Is Square racist?

[pulse2]

I'm black, I burst out laughing when I saw that picture, plus the seriousness of the issue beneath it just made me laugh even more.

Okay, granted, Square isn't all that great at portraying other races in thier games, but they are working at it, its funny that we blacks should complain when I've seen very few games with indians or PROPER Japanese / Chinese looking characters. Japanese spend so much time Americanizing thier work, that it makes me wonder if they are less interested in making thier characters look more...like themselves, just for the sake of the character looking cool. Furthermore, Indians, Japanese, Chinese etc are rarely if ever heros in games or movies, I'd like to see more of that

For the record I know the anime characters are MEANT to be Japanese, but they always look closer to the western world then Japanese.

Thats just made me want to raise a topic.

 

[EzraPound]

a better question is are the Japanese racist, and yes they are, really most cultures are pretty racist, when it comes down to it the US is probably one of the least racist around.... for the most part

Yeah, the japanese never actually got that it's not cool to portray black dudes as these clowning people with comically large lips.
They're not racist, there's no hatred involved. Just a litte ignorant, I guess.

Values dissonance at its finest.

I'm sorry, thats just funny.

Anyway, I would say yes. But all Japanese are inherently racist.

Barret has stereotypical traits, but he isn't a stereotype. He is an environmental terrorist who lives in a bar and tries to support his adopted white daughter as much as he can. Sazh isn't really a stereotypical character either, save the 'fro and the guns, but saying Sazh is stereotypical for his afro is like saying Jacob from Mass Effect 2 is stereotypical for his big nostrils.

However, Japanese companies can be extremely ignorant of races because there aren't much black people in Japan, so they base it off of characters in movies and other forms of media.

Have you seen the "black" crows in Disney films of the 70-80s? Or any of a dozen other American cartoons from before 1990? Yeah.

I'm just not sure why you think that Square stands out from the rest of Japan (who are known world-wide as pretty damn racist). At least Square acknowledges that other races exist. They may only be familiar with those races from TV shows from the 80s, but at least it's a sort of progress.

I find it funny that when we talk about Japan, we do it in sociological terms--like, "the Japanese are culturally racist"--rather than really assessing the severity of the actual depiction, and the individuals responsible. As Bara no Hime pointed out, there's been a lot of racism in North America, too, but I don't feel like we'd just assume racism in American or Canadian games is a write-off because "Americans are racist" (not a totally surreal claim, either, given its unique racial tensions).

Judging Japanese portrayals of different peoples by American standards doesn't really make sense though. Japan doesn't exactly have a black community, now does it? So you see they aren't making fun of black people, they're depicting foreigners. In other words, they're depicting black people and white people the way they see them depicted in the media they get from America.

Uh, Japanese girls read fashion magazines that are laden with images of white, western males. But often portrayals of black people in Japanese media are grossly prejudicial. So I'd say we're not just talking about the depiction of "foreigners" at large, here.

That depiction of black people was common in slavery-era America (and later, but I'll admit I'm undereducated on this topic), which is part of why it's so distasteful to us. Coming from Japan, it doesn't really mean anything since they weren't involved in that part of American history.

Consider Dead Island's 'lynching' logo. It wasn't considered inappropriate for a European release, but the American cover was changed due to unfortunate implications. The imagery simply means something else in a different region.

It's still stereotypical and crude, but I don't think there was any racist intent behind it.

[sub]That said, Square isn't what I would call racially progressive. Or any other kind of progressive.[/sub]

I think it's a fallacy, though, to assume that racism has to be intentional rather than just culturally manifested.

 

[Asuka Soryu]

Every time Square depicts a black person, it's always in a very stereotypical manner. Sometimes are worse than others, I suppose.

Stereotyping isn't exactly racism.

If stereotyping is racist, then alot of American shows are quite racist. "Eh".

 

[Jennacide]

Racist? Not outright. But they do abuse a lot of the stereotypes and Japanese characitures like the giant lips. You can see this in countless anime and games. Even characters that aren't really black get that treatment though, like Usopp from One Piece.

 

[loc978]

One thing to keep in mind... Square's employees tend to be Japanese. Their idea of Gaijin tends to be what media portrays them as. Just as there are rampant stereotypes about the Japanese over here (which were even worse 20 years ago), there are rampant stereotypes about black and white Americans over there (which were also even worse 20 years ago).

...also, it's Tom Sawyer... so it's supposed to be exaggerated.

 

[Johnnyallstar]

Actually, what I find funny about this is the whole thing about N***** Jim. The whole point of having him named that was completely intentional to drive the purpose home.

The N word, which I cannot say, even for accuracy or explanatory sake, was a word used to dehumanize blacks in America. The whole point in Tom Sawyer of everyone calling him N***** Jim was to show that Jim was the most human character in the story, whilst the racist whites were subhuman.

Shame that people don't understand that. The school systems are censoring Tom Sawyer so they can let little kids read it, but that's completely missing the point. Even Twain himself said that it was never meant to be a children's book because it dealt with themes too complex for their limited experience to understand fully.

 

[Defense]

I find it funny that when we talk about Japan, we do it in sociological terms--like, "the Japanese are culturally racist"--rather than really assessing the severity of the actual depiction, and the individuals responsible. As Bara no Hime pointed out, there's been a lot of racism in North America, too, but I don't feel like we'd just assume racism in American or Canadian games is a write-off because "Americans are racist" (not a totally surreal claim, either, given its unique racial tensions).

In my opinion there's a difference between 'racist' and 'culturally ignorant'. I'm not saying that they're just as bad as they used to be though, because I haven't seen a "Staff Officer Black" for a while.

 

[octafish]

Anyway, I see a lot of racialized humour in American games, mostly under the guise of humour--think of Homie Rollerz, Kung Fu Chaos, Bonetown, or Shadow Warrior. Actually, I like the latter game on its own terms, and obviously the sterotyping is intended to be tongue-in-cheek, but some of it is still faintly juvenile, like a fourteen year-old's idea of what'd be funny.

I always felt a little guilty for loving Shadow Warrior so much...

 

[emeraldrafael]

Snip

Alright, lets look at this this way. Yes, Americans are racist. I cant speak for Canada, cause I dont live there, but Black men get jobs through Affirmative action, and earn less then a white man of the same job level and position. However, its not as subtle as it is in Japan.

Examples you say?
-if you're born outside Japan, you cant get Japanese citizenship. EVER!! even if you marry someone who is a natural citizen (the only way to be a citizen). While they dont just openly say, " I hate you you're not from here" thats a rather large indication, especially since the People of japan never really made a motion to change that.

-Maybe not so much this generation, but the generation before, you were looked down upon if you are married to a non Japanese citizen (and even if they are, they can still be looked down upon for not being natural. If you ARE the NJC, the family gives you a subtle scorn that is evident as you continue to live there.

-Think about all the japanese RPGs you played that featured a non Japanese Character. Black, white, red, brown, whatever colour. Ever see how they're ALWAYS stereotyped?

-Think about WW2 (not trying to enact Godfrey's Law, I swear). See how the japanese wanted EVERY Island they laid eyes on in the Pacific? Ever see how they treated the people? It was worse then slaves. Worse then dogs. Worse then DIRT! Now no, thats not a good reason to hold it against them today, but those people are still alive, and still hold that opinion.

So no, maybe not all the citizens arent racist, but the society definitely is. It cant be helped I suppose, its inbred into your skull to be like that, cause thats how you're raised. Thats actually one the good things about that Tsunami/Earthquake. Japanese on average worked till the age whre biologically its hard to have children. With this, its going to make the Japanese either:
A) Rethink their ideas on the foreigners they live with or that search them out to be citizens
B) continue on the path they were, and work themselves right out of existence as a population.

 

[EzraPound]

I'm black, I burst out laughing when I saw that picture, plus the seriousness of the issue beneath it just made me laugh even more.

Okay, granted, Square isn't all that great at portraying other races in thier games, but they are working at it, its funny that we blacks should complain when I've seen very few games with indians or PROPER Japanese / Chinese looking characters. Japanese spend so much time Americanizing thier work, that it makes me wonder if they are less interested in making thier characters look more...like themselves, just for the sake of the character looking cool. Furthermore, Indians, Japanese, Chinese etc are rarely if ever heros in games or movies, I'd like to see more of that

For the record I know the anime characters are MEANT to be Japanese, but they always look closer to the western world then Japanese.

Thats just made me want to raise a topic.

It's a good point, yeah--as much as you'll find Japanese works that seem prejudicial towards blacks, a lot of their own media seems to fetishize western concepts of beauty and cultural conceits. This trend, I would guess, extends back to the late nineteenth century, when Japan began to idealize western economic and technological progress and to pride itself on being the sole Asian nation capable of achieving industrialization, etc.; a self-perception that paved way for some of the hideous abuses of World War II.

Actually, what I find funny about this is the whole thing about N***** Jim. The whole point of having him named that was completely intentional to drive the purpose home.

The N word, which I cannot say, even for accuracy or explanatory sake, was a word used to dehumanize blacks in America. The whole point in Tom Sawyer of everyone calling him N***** Jim was to show that Jim was the most human character in the story, whilst the racist whites were subhuman.

Shame that people don't understand that. The school systems are censoring Tom Sawyer so they can let little kids read it, but that's completely missing the point. Even Twain himself said that it was never meant to be a children's book because it dealt with themes too complex for their limited experience to understand fully.

Kind of funny that an anti-racist author (or at least anti-slavery author) had an exaggerated racial caricature incorporated into Square's depiction of one of his books, isn't it?

I find it funny that when we talk about Japan, we do it in sociological terms--like, "the Japanese are culturally racist"--rather than really assessing the severity of the actual depiction, and the individuals responsible. As Bara no Hime pointed out, there's been a lot of racism in North America, too, but I don't feel like we'd just assume racism in American or Canadian games is a write-off because "Americans are racist" (not a totally surreal claim, either, given its unique racial tensions).

In my opinion there's a difference between 'racist' and 'culturally ignorant'. I'm not saying that they're just as bad as they used to be though, because I haven't seen a "Staff Officer Black" for a while.

You wouldn't want the cultural explanation to just be an easy excuse, though.

 

[Monkfish Acc.]

I find it funny that when we talk about Japan, we do it in sociological terms--like, "the Japanese are culturally racist"--rather than really assessing the severity of the actual depiction, and the individuals responsible. As Bara no Hime pointed out, there's been a lot of racism in North America, too, but I don't feel like we'd just assume racism in American or Canadian games is a write-off because "Americans are racist" (not a totally surreal claim, either, given its unique racial tensions).

... Who said japanese culture was racist?
Japan doesn't have a PROBLEM with black dudes. They don't, as a whole, believe one race is inherently better than any other. Sure, they come out with these ridiculously offensive caricatures, but in that culture, it's totally okay. It's a different set of values, not racism.

Square didn't create this ridiculous image purely to be dicks. They just thought it was funny and it never occured to them that it might not be cool because their country's culture says it's fine. If an American company did this, coming from a culture that DOESN'T accept it, then yes, they'd be totally racist. They know what they're doing and they did it anyway. That's some pretty malicious intent.

Seriously, people need to stop tossing around the word "racism" like it's cheap fucking cigars. It HAS a clearly defined meaning, you know. Most of what people call racism is bigotry, discrimination, or just plain considered offensive.

Is what Square made offensive? Sure, to some people! It certainly bothered you, after all. But it is not made to portray black people as lesser than anyone else. So it isn't racist.

 

[EzraPound]

I find it funny that when we talk about Japan, we do it in sociological terms--like, "the Japanese are culturally racist"--rather than really assessing the severity of the actual depiction, and the individuals responsible. As Bara no Hime pointed out, there's been a lot of racism in North America, too, but I don't feel like we'd just assume racism in American or Canadian games is a write-off because "Americans are racist" (not a totally surreal claim, either, given its unique racial tensions).

... Who said japanese culture was racist?
Japan doesn't have a PROBLEM with black dudes. They don't, as a whole, believe one race is inherently better than any other. Sure, they come out with these ridiculously offensive caricatures, but in that culture, it's totally okay. It's a different set of values, not racism.

Square didn't create this ridiculous image purely to be dicks. They just thought it was funny and it never occured to them that it might not be cool because their country's culture says it's fine. If an American company did this, coming from a culture that DOESN'T accept it, then yes, they'd be totally racist. They know what they're doing and they did it anyway. That's some pretty malicious intent.

Seriously, people need to stop tossing around the word "racism" like it's cheap fucking cigars. It HAS a clearly defined meaning, you know. Most of what people call racism is bigotry, discrimination, or just plain considered offensive.

Is what Square made offensive? Sure, to some people! It certainly bothered you, after all. But it is not made to portray black people as lesser than anyone else. So it isn't racist.

So it's okay to be racist as long as the culture you're in says it's okay to be racist?

Your definition of racism is based on wishy-washy relativism. I'm pretty sure slave-owners weren't intending to be "malicious", just to make money in a way that was basically deemed socially acceptable. In the same way, it's possible to be racist even just by manifesting social prejudices that pervade your environment. Again, by your definition it seems like people can be racist, but groups of people can't.

 

[EzraPound]

Uh, Japanese girls read fashion magazines that are laden with images of white, western males. But often portrayals of black people in Japanese media are grossly prejudicial.

As someone presently in Japan, I have to strongly disagree with this claim. I see no evidence that portrayals of black people in Japanese media are "grossly prejudicial" at any significant frequency, let alone any more frequently than depictions of any other non-Japanese ethnic group. A handsome, young professional black man is the frequent star of commercials for Japan's top cell phone company. Another black man made huge waves a couple years ago by singing traditional enka music. Things related to what Japanese people perceive as being black (hip hop/reggae/rap) have been extremely popular. On mixi (Japanese answer to Facebook) there are many, many communities dedicated to topics like, "I love black fashion!" or "Black hair is beautiful!" (the latter referring not to the color but the hair of ethnically black people.

I'm just basing that on a few things I've seen, so it may be unfair ("often" here being relative). You make an interesting point, anyway.

 

[lacktheknack]

I burst into enormous peals of laughter, nearly fell out of my chair, squeezed out tears, hurt my lungs and woke up my family.

Thank you, sir Ma'am. Thank you very much for that picture. I haven't laughed that hard in a long while.

 

[Mar451]

To quote Yahtzee

"They're not evil, just idiots."

 

[Korten12]

Every time Square depicts a black person, it's always in a very stereotypical manner. Sometimes are worse than others, I suppose.

Stereotyping isn't exactly racism.

Sahz from FF13 didn't really seem sterotyping, maybe the hair but overall not really.

 

[WinterOrbit]

Because this thread isn't frivolous enough:

 

[00slash00]

oh..my..god....
and i thought mr. popo, in dragon ball z, was bad. anyway, i dont think theres any true hatred behind that representation so i dont think id call it racist. not particularly classy though either. i mean, the black guy in final fantasy 13 was probably the only likable character in the game

 

[13lackfriday]

There was this whole incident over the Pokemon Jinx because a black activist author thought her face was a racist caricature, and actually had episodes containing her taken off the air.

I think the Japanese were actually in the right there: they had a creative vision that some overly reactionary person decided to take offense at.

 

[Monkfish Acc.]

So it's okay to be racist as long as the culture you're in says it's okay to be racist?

Your definition of racism is based on wishy-washy relativism. I'm pretty sure slave-owners weren't intending to be "malicious", just to make money in a way that was basically deemed socially acceptable. In the same way, it's possible to be racist even just by manifesting social prejudices that pervade your environment. Again, by your definition it seems like people can be racist, but groups of people can't.

No. Okay. I'm saying it wrong.
Are they portraying black people as stupid or evil? Are they saying black guys are lesser in some way? No, they're not. They're using a set of stereotypical physical characteristics that are only offensive in the west.

Black people DO have bigger lips and darker skin. It's racist to caricaturise those features over here because it is KNOWN as offensive and is done deliberately to insult. Over there, there is no insult intended, it's just what it is. A harmless caricature.

If they made him and every other black character a violent backwater idiot, it would be racism. If the whole country said it was okay to make him and every other black character a violent backwater idiot, it would be a culture of racism and, while wrong, there isn't much you can do about it.

Ugh, I'm probably still saying it wrong. I'm really fucking tired, okay. The point I'm trying to make is the caricature itself isn't racist. The history and intent behind it is. And that history and intent isn't prevalent over there

Or something.