Is Rap Music Really Music?

[Doinstuffman38]

Unfortunately, yes. Not good music, but in a technical sense, it is.

Now, I don't like rap (except for MC Lars and maybe Sage Francis), I just want to get that out there. I feel like most rap is just the same recycled drum and bass beats, auto-tuned vocals, and talkin' about bitches, hoes, bitchy hoes, and smoking weed or drinking something. I don't see what people see in these rappers. I feel like if I was ever forced to add rap to my iTunes, I would probably put older stuff on. That seemed to be about... something.

Not trying to flame or troll, just my opinion.

 

[sageoftruth]

As i read through the various arguments presented within this topic and the opinions of people whom state that most rap is shit i find myself slightly sickened. It's one thing to state that you do not like hip-hop rap and rmb but it's another to say that it is shit and 99.9% is garbage and thus not worth the time to make it. It is like i have stated before an expression of what people are subject to in their daily lives. Gangsta rap evolved as a sub-genre of of the hip-hop community just a metalcore is not all that heavy metal has to present gangsta rap is not all that rap has to present. when i read that gangsta rap is only about shooting bitches and getting rich it makes me want to vomit out of pity mostly. I listen to rock, rap,classical,blues,jazz, and Indian music and each one presents some thing different that i come specifically to listen to. I don't not compare one by the standards of another because if i were to do that of course i they would not stand on equal footing with one another. It is clear to me here people want emotional content from their music and all music(yes rap is music) presents that. now is rap presenting an emotion and or subject matter you want to deal with probably not but this is not the fault of the artist it's yours for not being open to the concepts presented in each song.

Lets take Rapper Notorious B.I.G. as an example because I'm sure everyone knows who he is and can identify who he is.Time magazine wrote Wallace(B.I.G.) rapped with an ability to "make multi-syllabic rhymes sound... smooth". Allmusic wrote that the success of Ready to Die is "mostly due to Wallace's skill as a storyteller"On Life After Death Wallace notably demonstrated this skill on "I Got a Story to Tell" telling a story as a rap for the first half of the song and then as a story "for his boys" in conversation form. he was one of the most popular gangsta rappers of all time and the reason he rapped about the content he did was because he lived that life style. Before he rapped he sold drugs and committed the crimes described in his songs. His music was an expression of his life his art. He help a trend reach epic portions gangstas had become what people wanted to hear about because they spoke about the lives of the people whom lived in their neighborhoods. Rap is not the way it is because rappers want to be derogatory and amoral. It is the way it is because of the sociology of the neighborhoods which create them.

So people should not come to the table hoping to find the heavy metal lyrics and performance style that is generally associated with masculinity and machismo, but some thing different. They should listen to the topic the rapper is presenting in their song and then decide if the topic is palatable to them or not. If it is not then don't listen to the that rapper but don't assume ever rapper talks about the same thing every single song. The rappers is conveying a story about the ghetto life style. The subject matter is not for every one but it is no less valid then the subject matter presented by by bands such as Black Sabbath, Aerosmith, Lead Zeppelin, or The Ramones. I seriously doubt anyone here if they like rap or not has listened to most of the rap available so to make such a claim is absolutely asinine. Oh I almost forgot though I'm sure every one here thinks pop is sad and terrible i would like to mention that pop means popular music...this would imply that most people like it. I know every one here is just so nonconformist and against the grain that every pop song fills them with disgust but think about it with out pop there would be no what ever it is you are listening to. For from what ever music is popular at the time comes the sub-genres and distantly related music that you listen to.

Oh and lastly

Hip hop-rap music was both influenced by disco and a backlash against it. According to Kurtis Blow, the early days of hip hop were characterized by divisions between fans and detractors of disco music. Hip hop had largely emerged as "a direct response to the watered down, Europeanised, disco music that permeated the airwaves", and the earliest hip hop was mainly based on hard funk loops. However, by 1979, disco instrumental loops/tracks had become the basis of much hip hop music. This genre got the name of "disco rap". Ironically, hip hop music was also a proponent in the eventual decline in disco popularity.


it began as a genre of music it can suddenly not be music on some ones whim...and with this i hope to say just because you are not personally acquainted with gangsta life style it does not mean that you can degrade their struggles and trails. The cushiony life style you know is not present through out world and some people do struggle daily to survive in a harsh world. Rap is like an escape from that the acquisition fame, money, and women is some thing desired in the community because it is some thing deigned to the vast majority. When a rapper talks about busting slugs they are giving an account of what it takes to survive in a world where you are expected to be in jail or dead by 25. But hey ignore me i mean i could not possible know what I'm talking about.

You sound like someone I've been waiting to meet for a long time. As many have stated already, chances are I'll only find crummy rap if I rely on mainstream sources, but I don't know anyone who can recommend music I'd like. I don't take well to ghetto culture, so that does limit my options, but with that in mind, do you know any artists I might enjoy hearing?

 

[BigNiceJohn]

OK, so I'm a little new here to this thread, but thought I'd chime in anyways.

There is a genre of poetry called Free Verse, which exists as a form of poetry entirely without meter, musical pattern, or rhyme. For examples, check out some works by e.e. cummings and Walt Whitman.

Free verse exists an artistic precedent... the ability to look at something and say 'this is certainly like no other poetry that existed before, but still carries artistic merit.'

To most detractors who take issue with the musicality, or occasional lack of rhyming structure in rap, I would say that music doesn't have to rhyme, sound good, and (most importantly) you don't have to understand it. Hell, I still have no idea what Yellow Submarine means. It all exists as a musical form of Free Verse.

Rap, as a genre, does have rules and conventions, which serve to make it distinct from other genres. You know a rap song when you hear one, even if you don't have a liking for the genre as a whole, you inherently know what rap is. It exists as a musical genre, same as any other. Sure, some of it sucks, but not all punk, country, metal, classical, or pop music is good either.

I was also going to try shoehorning Bill Hick's stellar Arizona Bay album as the idea that music doesn't need to rhyme or sound good, but I can't think of a decent segue. So there it is.

 

[the Dept of Science]

While it is true that opinions are subjective and noone can say that you are "wrong" for liking or disliking something in 90% of cases where I see people hating on rap, they display at least some degree of ignorance, generally crass stereotyping. If your opinion is based on false beliefs, then I can say that your beliefs are wrong and your opinions may need revising.

First of all, different genres need to be assessed on different criteria. Saying that rap is bad singing and is based around repetative beats is not only wrong, but missing the point. It would be like criticising Mozart for his lack of guitar solos. Good rap is all about flow, complex rhymes, clever word play and storytelling ability. If you think that DJing is easy or boring or "just taking someone elses songs", then look at this documentary on why you are wrong. Oh yea, and rap groups are increasingly using live bands. These guys currently work as Jimmy Fallon's house band.

Secondly, I realise, that songs primarily concerned with the issues of young, lower class black men are unlikely to strike a chord with those who frequent a videogames forum. I mean that would be like expecting Jay Z to be a big fan of Grizzly Bear. Oh wait. You can enjoy a peice of music regardless of subject matter. I don't see anyone complaining about, say, Nick Cave writing an a whole album of songs about murdering people, Big Black writing an album called "Songs About Fucking" or the Velvet Underground writing songs about taking lots of drugs. But somehow, when its in a rap song, it becomes offensive. I personally find, for example, NWA quite a refreshing change from all the angsty white guy music I listen to.
Oh yea, and I almost feel it goes without saying that nowhere near as much rap as most people claim is about "guns, bitches and bling", at least not the sort of rap that anyone actually into rap listens to. The first rap group that I got into (I'll admit, maybe 3 or 4 years ago, I would been on the side of the majority of this thread) was De La Soul, as their whole aestetic was the complete opposite to what I learned to expect from rap, with a jazz influenced sound and raps about everything from awkward first loves to surreal walks in the park, talking to animals. I sortof started at the left-field and worked my way right.
To summarise, there is a large amount of rap that is not about "guns, bitches and bling" and even if it is, that doesn't mean that its necessarily bad.

Thirdly, Sturgeons Law. Yea, there is a fairly large amount of rap which is shit. On the other hand, there is a large amount of any genre which is shit. Judging rap by 50 Cent is like judging fantasy novels by Stephanie Mayer, they may be popular (although, I don't really know anyone that listens to 50 Cent any more), but don't let them taint the genre as a whole.

Oh, and lastly, can people please stop saying that all good rap was released in the 80s/90s and since then its been crap, especially if you are going to hold up the Sugarhill Gang, MC Hammer or Vanilla Ice as your examples. Have you listened to the fish verse of Rappers Delight? I forgive you for missing it, because its about 6 minutes into that song, but its one of the most baffling things ever committed to tape; a narrative about going to a friends house and having to eat bad food out of politeness. Even though they allegedly coined the term "rap", they were by no means the first rap group. They were a largely manufactured group, to wring money out of rising rap scene. MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice released one decent song each, both of rap over barely edited samples of Superfreak and Under Pressure respectively and don't hold a candle to other rappers or groups of that era: Run DMC, Public Enemy, De La Soul, Eric B and Rakim, Beastie Boys, Boogie Down Productions, etc.
There's been plenty of good rap this side of the millenium. 5 of Metacritics Top 15 albums are rap, 10 of the top 50. And that doesn't take into account some worthy underground records that people here have recommended (Sage Francis' Personal Journals, Aesop Rock's Labour Days), but which didn't make it onto the metacritic rankings (weren't widely reviewed on initial release). While we may not have quite had something as good as say, Public Enemy's It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back, Beastie Boys' Pauls Boutique or De La Soul's 3 Feet High and Rising, we have had OutKast's Stankonia, Dizzee Rascal's Boy in da Corner, Jay Z's the Blueprint, Kanye West's Late Registration, College Dropout and My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, The Roots' Phrenology and Im sure plenty others which I have missed.

ps. "Retards attempting poetry" and "can't spell crap without rap" is not clever.

 

[Orcus The Ultimate]

(French lyrics snip)

So uh... are you going to translate those for us so we know what they're saying that's so bad? Not that I doubt you, I just don't speak French well enough to translate that on my own, and I'm curious.

okay,
1st one:

The Colons (colonials) put in us deep,
in reverse we're going to do to them,
We came to get our due,
In your streets we will let your pus flow
Get ready to expect more than one assault/attack (refering to terrorism or political violence)
Here in France, far from the atmosphere "Firecracker"
July 14 open microphone and our actions start-up ferocious
AL.I., Booba, Lunatic, Hauts de Seine, we make you bleed.

2nd:
we'll leave with their money, their blood and cloths
France is not neutral territory.
My troops are mobilized
They have their tax havens
We Should impose our places of no-rights
And if that's what they want we will arm ourselves and surround us with Khos
(i have no idea what it stands for)


i should get payed for doing translations...

 

[pulse2]

What makes me giggle is that people pretend that rap is the only music which has its generic mainstream nonsense talking artists.

No, it doesn't have the most, no its not 50% generic, no, it's not purely based on everyone trying to get out of the ghetto. Not everyone who raps came from ghettos yaknow. And yes, you can be educated and be a rapper.

The great thing about rap is even without the beats it can be performed and not sound stupid. There are great songs that can be merely sang and not sound stupid. But then theres that portion of songs that simply sound ridiculous.

So yes, you could call rap poetry, and no, it isn't crap poetry either, some of the lyrics in these raps would be far too intelligent for quite a few people to comprehend or quite understand, so of course if you talk about rap you like you'd say Eminem because he isn't rapping about anything particularly intelligent or complicated. Good rap isn't like some pop, you don't just pick a topic and sing about it all the time, quite often, you could find a good rapper knows more of his history, modern and ancient literature and the like's of shakespear and various other forms of script writing then you do, only because they want to broaden thier horizon and make thier rap seem as though it is making logical sense.

Others rap about conspiracy theories, the bible or parts of it, political controversy, freemasons and various other worldwide events and issues.

You'll find most people disregard rap just because they don't like the way it sounds, and because of that, put all of it into the same hoes and pimping category. I don't expect everyone to like it, nor do I care if people don't, but if you are going to say why you don't like it. Try to think of something more creative then "because it's all about derogatory perspectives of females and shooting".

 

[DiMono]

What makes me giggle is that people pretend that rap is the only music which has its generic mainstream nonsense talking artists.

I defy you to demonstrate that Chaccaron is nonsense.

No, it doesn't have the most, no its not 50% generic, no, it's not purely based on everyone trying to get out of the ghetto. Not everyone who raps came from ghettos yaknow. And yes, you can be educated and be a rapper.

Actually, I'm not sure if even the majority of rappers came from a ghetto any more. I kind of suspect that if someone were to do some research they'd find that most of today's rappers are from middle-class families, and just enjoy rapping. This is research that I don't have the time to do though, as I suspect it would take quite a while.

The great thing about rap is even without the beats it can be performed and not sound stupid. There are great songs that can be merely sang and not sound stupid. But then theres that portion of songs that simply sound ridiculous.

So yes, you could call rap poetry, and no, it isn't crap poetry either, some of the lyrics in these raps would be far too intelligent for quite a few people to comprehend or quite understand, so of course if you talk about rap you like you'd say Eminem because he isn't rapping about anything particularly intelligent or complicated. Good rap isn't like some pop, you don't just pick a topic and sing about it all the time, quite often, you could find a good rapper knows more of his history, modern and ancient literature and the like's of shakespear and various other forms of script writing then you do, only because they want to broaden thier horizon and make thier rap seem as though it is making logical sense.

Others rap about conspiracy theories, the bible or parts of it, political controversy, freemasons and various other worldwide events and issues.

Other than not being sure if you're taking a dig at me, I agree with this. I obviously can't speak for anyone else, but I'm drawn to music and rap that sounds different than everything else, that has its own sound and its own personality. The reason I like early Eminem is that he rapped about random things and was clearly in it to have fun, and that comes through on the CDs. I only have the first two though, so I can't speak to whether that's still the case.

 

[Irregular Joe]

In a way Rap is just Urban Folk music.

This.

Rap is certainly music, albeit one commonly stripped down to focus on the lyrics rather than the music itself.

To quote Wikipedia:
Music is an art form whose medium is sound.
Common elements of music are pitch (which governs melody and harmony), rhythm (and its associated concepts tempo, meter, and articulation), dynamics, and the sonic qualities of timbre and texture.
The word derives from Greek μουσική (mousike), "(art) of the Muses."

I'd say it counts as music, since you can have long droning ambient sounds, 1 second harsh noises, and even the silence of a room counting as music, there's no way to discount something solely on preference.

The thing is, there's plenty of good rap music as well as bad rap music.
Same thing with rock, metal, dance, classical, folk, etc..
Every genre has its good and bad artists, you just have to decide what they are individually and subjectively and go from there..

 

[Alucard832]

This isn't to shit on rap and everyone that listens to it, but to show that it simply does not fit the definition of music. There is no melody, no singing, no instruments, etc. The only instrument-like sounds form a beat, and that just doesn't cut it. Talking is not singing as any elementary school music teacher will point out. And yea, the subject matter being 90% about crime, drugs, and bitches does not help rap's case. You can be entertained by it all you want, but don't try to pass it off a music.

I would personally listen to Justin Beiber before any rap song, so I can't wait until all the kids and general public get over this whole genre.

I hate to call you ignorant or anything like that but it seems you are unaware of what singing can constitute.

singing is the act of producing musical sounds with the voice, and augments regular speech by the use of both tonality and rhythm. A person who sings is called a singer or vocalist. Singers perform music known as songs that can either be sung a cappella (without accompaniment) or accompanied by musicians and instruments ranging from a single instrumentalist to a full symphony orchestra or big band

Rapping is all about the tone of ones voice and and the rhythm in which they project a rhyme...This means they can be considered as singing...now if you listen to a rapper they don't rap how they talk do they this means their voice has been augmented to fit the background music...according to your logic a lot of metal can not be music because there is very little of what most people would consider sing. You argument is also flawed because i have never heard a rap song recorded which did not feature a single instrument...and if there is the human voice can also be considered an instrument and thus you are horribly under informed sir. lastly subject matter does not change the key fact presented above if i sang a song about fucking a unicorn with a razor dildo it would not be any less music...it would be wrong and immoral but no less music.

Maybe your opinions require more research...maybe you should do some before you post it would make you sound better informed friend...I can't wait for people to get over Hip hop becoming a popular medium for musical expression...when that day comes whoa what a site it will be

You know the difference between singing and talking, but you're in denial. You have to be lying to yourself to believe that what rappers actually do is singing. That, or you're literally tone-deaf.

 

[2ndblackjedi]

Honestly, I don't see what gives me, or anyone else for that matter, the right to say what is and what isn't music, or assign rules to what is and isn't music. Music is music, whether you enjoy it or not or whether it fits your definition or not. I don't believe anybody's opinion or definition so outweighs someone else's that they can look down on the other person and what they enjoy and say "No. That isn't music at all. It's not what I say is music, therefore you are wrong."

 

[DustyDrB]

Oh my god with the fucking rap ignorance. Actually, scratch that. It's musical ignorance in general.
Want to take count of the styles of music that were called noise by those who didn't bother to educate themselves? Just go ahead and list them all.

 

[AvitaDeva]

This isn't to shit on rap and everyone that listens to it, but to show that it simply does not fit the definition of music. There is no melody, no singing, no instruments, etc. The only instrument-like sounds form a beat, and that just doesn't cut it. Talking is not singing as any elementary school music teacher will point out. And yea, the subject matter being 90% about crime, drugs, and bitches does not help rap's case. You can be entertained by it all you want, but don't try to pass it off a music.

I would personally listen to Justin Beiber before any rap song, so I can't wait until all the kids and general public get over this whole genre.

I hate to call you ignorant or anything like that but it seems you are unaware of what singing can constitute.

singing is the act of producing musical sounds with the voice, and augments regular speech by the use of both tonality and rhythm. A person who sings is called a singer or vocalist. Singers perform music known as songs that can either be sung a cappella (without accompaniment) or accompanied by musicians and instruments ranging from a single instrumentalist to a full symphony orchestra or big band

Rapping is all about the tone of ones voice and and the rhythm in which they project a rhyme...This means they can be considered as singing...now if you listen to a rapper they don't rap how they talk do they this means their voice has been augmented to fit the background music...according to your logic a lot of metal can not be music because there is very little of what most people would consider sing. You argument is also flawed because i have never heard a rap song recorded which did not feature a single instrument...and if there is the human voice can also be considered an instrument and thus you are horribly under informed sir. lastly subject matter does not change the key fact presented above if i sang a song about fucking a unicorn with a razor dildo it would not be any less music...it would be wrong and immoral but no less music.

Maybe your opinions require more research...maybe you should do some before you post it would make you sound better informed friend...I can't wait for people to get over Hip hop becoming a popular medium for musical expression...when that day comes whoa what a site it will be

You know the difference between singing and talking, but you're in denial. You have to be lying to yourself to believe that what rappers actually do is singing. That, or you're literally tone-deaf.

Maybe you have seen rappers talking to each other the way that they rap in a song but me personally i have not seen that because it is not the way people speak. "Singing is the act of producing musical sounds with the voice, and augments regular speech by the use of both tonality and rhythm" rap has rhythm...so maybe you need to look up the definition of music before you place a comment as i had stated before because now i am unsure of if your qualified to speak about this subject.So now i ask the question are you denying rap the status of music because it's subject matter or because of it's format because yet again i have proven it's format is not a problem.

 

[AvitaDeva]

Anything people use to forcibly disassemble shitty American sedans on massive rims isn't music.

Clearly you have heard one song and you judge the medium come back with a well thought out argument and maybe your little off handed comment could be taken seriously...have you read any of the amazing arguments put out by either side likely no. Your little comment about content has convinced no one. Content does not make some thing music because therefore songs about subjects like drugs,violence,and sex could be considered not music and these can be found in other genres...these things are not exclusive to rap. comments like your help no one so maybe a bit of fore thought before your post would be better to express you under whelming idea.

 

[farscythe]

i'll go with rap is music.. might not be my music but still music
if art is still art regardless of wether its the mona lisa or some coloured cubes then music is music regardless of wether its rap or mozart

 

[BlackStar42]

Unfortunately, yes. I may hate it, but it is music. Just not very good I suppose everyone has the right to listen to what they want, but if I ever came to power it would be banned along with caravans and David Dimbleby.

 

[Minecraft-Jenny]

Dead Prez
Lil Wayne
Tech n9ne
Immortal Technique
Mos Def


FTW

 

[Beffudled Sheep]

Dead Prez
Lil Wayne
Tech n9ne
Immortal Technique
Mos Def


FTW

You forgot Saul Williams, Sage Francis, Eyedea, and (maybe) Aesop Rock.

Also by the currently accepted definition of music which has already been posted on this thread rap is music.

 

[AvitaDeva]

Clearly you have heard one song and you judge the medium come back with a well thought out argument and maybe your little off handed comment could be taken seriously...have you read any of the amazing arguments put out by either side likely no. Your little comment about content has convinced no one. Content does not make some thing music because therefore songs about subjects like drugs,violence,and sex could be considered not music and these can be found in other genres...these things are not exclusive to rap. comments like your help no one so maybe a bit of fore thought before your post would be better to express you under whelming idea.

You must be a hardcore rap fan if you go off like that because someone else voices an opinion that it isn't music.


I stand by my opinion. Noise used to vibrate 70's and 80's American sedans riding on obnoxiously oversized rims apart is not music. If you can't handle someone with an opinion that differs from yours you probably shouldn't be reading threads that ask for such opinions.


Now since I have nothing to prove to you I am not going to do a damn thing you asked me to do. My opinion is there, and it isn't changing. You don't have to change yours to match it. You're welcome to just pretend it was never posted. But do stop trying to force me to change it. I've already given rap a chance, a whole month or two of rap being the only thing I listened to, and it failed pretty damn hard.

I am a fan of art i listen to all sorts of music (my favorite artist right now is Bjork whom is certainly not a rapper) but being a rap fan is the reason why i think your comment was childish at best and closed at best and close minded at worst. First you have deemed it viable to deny the genre the title of music based off a sample of music you have heard if i were to do that with 80's rock i would be likely to assume it was horrible music about drugs and parting and disrespecting women. But then i would be doing what you are doing and that is not what this thread is about if you read what the creator of the thread was saying. He wanted to judge the structure not the content. He was asking if rap was structurally music and he did not care about the content. Which is why I implore you to read what was said in the thread about the structure so we can all stop arguing about lyrics who gives a fuck if you don't like what a particular rapper is saying. I certainly can't say i agree with every thing every rappers says but i could say that about any artist of any genre.

If you read my post a little more clearly you would realize i was not telling you to change your opinion...it does not cause me to to shit mega brick when you do not agree. What ruffles my feathers is when some one comes into a debate from left field with a silly off topic comment. Who cares if you do not like rap that's not what this thread is about it is about if rap is structurally music. Which most of the people who posted believe...now if you would like to frame your argument through the filter of some newly acquired incite then have at it this thread would be all the better if you came and posted some thing more then a one-liner about something insignificant and openly trivial. Because if you want to discuss the sociology of the ghetto and why songs have "a living good I can afford to do outlandish things to my car" focus to them i am qualified to do so i just got my degree in sociology and thus this is a topic i am well versed in and you would need three to four years of study to debate me. But this is all trivial and the matter is "is rap structurally music".

oh and one other question when you go to the club do you not dance because rap music is on?

 

[moretimethansense]

I'd argue that it's poetry with a musical beat,
so in the strictest sense? yes rap is music,
Doesn't stop most of it from being crap.

 

[Arsen]

Is it music? Yes.
Do I give two shits about it personally? No.
Why do I not give two shits about it? It doesn't sing about anything I particularly care or have interest in...