Is punishing a kid consider abuse?

[Helmholtz Watson]

What do you mean with punishing a kid?

Is that included/exclude hitting a child? cause I would see that as abuse.

spanking is abuse? Really?

Yeah... You're hitting somebody...

...strongly disagree. It isn't abuse, nobody is beating anybody else

"It isn't abuse, nobody is beating anybody else" Can you clarify that?

But may I ask how is it not abuse since you are hitting a person.

Hitting a person =/= automatically abusing someone. When spanking is done as punishment, it is different from a parent hitting a child in the face with a closed fist.

It's still hitting somebody and I personally think its pathetic since you're venting your anger at somebody that is defenseless.
Do you also think people should be able to "spank" a grown up person as punishment for misbehaving?

I wouldn't spank a child out of anger, I would do it if I felt it would be effective in disciplining the child.

As for an adult, imo I don't think it would have the same effect if I did that.....and some people like being spanked >_<

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

When spanking is done as punishment, it is different from a parent hitting a child in the face with a closed fist.

Whipping isn't the same as punching either, but it's still abuse. Spanking being different from punching does not mean it isn't also a form of abuse.

..really?

Spoiler: your going to compare this

..to spanking a child? Get serious

 

[MrTub]

It's still hitting somebody and I personally think its pathetic since you're venting your anger at somebody that is defenseless.

Well, you can vent your anger at somebody who's defenseless by saying "Firstname Lastname, YOU'RRRRE GRRRROUNDED! Now go to your room!" Is that abuse to, because of the "venting at a defenseless one" clause?

What I'm saying here is that if it's about venting one's anger, it's not punishment at all, since it has no educational value.

Now, let me propose a scenario.

There was a kid who was caught smoking by the parents once. They made him sit down and told him to smoke the entire pack right there, in front of them, and he can't leave until then. He at first went "Pfsh, no problem!" but after 4-5 in a row, he changed his mind and decided that smoking can fuck him up pretty badly and ruining his health in order to be rebellious and stick it to the man wasn't worth it. Oh, and he didn't actually have to smoke the whole pack after he got to that point.

Now, is this abuse? As punishment, it was pretty damn effective.

I know said kid (well, he's not kid anymore). Was one of the most shocking things that happened to him, but he also admits that he'd likely not have seen the point if the parents tried to just reason with him, or if they just dealt some arbitrary punishment such as grounding.

I do not know if that is abuse, but I would have to guess so since it inflicts physical harm. And if my parents did that to me they would most likely be charged with something since I would have a very very hard time to breath.


But if you are for spanking of children, for to teach them their place, are you also for spanking/smacking a grown person so they know their place/learn how to behave?

There is a reason we treat children and adults separately. An adult can listen to reason (most of the time) I child usually won't.

Have you got any proof for that since I personally find that many adult people do not listen to reason, and if children do not listen to reason then how come parents have successfully parented kids in my country(Sweden) since all hitting is considered abuse?

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

Depends on what form the punishment takes. Denying them things like they like, shouting at them, even reasoning with oldr children to explain why they did wrong and why you must do something to them.

But if you hit your child, fuck you.

This is a point I have spent some time debating on and arguing in the past, I have come to conclusions like 'If you say you were hit and it did you no harm, then why do you think hitting children is okay? You clearly were harmed because that behaviour is abhorrent.' I quoted studies that show it leads to stress, depression, low intelligence, greater incidences of crime and violence in later life. I debated on the morality of striking another human being at all, whatever the reason.

In the end I reached the conclusion that those unfortunate enough to have been raised in a familial culture of violence will never give up violence, no matter how strong the argument. So instead I have but one thing to say to them now.

If you think hitting a defenceless, innocent child, weaker and smaller then yourself is okay, you are wrong. If you think that teaching a child that when you are bigger and stronger it is okay to hit people who do things you don't like will teach them anything more than that violence solves their problems you are clearly suffering from the low IQ problem mentioned in the study. And if you make the outrageous claim that you support hitting children because you yourself were hit as a child and have noticed no problems then I have news. If you consider hitting a child okay you have a problem.

And not that I think anyone involved in this debate is remotely interested in actual science as opposed to generalising based on their own experiences, but:
http://www.livescience.com/7895-children-spanked-iqs.html

 

[RipRoaringWaterfowl]

Dealing in absolutes, the thread?
How about "punishing a child excessively is abuse".

If you harm your child for whatever reason (Well, unless it's a spontaneous strike), it's abuse. It is not, however, abuse to give your child a reasonable grounding when they've done something stupid.
I personally don't believe that kind of parenting accomplishes anything though, so I don't approve of it in any case.
Grounding can of course also be called abuse if it is done excessively. You know, such as grounding your daughter for two years for venting and generally acting a like a stereotypical bratty teenager.

I can agree. Really, it's a moderation thing when doling out punishments, and if one doesn't seem to work, you might try ramping up that particular punishment a bit, or trying a new one... what works can vary, as is mileage when it does.

And +1 internets to you for your last sentence. Good point, good reference.

 

[MrTub]

What do you mean with punishing a kid?

Is that included/exclude hitting a child? cause I would see that as abuse.

spanking is abuse? Really?

Yeah... You're hitting somebody...

...strongly disagree. It isn't abuse, nobody is beating anybody else

"It isn't abuse, nobody is beating anybody else" Can you clarify that?

But may I ask how is it not abuse since you are hitting a person.

Hitting a person =/= automatically abusing someone. When spanking is done as punishment, it is different from a parent hitting a child in the face with a closed fist.

It's still hitting somebody and I personally think its pathetic since you're venting your anger at somebody that is defenseless.
Do you also think people should be able to "spank" a grown up person as punishment for misbehaving?

I wouldn't spank a child out of anger, I would do it if I felt it would be effective in disciplining the child.

As for an adult, imo I don't think it would have the same effect if I did that.....and some people like being spanked >_<

If you do not think it would have any/same affect on grown up, why do you expect it to work on kids?

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Just want to point out, if you ever for some odd reason comes to Sweden. Then I would suggest that you do not spank your kid since that is considered abuse by our legal system.

Um, okay then. Guess I won't be traveling to Sweden then. At least not for the next ten or so years. Not that I was really... planning to. I'm more a fan of France personally. Nothing against Sweden or anything.

 

[BrassButtons]

...really?

Spoiler: your going to compare this

..to spanking a child? Get serious

I'm not comparing the severity of whipping and spanking, I'm pointing out that neither one is punching. Your argued that spanking is not abusive because it isn't punching. Whipping is not punching either. If whipping is abusive despite not being punching, then saying something is different from punching cannot be sufficient to declare it as non-abusive. So, why isn't spanking abusive?

 

[MrTub]

Just want to point out, if you ever for some odd reason comes to Sweden. Then I would suggest that you do not spank your kid since that is considered abuse by our legal system.

Um, okay then. Guess I won't be traveling to Sweden then. At least not for the next ten or so years. Not that I was really... planning to. I'm more a fan of France personally. Nothing against Sweden or anything.

I was just trying to point out that it can be different depending on the culture
And France do seem quite nice.

 

[Bat Vader]

See, I didn't at all find the case of the guy shooting his daughter's laptop shocking because of his action, I found it shocking because of what he was punishing her FOR.

She had the AUDACITY to complain about her parents. How dare she speak out! She does some normal teenagery moaning about having to do chores and she gets her possessions destroyed.

THAT'S what's scary about this father's actions. That he responded to such a little thing with such a threatening gesture, as if to shut her up for good.

I don't think the complaining was the real issue. The real issue seemed to be that she insulted them and the person that helped clean their house.

If she was that mad about the chores she should have talked to her parents about it instead of posting a comment on Facebook insulting them.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

No, that is absurd. It is exactly that kind of thinking that cripples parent's ability to adequately parent their kids. And then we wonder why we have so many unruly kids and apathetic parents these days, the kids aren't learning discipline and the parents are unable to teach it.

 

[spectrenihlus]

It's still hitting somebody and I personally think its pathetic since you're venting your anger at somebody that is defenseless.

Well, you can vent your anger at somebody who's defenseless by saying "Firstname Lastname, YOU'RRRRE GRRRROUNDED! Now go to your room!" Is that abuse to, because of the "venting at a defenseless one" clause?

What I'm saying here is that if it's about venting one's anger, it's not punishment at all, since it has no educational value.

Now, let me propose a scenario.

There was a kid who was caught smoking by the parents once. They made him sit down and told him to smoke the entire pack right there, in front of them, and he can't leave until then. He at first went "Pfsh, no problem!" but after 4-5 in a row, he changed his mind and decided that smoking can fuck him up pretty badly and ruining his health in order to be rebellious and stick it to the man wasn't worth it. Oh, and he didn't actually have to smoke the whole pack after he got to that point.

Now, is this abuse? As punishment, it was pretty damn effective.

I know said kid (well, he's not kid anymore). Was one of the most shocking things that happened to him, but he also admits that he'd likely not have seen the point if the parents tried to just reason with him, or if they just dealt some arbitrary punishment such as grounding.

I do not know if that is abuse, but I would have to guess so since it inflicts physical harm. And if my parents did that to me they would most likely be charged with something since I would have a very very hard time to breath.


But if you are for spanking of children, for to teach them their place, are you also for spanking/smacking a grown person so they know their place/learn how to behave?

There is a reason we treat children and adults separately. An adult can listen to reason (most of the time) I child usually won't.

Have you got any proof for that since I personally find that many adult people do not listen to reason, and if children do not listen to reason then how come parents have successfully parented kids in my country(Sweden) since all hitting is considered abuse?

I severely doubt that just because it was banned that all spanking has ended. There is a vast difference in spanking a child and beating him or her.

 

[Strain42]

For that situation, it would have been more reasonable to talk to her about it first, take away her laptop instead of destroying it, and instead of grounding the girl for about 4 years, coming to more reasonable time slot.

I thought you said you watched the video. He DID do that, the first time she pulled that sort of thing. That's why she got her laptop taken away in the first place and that's why he said "If you do it again, I'll put a bullet through it." It's not his fault that she refused to take his warning to heart. In the future she knows now to trust her father's word.

In regards to punishment being abuse. No, kids should be punished when they do something wrong. Otherwise they grow up thinking anything they do is ok, and we get spoiled self-entitled people who have a much harder time contributing to society.

I've seen a couple people here who said stuff like "scientifically, spanking does no good." Yeah well guess what...that's not helpful. Scientifically people who smoke don't live as long, but one of the oldest living humans who made it to 116 was an avid smoker. Scientifically doesn't matter much to the individual.

I was spanked as a kid when I did something so bad that I deserved it, and it was never for a first time offense. Usually it was after my parents had explained to me that what I did was wrong.

I don't support people who just beat their kids over every little thing, but I do believe that a simple spank can be used to send a message across, especially when you've already exhausted other options to get your kid to behave.

However, spanking only does anyone any good if you explain to the kid why you're doing it.

The first time your kid does something bad, explain that they shouldn't do that. Second time, maybe go for the time out approach, something that sends a message of some sort. Third time, go for the spank and then explain why you did that. Kids aren't stupid, and if they know why that just happened, they'll usually be more careful, so as not to cause it again.

 

[alandavidson]

And about shooting the laptop?
Snapping it would have been one thing, or putting it in water or most anything else would have been better than a gun. Someone who would hit me is bad enough. But someone who has to resort to firearms when they're emotional is terrifying.
Yes, using guns in any way to punish your child is a form of psychological abuse to me. An association between discipline and weapons simply should not exist, especially not for children.

I agree. A gun is not a toy, it is a lethal weapon, and should be treated as such. It's one thing to take a decrepit laptop or computer and fill it full of holes on a range, another thing entirely to pull out a lethal weapon in the middle of a grown "man"'s temper tantrum.

OT: There is a big difference between punishment and discipline. With punishment, there is no room for redemption, discipline is a part of a teaching or guidance. To just "punish" your kid, yes, that's wrong because they never learn anything but to fear and mistrust you. With discipline, there is learning involved, and discipline doesn't always have to be spanking. There are many ways to deal with issues, most of never involving striking your child or ever raising your voice.

 

[DkLnBr]

Depends on the offense and the response, but "the line" of what is acceptable and what isn't changes per person. So the punishment you use being abuse is speculative, and annoying to pin down an absolute answer. I mean just look at all the different opinions in the posts above (and possibly below)

 

[MrTub]

It's still hitting somebody and I personally think its pathetic since you're venting your anger at somebody that is defenseless.

Well, you can vent your anger at somebody who's defenseless by saying "Firstname Lastname, YOU'RRRRE GRRRROUNDED! Now go to your room!" Is that abuse to, because of the "venting at a defenseless one" clause?

What I'm saying here is that if it's about venting one's anger, it's not punishment at all, since it has no educational value.

Now, let me propose a scenario.

There was a kid who was caught smoking by the parents once. They made him sit down and told him to smoke the entire pack right there, in front of them, and he can't leave until then. He at first went "Pfsh, no problem!" but after 4-5 in a row, he changed his mind and decided that smoking can fuck him up pretty badly and ruining his health in order to be rebellious and stick it to the man wasn't worth it. Oh, and he didn't actually have to smoke the whole pack after he got to that point.

Now, is this abuse? As punishment, it was pretty damn effective.

I know said kid (well, he's not kid anymore). Was one of the most shocking things that happened to him, but he also admits that he'd likely not have seen the point if the parents tried to just reason with him, or if they just dealt some arbitrary punishment such as grounding.

I do not know if that is abuse, but I would have to guess so since it inflicts physical harm. And if my parents did that to me they would most likely be charged with something since I would have a very very hard time to breath.


But if you are for spanking of children, for to teach them their place, are you also for spanking/smacking a grown person so they know their place/learn how to behave?

There is a reason we treat children and adults separately. An adult can listen to reason (most of the time) I child usually won't.

Have you got any proof for that since I personally find that many adult people do not listen to reason, and if children do not listen to reason then how come parents have successfully parented kids in my country(Sweden) since all hitting is considered abuse?

I severely doubt that just because it was banned that all spanking has ended. There is a vast difference in spanking a child and beating him or her.

Im sure some people are still hitting their kids but I do not know anyone that has ever been hit by their parents. I do agree there is a difference but it's still abuse, same way that there are different level of assault

Here is some more information if you want to read.
http://voices.yahoo.com/the-effects-no-spanking-law-child-abuse-328316.html?cat=72

"Studies done in 1981 and 1988 showed significant decreases in the use of physical punishment, support of physical punishment, and numbers of cases of child abuse (Hyman 1997). Hyman (1997), director of the National Center for the Study of Corporal Punishment and Alternatives reports that only 26 percent of parents in Sweden supported spanking in 1981, and the support rate is now less than 11 percent. In Deley's (1988) comparative study of child abuse 9 years after the prohibition of corporal punishment, 10.7% of American men and 8.2% of American women sampled stated that they had been victims of child abuse as children, compared to 3.9% of Swedish men and 0% of Swedish women in the sample. Finally, according to Joan Durrant, professor of family studies at the University of Manitoba in Canada, "Sweden went from a family violence- child death rate of 18% in 1970 to 0 percent in recent years" (Hyman 1997:215)."

 

[OtherSideofSky]

Sending a kid to their room for a reasonable amount of time? Making them miss dinner one night? Temporarily taking away their access to video games or television? Suspending their allowance?
Not abuse.

Holding a mentally disabled child down and beating them for over an hour because they weren't acting exactly like all the other kids and then lying about it to the school board to get them punished for being "punished"?
Abuse.

I have extensive experience with the latter and therefore speak with authority on this topic.

 

[Sarah Frazier]

So, I've been following another thread wherein the original poster argued that Tommy Jordan, the man who shot up his daughter's laptop, is abusing his daughter. Disturbingly, I found that some people had the opinion punishing a child for doing something wrong is considered a form of abuse. Some even going as far as suggesting punishing a child for doing something wrong should be considered on the same level as beating a wife.

So, Escapist, do you think punishing a child is, or should be, considered abuse?

Punishment only turns to abuse if it's taken to extremes.

Swatting a child's butt once with an open hand when they misbehave is one thing. Hitting them again and again while holding them down, especially if you hit them with something like a belt, paddle, or any other implement, is abuse. (for those parents not against spanking)

Temporarily taking a toy away from a child when they use it to misbehave is one thing. Forcing a child to get rid of their favorite toys themselves just for staying up past bed time is pushing it. (to be fair, he did say he tried talking to her, then temporarily taking away the laptop before shooting it. She had chances.)

It's astounding that people, parents and parents-some-day, treat any form of punishment or rule enforcement as a crime. Ignoring kids and teens comes with a special name: neglect. It mostly applies to cases where the kid is lucky to get food and a decent place to sleep, but why not apply it to cases when the parent turns a blind eye to bad and possibly dangerous behavior? They obviously don't care enough to try to stop it or ask for help.

 

[Catie Caraco]

Yes, punishing a child for something IS abuse. Wait, wait, before you all jump down my throat:

Disciplining a child, however, is not.

The etymology of the word punishment is that it comes from the French punissement, which literally means "rough handling".

Discipline's root is disciplina, which is Latin for "instruction given, teaching, learning, knowledge,".

Children need discipline over punishment because punishment comes without enlightenment. They don't learn anything from their mistake. Sure, they aren't likely to do whatever it is again, but they have no idea of why not to. Personal example: When I was 'bad' as a child while Grandma Millie was watching me, I'd get smacked with the yardstick. I learned not to jump on the bed again, but I didn't know why I shouldn't have in the first place. I felt victimized because Grandma didn't want me practicing flying to Neverland. (Yes, that is truly what 5 year old me thought I was doing.) If she'd told me not to because I might break it, and it cost a lot of money to replace, and people needed to sleep on it when they came to stay, I wouldn't have felt victimized. Instead I would have understood that people needed to sleep on that bed, and they couldn't if I broke it. I never would have jumped on it again not out of fear of being smacked, but because I knew it to be the right thing to do.

There is a lot more to the psychology and child development around punishment/discipline, like the difference between acting up and acting out, but I think I've said enough. For those of you who are parents or aspire to be so, remember that if you want your children to be good because they want to be good, not out of fear of being bad, discipline is the path for you.

As for the dad shooting the daughter's laptop... it was rather melodramatic, and posting it on Facebook was an act designed to humiliate. However, he did explain clearly why he was doing it, and I think in the end he wanted her to learn from the experience. He could have handled it better, but it was not abuse.

 

[Cpu46]

I've never understood spanking. "Hey, Timmy was misbehaving today. Let's beat the kid into submission." It's been proven to have no positive effect, yet people still do it. That never makes any sense to me.

Well beating the kid into submission is definitely abuse. Taking out a belt and wailing away at them, yes. Punching or kicking them, yes. However a quick slap (or a few depending on what the kid did) to the butt, hands, or other non essential/vital part of the body, at least in my mind, shouldn't be seen as a form of abuse. Especially if the kid is pushing clearly marked boundaries. The people who say that it is abuse either had really good kids, never had to watch misbehaving kids, or never have had to deal with young kids.