... and 2.
It's just as ambitious. It's just ambitious in narrative, not in game play. Atmosphere is on par, just different. Tech is arguably better.

System Shock...the original game was WILDLY before its time. No one makes games like that any more. Not since EA devoured Origin and shat out its bones.

Good. You receive a point in my book for this reply.

Charcharo said:
Truth is, most people dont give it ANY credit at all... which is unfair, a lot of work goes into the games.

CoD represents a fairly decent storyline in gaming for me. And would be so even as a movie or TV show... or book.
If only it did not hold your hand as much...
COD is Michael Bay. It is what it is. It knows its audience, and panders to them directly. The only issue here is that Michael Bay films are considered amongst some of the worst in modern cinema, and CoD is arguably one of the better told set of stories in video gaming. And there's your gulf between the mediums. Our best is often barely on par with their worst.
 

Something Amyss

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BloatedGuppy said:
The way Steam counts play time occasionally gets screwed up. Steam tells me I have played 247 hours of Bastion, a 10 hour game I played through exactly once.
Hell, I've got games I've played for dozens of hours with zero time played on Steam, and I have one game with thousands of hours played that are undeserved. Two, technically, but one's probably closer to accurate.
 

Sleix

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Feminism has been so grossly warped by a few individuals and definetly the media lately. No I'm not an SJW, no I'm not a feminist, the argument isn't oh so black and white. If people want to follow these people that so callously call themselves feminists, that's cool by me, and if people want to generalize an entire community, go ahead. I just play video games, I honestly couldn't give seven shades of shit about this, and neither should you.