Is punishing a kid consider abuse?

[Nohra]

I find a lot of these threads debating what Mr. Jordan did rather silly, especially in light of the post on Facebook he made in response to the Dallas Fox affiliate. Honestly, people are going to be debating this for months and months, when it's already been effectively resolved for him and his family.

My response to the Dallas Fox affiliate on their news headline. You can read the headline by clicking the link below:


I?ve made it a point of not responding to news or media thus far, but I?m going to reply to a few specific issues mentioned from the news anchors:

First, let me say Thanks for not making me out as a TOTAL villain, though you cut-together enough footage sequences to make it seem that way in segments?

It was an emotional response: Yes ma?am it was an emotional response. I raised my children to never use that kind of language, especially in a public place like that. There were so many vulgarities? I don?t even know where to start. She was mad and I get that, but there are way to talk about things without resorting to that kind of language.

Secondly, and I?ve said this on Facebook as well, but I?m sure it will get lost in the flotsam of comments out there; I shouldn?t have said the word ?ass.? I?ll agree that wasn?t a good example of me as a father. I had been reading that post again and again for about an hour, sometimes in tears, other times so mad my hands were shaking and I was trying very hard to be civil in my message. I slipped in that and said a word I shouldn?t have. I deserve a little backlash for that, no doubt.

In response to Dr Fletcher?s comments:
Fifteen year olds don?t the social maturity to know what the consequence might be? I learned at about age 3 what good words were.. and what bad word were. I learned what I should say, and what I shouldn?t say. Those lessons were reinforced throughout my life as a pre-teen, teenager, and later into adulthood. I think it?s safe to assume we?ve attempted to instill in her the values that should make it obvious to ANY 15-year old that neither the content, nor its publication to the world at large was acceptable for any child, or even any adult for that matter.

The punishment wasn?t natural or logical?
She?s known the rules for Facebook ever since she was allowed to have an account. She?s broken them from time to time, sometimes by accident, sometimes as a way of stretching her boundaries to see just how firm the boundaries were. This was neither. Her post was WAY over the top.

The Dr mentioned she ?doesn?t really know what my daughter will learn from this consequence.? I hoped that would be self-explanatory, but I guess you can?t see that without knowing the rest of the story. The last time she did something completely inappropriate, she was grounded from the Internet for three months. The very day she got it back we had a nice long amicable talk about what was and was not acceptable and that I wanted her to have a chance to prove she was responsible enough to utilize the internet unsupervised? by exercising her renewed freedom in a responsible way. The point of this being that proving you can be trusted to be responsible in one venue can lead to increased freedoms in other venues. I ended that conversation with a warning. I told her if no uncertain terms that we had already taken it away from her once. The next time, there wouldn?t be the same chance. If it happened again, ?I?ll put a bullet through it.?

The ?This one?s from your mom? comment:
Before I made the video this week, I called my wife at her office, mostly in tears. The first words out of my mouth were ?Please convince me not to put a bullet through Hannah?s laptop.? She knew something was wrong and asked me to be sensible and tell her what happened. Instead I began reading her the Facebook post our daughter made. She let me get to the end of the post, said ?I?m sorry honey? and then said ?put one in it for me while you?re at it?? so I did.

Contradiction in Terms?
No I don?t think so. Yes I told my daughter not to air that kind of material on Facebook because it was hurtful to other people. It embarrassed them. It caused them to feel humiliated, especially our very very good friend, who is NOT a cleaning lady by any stretch of the imagination!

Instead, I simply turned the tables and let her be on the receiving end of something and see how it made her feel. You mentioned not embellishing it, not sensationalizing it. I didn?t. I read exactly what she put out there for the world to see, in her own words. Then I added a few of my own words to it.

And then, yes, I shot it full of holes. Would I have received the same viral attention if I?d used it as a dog toy, hit it with a hammer, drove over it with the truck, or simply thrown it away? I?m not sure. But the point is that her parents told her ?If it happens again, I?ll put a bullet through it.?
So, rather than let her push that particular boundary any further, I did absolutely no more and no less than I promised I?d do. Do I regret doing it? No. Do I regret keeping it on Facebook long enough to cause this stir? Yes. However at this time I feel that if I took the post or the video down, I?d just make it appear that we?re running in shame from it, and we?re not.

Truthfully though the social attention has helped her and I both deal with it. We had our discussion about it after she returned home from school. We set the ground rules for her punishment, and then I let her read some of the comments on Facebook with me at my computer. At first it was upsetting. Then as we read it became less so, eventually funny to both of us. At the end, she was amazed that other people had such amazingly strong reactions. Some said she?d grow up to be a stripper. Others that she?d get pregnant and become drug addicted because of the emotional damage. She actually asked me to go on Facebook and ask if there was anything else the victim of a laptop-homicide could do besides stripping because all the posts seem to mention that particular job and she wasn?t so keen on that one.

So in the end, she?s fine. My Facebook wall will never be the same again, and we?ll be OK as a family and she?ll grow up happy, healthy, and have everything she needs, but not everything she wants. And I absolutely guarantee she?ll never doubt my resolve to follow-through on a consequence again.

 

[Nexxis]

I don't think that punishing a child is abuse, but there is a limit. Smacking the kid on the hand is not the same as pulling a gun on them. Physical punishment, or even emotional/mental punishment should not have the potential to injure a child. I've had spankings as a kid and, IMO, there are kids that need spankings who don't get them. However, I do not approve of being overly violent to a kid, even if it's just displaying such violence.

 

[kenu12345]

Only if it is excessive i have no problem with spanking.

 

[A Free Man]

So, I've been following another thread wherein the original poster argued that Tommy Jordan, the man who shot up his daughter's laptop, is abusing his daughter. Disturbingly, I found that some people had the opinion punishing a child for doing something wrong is considered a form of abuse. Some even going as far as suggesting punishing a child for doing something wrong should be considered on the same level as beating a wife.

So, Escapist, do you think punishing a child is, or should be, considered abuse?

No. I really don't think anything more needs to be said. Children need to be taught right from wrong, if they aren't it ends very badly for everyone involved. I mean I'm not against positive reinforcement, if your kids do the right thing it is better to highlight those things and reward them then punish negative behavior. But that being said there is a big big difference between punishing a child to teach a lesson and maliciously attempting to cause them pain for your own enjoyment. Anyone who says punishing children is abuse is a complete idiot.

 

[Patathatapon]

I'm going to answer this stuff by questioning myself.

Is it ok to give discipline to a child? Yes, when that guy shot his daughters laptop, it was because she believed she could be disrespectful to her parents with no trouble at all.

Do I approve of what that guy did to the laptop? No, I would've sold it personally (then again he was probably pissed so maybe it did seem rational at the time).

Is it ok to HURT a child (this is my opinion!)? Yes and no. I would not consider a spank as bad and it also the ONLY form of child hurting I'd approve of.

I'm not a parent however, but I'm going by the way I was taught.

EDIT: My writing was used for the posts on the first page that I read. Apologies if my writing is not based on most of the conversation on here.

 

[TingaWinga]

I vote for more punishment that way there are less running rampant annoying others, As long as the punishment is not over the top adults should be encouraged to discipline their children in this way.
I think more discipline is the answer.

 

[Thatguyky]

No it's not abuse to give them a smacked bottom once in a while if you have exhausted all other alternatives.

But there is obviously a fine line between slapping their bum as a form of discipline and out right abuse.
The way I see it, it should be used as a last resort for the unruly.

Gotta agree with Electro Dave here, this is pretty much my thoughts on the matter as well. It's actually how I was raised, and I'm fine!
The few times I actually did something bad enough to earn a slap on the tush, was the last time I did that bad deed, and my parents never resorted to that as their first option. I was just stubborn little bastard at times xD

The only time it becomes abuse is when it becomes routine, excessive, and done with no reason behind it.

 

[SaetonChapelle]

This is dangerous territory. Working in child psychology the topic comes up a lot in dealing with the levels of punishment a child receives and when it is to be considered "abusive".

In my opinion, removing an object or item from the child that is not required for survival (food, clothing, shelter being involved) is a form of negative reassurance. (Negative not being used as something that is "bad", but rather minus the object in question, a - symbol). Excessively berating a child for their actions, lifestyle, home environment or such is. Excessive use of force against the child can also be considered abusive, however for a young child the use of what we once called a "spanking", which was once when used mildly and not an everyday occurrence is now being considered sexual assault and battery.

Personally, I have slapped my child on the bottom when theyve done wrong. I have removed their toys for a period of time, or even for good when they have acted in a negative fashion. A child must learn respect for the adult, for themselves, and for the things around them.

An example of a time of spanking, when my child was attempting to place a metal object into the light fixture. I imedietly removed said item and gave them a firm tap to the rear, informing them of what they had done wrong and of the consequences that could have occured. They associated the mild pain I had delivered to the pain they could have recieved more heavily if they had done the previous action, and have since not touched the fixture or attempted to place anything inside.

Now, constantly slapping someone around, not informing them of the reasons for punishment, leaving marks, having it occur multiple times per day, verbally berating the child, or continuing the spankings past a certain age, that is considered abuse that can further scare a child. I have however seen very few patients who were spanked as children who came to me with thoughts of sexual abuse when they were young by their parents or guardians. I also do not tell parents that a good form of punishment is spanking. A child should be punished with positive and negative reinforcement, and direct physical force should be avoided if possible.

 

[dragonswarrior]

A huge problem here of course is how do you define abuse. Ive seen several people going with the whole "is spanking abuse?" debate in this thread, and the answer of course is people aren't sure yet.

Scientifically, they have proven that even just regular old spankings can lead to psychological trauma and damage to the kid. Nothing that would be excessive by today's social and moral standards, but according to science yes. Yes it is causing serious, sometimes permanent, damage.

Secondly, I'm guessing most of us have been through the spanking point at sometime in our lives. I want you to try and reach back and remember how fucking awful it was. If you were like most people, you probably screamed and fought and did everything in your power (as little as that was) to avoid being hit by your parents. I don't want to hear "Oh well I learned my lesson." because there are plenty of other ways to teach that lesson that might take longer but don't result in trauma. Yes, it is traumatizing. And yes, you are fine today, sure, but you have to realize that that is also what you tell yourself every day so you can keep your confidence in yourself and your world view.

So yea, I'm on the side of spanking is abuse. And yes, I think that what the gentleman did by shooting his daughters laptop is excessive and will in the long run do more harm than good.

His daughter is also a spoiled brat. But who the hell made her one in the first place? He came on that video talking about how he just blew 130 bucks to upgrade her laptop... and then he gets upset when she feels entitled? C'mon man, address the actual issues at hand, don't just pop a cap in the girls electronics because you never got around to teaching her she wasn't the center of the universe.

 

[karcentric]

Kids need discipline. A light clip behind the ear isn't bad. Belting them with a belt or a wooden spoon might be a little over the top.

 

[renegade7]

Psychologically speaking, reinforcement (both positive and negative) is more effective than punishment. It gives something to work for, rather than something to fear.

Also, no pissed off 15 year old girl is ever going to respect the guy who shot her laptop, which by the sound of it was her main source of entertainment/communication. No, I'll bet you quite a bit of money that now all she's 'learned' is that her dad is a wingnut and she has to work harder to hide stuff from him.

You see, it's easier to hide your wrongdoings to avoid punishment (ESPECIALLY if you're a teenager, and your disciplinarians are your parents whom you've had a dozen+ years to learn to manipulate) than to actually modify the behavior.

 

[soes757]

If you let your children run around and do anything they like the whole world ends up like IGN.
That or the zombie apocalypse, you can have your pick, same thing really.
All jokes aside, if you don't punish children they end up like spoiled brats who kill a guy for no reason other than they didn't do what they wanted.

 

[Final First]

I've never understood spanking. "Hey, Timmy was misbehaving today. Let's beat the kid into submission." It's been proven to have no positive effect, yet people still do it. That never makes any sense to me.


As for the dad putting a few rounds into his daughters laptop? It may have been a tad dramatic, but she deserved it, in my opinion. I feel punishment by negative reinforcement (taking away privileges, grounding, etc) isn't abuse, it's sensible parenting.

All my opinion, of course. I'm no parent, so this is easy for me to say.

I have to stop you right there and say that I was spanked as a kid and knew many other kids whom never had corporal punishment. One was a jerk and one literally tried to stab is mother among other things. The ones like me who were punished when doing something really wrong almost never did anything wrong because of it.

 

[Rad Party God]

*sigh* I can't see this thread go well in the next few hours.

I'm not against punishing kids, what I don't tolerate, is the way some people choose to do so.

It's not the fact that he shot her laptop, it's the way he did it. I don't care if he was responsible at shooting the thing, that's not the point.

Shooting her property in front of millions is not what I'd consider "good parenting".

 

[manic_depressive13]

An example of a time of spanking, when my child was attempting to place a metal object into the light fixture. I imedietly removed said item and gave them a firm tap to the rear, informing them of what they had done wrong and of the consequences that could have occured. They associated the mild pain I had delivered to the pain they could have recieved more heavily if they had done the previous action, and have since not touched the fixture or attempted to place anything inside.

How old was your child when this happened? Do you really think it was the spank that drove the point home, so to speak, or do you think when the kid realised it might kill them they decided they didn't want to do that after all? In terms of spanking, I don't think we should be asking "Is it always harmful?". Rather, we should be asking "Is it ever necessary?"

 

[Final First]

Spanking on the bottom alone is not bad at all, but resorting to flat out beating a child is abuse. However, as most seem to forget, one can teach a child and still use the spanking method of punishment. It's not like all of those who spank their child just let them go and do whatever after spanking them. They tell them why what they did was wrong so the child has two reasons why not to do it again, 1: It's wrong and 2: You'll get spanked again.

Also and for those saying that the use of firearms in that video was scary, you're missing the point. He is not going to harm his daughter, he just did that to get a point across: he would rather destroy the laptop with a gun than give it to his daughter. He was not threatening her at all...

Sorry for the off topic last paragraph but I just had to put my two cents in.

 

[Instant K4rma]

I've never understood spanking. "Hey, Timmy was misbehaving today. Let's beat the kid into submission." It's been proven to have no positive effect, yet people still do it. That never makes any sense to me.


As for the dad putting a few rounds into his daughters laptop? It may have been a tad dramatic, but she deserved it, in my opinion. I feel punishment by negative reinforcement (taking away privileges, grounding, etc) isn't abuse, it's sensible parenting.

All my opinion, of course. I'm no parent, so this is easy for me to say.

I have to stop you right there and say that I was spanked as a kid and knew many other kids whom never had corporal punishment. One was a jerk and one literally tried to stab is mother among other things. The ones like me who were punished when doing something really wrong almost never did anything wrong because of it.

Whether or not an attempted murder is a consequence of a lack of spanking is a long stretch, to say the least. I know people who have been spanked that grew up to be great people, and I know people that were spanked that are currently in jail. Saying "This person wasn't spanked and is now a convict" presents a pretty vague argument.

I'm not saying that people that are spanked grow up to be bad people, and I'm not trying to offend anyone's parents/parenting. That's not what I'm getting at. I just don't find it to be a good approach to parenting, and that's my opinion. My brother and I were not spanked, and we're doing alright so far (still early, mind you).

I personally view it as beating a child, and I just can't see myself getting behind that.

Sorry.

 

[Dragonpit]

It actually depends on the level of severity of the punishment with me. Some things are okay, and some things are not okay. At the very least, something must be done to discourage bad behavior and instill a certain amount of discipline. The punishments I received as a child ranged from being spanked to being forced to stand in a corner of a while. I never felt it was wrong or undeserved, but then, I was a child.

Shooting up a laptop? That's not abuse. It's certainly overkill (he should've at least taken it away and hid it or something. At least that way, it could've been returned as a form of reward), but I can't see it being abusive. Spanking? After a certain age, yeah, I can see that. Otherwise, I doubt most children are going to be traumatized. Especially since you're not trying to knock the kid senseless or shatter bones or cause contushions (sp?). Now those are steps too far.

Abuse is about doing damage, physical or emotional. Punishment is not. It's about lessons, and there are right and wrong ways of teaching them. The question is: if you truly think spanking and the such are wrong, then what are you doing to do in the regard of punishment instead?

 

[Bat Vader]

If the parent is beating the utter crap out of their child/teenager than yes I would consider that abuse. If the parent grounds their child/teenager and takes away privileges like the computer, TV, music, ETC than no I would not consider it abuse.

 

[Final First]

I've never understood spanking. "Hey, Timmy was misbehaving today. Let's beat the kid into submission." It's been proven to have no positive effect, yet people still do it. That never makes any sense to me.


As for the dad putting a few rounds into his daughters laptop? It may have been a tad dramatic, but she deserved it, in my opinion. I feel punishment by negative reinforcement (taking away privileges, grounding, etc) isn't abuse, it's sensible parenting.

All my opinion, of course. I'm no parent, so this is easy for me to say.

I have to stop you right there and say that I was spanked as a kid and knew many other kids whom never had corporal punishment. One was a jerk and one literally tried to stab is mother among other things. The ones like me who were punished when doing something really wrong almost never did anything wrong because of it.

Whether or not an attempted murder is a consequence of a lack of spanking is a long stretch, to say the least. I know people who have been spanked that grew up to be great people, and I know people that were spanked that are currently in jail. Saying "This person wasn't spanked and is now a convict" presents a pretty vague argument.

I'm not saying that people that are spanked grow up to be bad people, and I'm not trying to offend anyone's parents/parenting. That's not what I'm getting at. I just don't find it to be a good approach to parenting, and that's my opinion. My brother and I were not spanked, and we're doing alright so far (still early, mind you).

I personally view it as beating a child, and I just can't see myself getting behind that.

Sorry.

I know that jumping to assumptions like this is inefficient and you're right. I should have noted that this was just a guess going by experience and witnessing many people who did not get such punishments and became spoiled and almost - murderers.

I've never understood spanking. "Hey, Timmy was misbehaving today. Let's beat the kid into submission." It's been proven to have no positive effect, yet people still do it. That never makes any sense to me.


As for the dad putting a few rounds into his daughters laptop? It may have been a tad dramatic, but she deserved it, in my opinion. I feel punishment by negative reinforcement (taking away privileges, grounding, etc) isn't abuse, it's sensible parenting.

All my opinion, of course. I'm no parent, so this is easy for me to say.

I have to stop you right there and say that I was spanked as a kid and knew many other kids whom never had corporal punishment. One was a jerk and one literally tried to stab is mother among other things. The ones like me who were punished when doing something really wrong almost never did anything wrong because of it.

The problem with your argument is that you're making assumptions about the causes. You have, what, people with a couple decades of life experiences? And you're saying that you somehow are able to isolate all variables in their lives and determine that corporal punishment or lack thereof was the cause of their later behavior? Quite frankly trying to look at a few cases and determine that you know the cause is just downright illogical.

I know it is illogical to say I know for a fact that I am right, I'm just making an actual guess based on proof despite if that proof may be false. Though one of those people I speak of that are spoiled are one of my relatives so I know how they were raised and their experiences.