Is punishing a kid consider abuse?

[redisforever]

I never intend to have kids, or at least, I don't now, but I think they should be raised properly. They have to be taught right from wrong. If they do something wrong, they should be punished, so they know not to do it again, and that doing something wrong leads to punishment. If a child goes unpunished for something wrong, they will start thinking that they can get away with anything, and this leads to a horrible thing. Entitlement. I hate that. All these kids who are spoiled by their parents into thinking they can get anything for no work. Thinking they can do anything with no consequences. I just realized I sound like a parent at only age 17, but the point is, I was raised this way, and I think it works. The child may dislike, or hell, hate the parent while they're being punished, but later in life, they will realize what it meant, and how it helped them later. And they will thank their parents. Now, I'm not advocating abuse, God no. What I'm saying is that everything that a child does, that is wrong, must be dealt with accordingly, and everything a child does right should be rewarded. Yes, I do think parents should be allowed to hit their kids. I don't think they should have to, and should try to avoid it, but yes, in certain cases, they should. Now, when I say hit, I do not mean beat. That is abuse, and very, very wrong. That got very long, very fast.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

So, Escapist, do you think punishing a child is, or should be, considered abuse?

It really depends.

A spanking? Not abuse.

A whipping or spanking with a belt or physical paddle? Probably abuse.

An open-hand slap on a fleshy body part (such as the butt) deals a sharp, brief pain with no lingering damage. Not abuse.

A close-hand hit, or hitting with an object, can deal actual damage to the skin and cause lasting pain. Abuse, or bordering on abuse.

As with so many things, it's an issue of moderation. You have to consider WHY you are hitting the child. A brief pain no damage hit is Pavlovian - it causes the child to associate bad results with bad behavior. A lasting, damaging hit causes fear and trauma and can damage a child's psychological development. The only reason parents go for the lasting, damaging hit is because it makes THEM (the abusive parent) feel better - which is both sick and pathetic.

It's like how, when my cat misbehaves, I sometimes throw a small pillow at her. It doesn't do any damage, but it's startling, and now she knows that if I hold up the pillow threateningly that she's being naughty and should stop.

Of course, Pavlovian techniques work best when you reward good behavior - something many parents forget.

 

[SwagLordYoloson]

Legally it can be considered abuse. But I disagree with many laws, abuse for disciplinary action should be taken into consideration and those who fail at tasks in the workforce should be slapped twice with a salmon. Thus I would expect the same action be taken out among children, but seeing as they are still developing as humans one slap with a carp would be sufficient punishment.

 

[MrTub]

So, Escapist, do you think punishing a child is, or should be, considered abuse?

It really depends.

A spanking? Not abuse.

A whipping or spanking with a belt or physical paddle? Probably abuse.

An open-hand slap on a fleshy body part (such as the butt) deals a sharp, brief pain with no lingering damage. Not abuse.

A close-hand hit, or hitting with an object, can deal actual damage to the skin and cause lasting pain. Abuse, or bordering on abuse.

As with so many things, it's an issue of moderation. You have to consider WHY you are hitting the child. A brief pain no damage hit is Pavlovian - it causes the child to associate bad results with bad behavior. A lasting, damaging hit causes fear and trauma and can damage a child's psychological development. The only reason parents go for the lasting, damaging hit is because it makes THEM (the abusive parent) feel better - which is both sick and pathetic.

It's like how, when my cat misbehaves, I sometimes throw a small pillow at her. It doesn't do any damage, but it's startling, and now she knows that if I hold up the pillow threateningly that she's being naughty and should stop.

Of course, Pavlovian techniques work best when you reward good behavior - something many parents forget.

Just want to point out, if you ever for some odd reason comes to Sweden. Then I would suggest that you do not spank your kid since that is considered abuse by our legal system.

http://voices.yahoo.com/the-effects-no-spanking-law-child-abuse-328316.html

 

[NoOne852]

I have seen that video. I think the father was overreacting to his daughter venting on facebook (and really, it was stupid of him to shoot up a several thousand dollar laptop [someone I know did some research to find out the whole situation in the video] along with the 130 dollars he just spent on software to put on it). I find it very unlikely she meant everything that was said, it isn't like no other kid in the world was never mad at their parents at some point and would vent about what they view is unfair. The difference in that situation was that the father found out about what the daughter said.

OT:
No, punishing a child is not abuse, but that also depends on what the punishment is. In the instance I was speaking of earlier, the girl was grounded until she goes to college and her father destoried her laptop. For that situation, it would have been more reasonable to talk to her about it first, take away her laptop instead of destroying it, and instead of grounding the girl for about 4 years, coming to more reasonable time slot.
But assuming you meant physical punishment, as long as it isn't going overboard and it only occurs when necessary, it isn't an issue.

 

[Woodsey]

I think you'll find people had a problem with the slightly psychopathic way in which he went about it. Plenty of people suggested, you know, giving the fucking laptop away. The whole "and your mum asked me to put a bullet in it for her too," is ridiculous. Not to mention he did the EXACT same thing his daughter did, only he added bullets, and 15 million more people to the mix.

Plus, all she really did was moan about her parents on Facebook. Big fucking deal, people need to vent - its not exactly healthy (for the girl or the parents) for them to look into every part of her life.

"Some even going as far as suggesting punishing a child for doing something wrong should be considered on the same level as beating a wife."

... what kind of child 'punishment' are you advocating exactly, if you're getting that sort of response?

 

[spectrenihlus]

It's still hitting somebody and I personally think its pathetic since you're venting your anger at somebody that is defenseless.

Well, you can vent your anger at somebody who's defenseless by saying "Firstname Lastname, YOU'RRRRE GRRRROUNDED! Now go to your room!" Is that abuse to, because of the "venting at a defenseless one" clause?

What I'm saying here is that if it's about venting one's anger, it's not punishment at all, since it has no educational value.

Now, let me propose a scenario.

There was a kid who was caught smoking by the parents once. They made him sit down and told him to smoke the entire pack right there, in front of them, and he can't leave until then. He at first went "Pfsh, no problem!" but after 4-5 in a row, he changed his mind and decided that smoking can fuck him up pretty badly and ruining his health in order to be rebellious and stick it to the man wasn't worth it. Oh, and he didn't actually have to smoke the whole pack after he got to that point.

Now, is this abuse? As punishment, it was pretty damn effective.

I know said kid (well, he's not kid anymore). Was one of the most shocking things that happened to him, but he also admits that he'd likely not have seen the point if the parents tried to just reason with him, or if they just dealt some arbitrary punishment such as grounding.

I do not know if that is abuse, but I would have to guess so since it inflicts physical harm. And if my parents did that to me they would most likely be charged with something since I would have a very very hard time to breath.


But if you are for spanking of children, for to teach them their place, are you also for spanking/smacking a grown person so they know their place/learn how to behave?

There is a reason we treat children and adults separately. An adult can listen to reason (most of the time) I child usually won't.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

What do you mean with punishing a kid?

Is that included/exclude hitting a child? cause I would see that as abuse.

spanking is abuse? Really?

Yeah... You're hitting somebody...

...strongly disagree. It isn't abuse, nobody is beating anybody else

"It isn't abuse, nobody is beating anybody else" Can you clarify that?

But may I ask how is it not abuse since you are hitting a person.

Hitting a person =/= automatically abusing someone. When spanking is done as punishment, it is different from a parent hitting a child in the face with a closed fist.

It's still hitting somebody and I personally think its pathetic since you're venting your anger at somebody that is defenseless.
Do you also think people should be able to "spank" a grown up person as punishment for misbehaving?

I wouldn't spank a child out of anger, I would do it if I felt it would be effective in disciplining the child.

As for an adult, imo I don't think it would have the same effect if I did that.....and some people like being spanked >_<

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

When spanking is done as punishment, it is different from a parent hitting a child in the face with a closed fist.

Whipping isn't the same as punching either, but it's still abuse. Spanking being different from punching does not mean it isn't also a form of abuse.

..really?

Spoiler: your going to compare this

..to spanking a child? Get serious

 

[MrTub]

It's still hitting somebody and I personally think its pathetic since you're venting your anger at somebody that is defenseless.

Well, you can vent your anger at somebody who's defenseless by saying "Firstname Lastname, YOU'RRRRE GRRRROUNDED! Now go to your room!" Is that abuse to, because of the "venting at a defenseless one" clause?

What I'm saying here is that if it's about venting one's anger, it's not punishment at all, since it has no educational value.

Now, let me propose a scenario.

There was a kid who was caught smoking by the parents once. They made him sit down and told him to smoke the entire pack right there, in front of them, and he can't leave until then. He at first went "Pfsh, no problem!" but after 4-5 in a row, he changed his mind and decided that smoking can fuck him up pretty badly and ruining his health in order to be rebellious and stick it to the man wasn't worth it. Oh, and he didn't actually have to smoke the whole pack after he got to that point.

Now, is this abuse? As punishment, it was pretty damn effective.

I know said kid (well, he's not kid anymore). Was one of the most shocking things that happened to him, but he also admits that he'd likely not have seen the point if the parents tried to just reason with him, or if they just dealt some arbitrary punishment such as grounding.

I do not know if that is abuse, but I would have to guess so since it inflicts physical harm. And if my parents did that to me they would most likely be charged with something since I would have a very very hard time to breath.


But if you are for spanking of children, for to teach them their place, are you also for spanking/smacking a grown person so they know their place/learn how to behave?

There is a reason we treat children and adults separately. An adult can listen to reason (most of the time) I child usually won't.

Have you got any proof for that since I personally find that many adult people do not listen to reason, and if children do not listen to reason then how come parents have successfully parented kids in my country(Sweden) since all hitting is considered abuse?

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

Depends on what form the punishment takes. Denying them things like they like, shouting at them, even reasoning with oldr children to explain why they did wrong and why you must do something to them.

But if you hit your child, fuck you.

This is a point I have spent some time debating on and arguing in the past, I have come to conclusions like 'If you say you were hit and it did you no harm, then why do you think hitting children is okay? You clearly were harmed because that behaviour is abhorrent.' I quoted studies that show it leads to stress, depression, low intelligence, greater incidences of crime and violence in later life. I debated on the morality of striking another human being at all, whatever the reason.

In the end I reached the conclusion that those unfortunate enough to have been raised in a familial culture of violence will never give up violence, no matter how strong the argument. So instead I have but one thing to say to them now.

If you think hitting a defenceless, innocent child, weaker and smaller then yourself is okay, you are wrong. If you think that teaching a child that when you are bigger and stronger it is okay to hit people who do things you don't like will teach them anything more than that violence solves their problems you are clearly suffering from the low IQ problem mentioned in the study. And if you make the outrageous claim that you support hitting children because you yourself were hit as a child and have noticed no problems then I have news. If you consider hitting a child okay you have a problem.

And not that I think anyone involved in this debate is remotely interested in actual science as opposed to generalising based on their own experiences, but:
http://www.livescience.com/7895-children-spanked-iqs.html

 

[RipRoaringWaterfowl]

Dealing in absolutes, the thread?
How about "punishing a child excessively is abuse".

If you harm your child for whatever reason (Well, unless it's a spontaneous strike), it's abuse. It is not, however, abuse to give your child a reasonable grounding when they've done something stupid.
I personally don't believe that kind of parenting accomplishes anything though, so I don't approve of it in any case.
Grounding can of course also be called abuse if it is done excessively. You know, such as grounding your daughter for two years for venting and generally acting a like a stereotypical bratty teenager.

I can agree. Really, it's a moderation thing when doling out punishments, and if one doesn't seem to work, you might try ramping up that particular punishment a bit, or trying a new one... what works can vary, as is mileage when it does.

And +1 internets to you for your last sentence. Good point, good reference.

 

[MrTub]

What do you mean with punishing a kid?

Is that included/exclude hitting a child? cause I would see that as abuse.

spanking is abuse? Really?

Yeah... You're hitting somebody...

...strongly disagree. It isn't abuse, nobody is beating anybody else

"It isn't abuse, nobody is beating anybody else" Can you clarify that?

But may I ask how is it not abuse since you are hitting a person.

Hitting a person =/= automatically abusing someone. When spanking is done as punishment, it is different from a parent hitting a child in the face with a closed fist.

It's still hitting somebody and I personally think its pathetic since you're venting your anger at somebody that is defenseless.
Do you also think people should be able to "spank" a grown up person as punishment for misbehaving?

I wouldn't spank a child out of anger, I would do it if I felt it would be effective in disciplining the child.

As for an adult, imo I don't think it would have the same effect if I did that.....and some people like being spanked >_<

If you do not think it would have any/same affect on grown up, why do you expect it to work on kids?

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Just want to point out, if you ever for some odd reason comes to Sweden. Then I would suggest that you do not spank your kid since that is considered abuse by our legal system.

Um, okay then. Guess I won't be traveling to Sweden then. At least not for the next ten or so years. Not that I was really... planning to. I'm more a fan of France personally. Nothing against Sweden or anything.

 

[BrassButtons]

...really?

Spoiler: your going to compare this

..to spanking a child? Get serious

I'm not comparing the severity of whipping and spanking, I'm pointing out that neither one is punching. Your argued that spanking is not abusive because it isn't punching. Whipping is not punching either. If whipping is abusive despite not being punching, then saying something is different from punching cannot be sufficient to declare it as non-abusive. So, why isn't spanking abusive?

 

[MrTub]

Just want to point out, if you ever for some odd reason comes to Sweden. Then I would suggest that you do not spank your kid since that is considered abuse by our legal system.

Um, okay then. Guess I won't be traveling to Sweden then. At least not for the next ten or so years. Not that I was really... planning to. I'm more a fan of France personally. Nothing against Sweden or anything.

I was just trying to point out that it can be different depending on the culture
And France do seem quite nice.

 

[Bat Vader]

See, I didn't at all find the case of the guy shooting his daughter's laptop shocking because of his action, I found it shocking because of what he was punishing her FOR.

She had the AUDACITY to complain about her parents. How dare she speak out! She does some normal teenagery moaning about having to do chores and she gets her possessions destroyed.

THAT'S what's scary about this father's actions. That he responded to such a little thing with such a threatening gesture, as if to shut her up for good.

I don't think the complaining was the real issue. The real issue seemed to be that she insulted them and the person that helped clean their house.

If she was that mad about the chores she should have talked to her parents about it instead of posting a comment on Facebook insulting them.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

No, that is absurd. It is exactly that kind of thinking that cripples parent's ability to adequately parent their kids. And then we wonder why we have so many unruly kids and apathetic parents these days, the kids aren't learning discipline and the parents are unable to teach it.