Is this negative "nice guy" stereotype actually a thing?

[FieryTrainwreck]

I'm coming to this conversation fairly late, but I think the most important thing to remember about inter-gender dynamics is this: always pay attention to context and perspective because they will often determine how people view these issues. A girl might think a particular "nice guy" is an entitled creep. A guy might think a girl is a selfish user. "Surprisingly", they both might be talking about the exact same situation, and there's a decent chance they might both be right. Even an appeal to third party observation typically solves nothing; there are plenty of people on both sides of such debates, all of them armed with powerful personal anecdotes and/or "statistics" aimed at demonstrating, unequivocally, the rightness of their side.

For the most part, it's a bunch of tricky alternate language deployed in an attempt to dress-up the age-old conflicts and hurt feelings that arise whenever and wherever human courtship rears its head. Despite the best wishes of many, and the explicit demands of so many online dating profiles, romantic entanglements frequently involve drama. That drama manifests in nuanced and multifaceted fashions, and the notion that we can somehow crystallize such interactions into digestible little bits of wisdom and custom is ridiculous.

If, however, we're going to dive headlong into these kinds of discussions, we should at least be methodical and respectful of both sides. When a gal finds out all of the affection she'd been soaking up was, in fact, some sort of bargain for her intimacy, she feels mislead. She's logically upset, yes, but might she also be indulging in overly reductive reasoning? If you want to head down the road of distilling/dividing human behavior into two distinct camps, "the stuff we do for free" and "the stuff we do for exchange", I've got some bad news for you: there's only one camp. So where do we draw the line between acceptable versus unacceptable "exchange-based" behavior? Who draws it?

You know who else feels mislead? The guy who internalized pretty much a life-time of media and real-life women telling him how to attract a woman (be sweet, be her friend, be asexual, etc.) only to find out none of that amounts to a damn thing. The only deciding factor is the chemistry of raw attraction, and that can never be negotiated or manipulated - not in the way society has programmed young men to behave. So those young men, upon failing, become confused and upset as well - especially when so much of what they contributed to the "courtship" involved valuable commodities like time, opportunity, and money. It should be noted: there are more than a few women out there who will gladly suck up these commodities knowing they can't/won't reciprocate the deeper feelings that are (almost always) obvious.

There's also the male/female divide when considering things like "relationship equity". By in large, men believe in it. It's a very deductive principle. It's also completely wrong. There aren't, unfortunately, many sources telling people such things. Probably because a lot of groups directly profit from the continued wayward fumblings of so many confused mislead people.

Anyways, I've rambled for quite a bit. If only one thing can stand out, though, it should be this: these things are ridiculously complex with a ton of variables related to context and, often times, the individual. Anyone who buys into the sweeping generalizations of this MRA blog or that Social Justice tumblr is doing everyone, including themselves, a disservice.

 

[Branindain]

In my time out there in the wild before I got married, I was a shoulder to cry on for quite a few girls who chose their partners poorly. Most of them I wasn't even attracted to (although granted, the final one is now my wife). I find it a little sad that people would look at my attempts to help people and figure I was a creep with an agenda, but that's what the problem people in society do I guess, they make everyone suspicious of one another.

The "nice guy" generalisation isn't the one that bothers me the most, though. It's the logical follow-through which I've read in parts of this topic which claims that "assholes are better because they're honest". Whether this is an attempt to logically justify someone's innate preferences, I don't know, but it doesn't mesh with my experience in the slightest. I've seen so many forward, confident, attractive guys who clearly weren't showing their true intentions at all because they slowly turned into something much darker once they thought they had their partner "locked in". The most extreme example being my wife, who we had to hustle clandestinely to a safe house while her abusive first husband was out for the day. He was the "good" kind of asshole from the beginning but he didn't stay that way, and he's far from the only one I've known.

All I'm really saying is, remember that generalisations are just that.

 

[00slash00]

They aren't talking about considerate human beings, they're talking about the kind of people who constantly complain about the friend zone and who pretend to be a caring friend to someone, just because they hope it will lead to the woman liking them in a romantic sense

 

[Riot3000]

You want to get girls? Its really not that difficult. Be nice, treat them like people, and don't wait until they are dating someone to ask them out.

Wait, I thought that approach was the very reason we were having this discussion to begin with.


OT:

I may be repeating someone else here, but has anyone ever considered the possibility that people in general have no fucking clue what they want? It's like that one Jimquisition episode with the coffee analogy. Women say they want a "nice guy" who "takes care of them" and "treats them right" only because that's what they think they want. Then a guy comes along who takes them at their word and does all of those things in the hopes of getting with them only to be called a creep, asshole, fake, liberal, communist, neo-nazi, fascist, chauvinist, etc. etc. How about we just chalk this up to miscommunication.

Anyone? Anyone?!

I think all of this is just one big miscommunication but people just won't let it go. Jilted guys are a magnet for easy page views whether is uber jezebel "feminist", the "alpha" pua bile or anything in between the nice guy thing as gotten out of hand. I mean making an absolute out of some so vague and varied. I mean everyone wants be to believe we are so self aware and everything but nothing of this nature is so cut and dry. The whole nice guy thing is just another platitude dump at the end of day.

So I am in agreement to Hades over here.

 

[Blow_Pop]

Genuine nice guys are hard to find. I have a few of them as friends.

So, nice guys complaining about being friendzoned are sexist assholes. Are they assholes because they wanted to be more than friends with you?


This is why we need to keep in mind that the internet is a grossly distorted echo chamber that has no basis in reality.

We are criticizing people who are lamenting about unrequited love. Who haven't had a crush on someone and felt heartbroken that the other person didn't feel the same way?

Seriously, I think the whole demonization of "Nice Guys" and "Friendzone" is just an excuse to rage against other people while trying to have the moral high ground to do so.

If I remember correctly, the whole "nice guy" demonization started with a blog on Jezebel. It has been used ever since as a justification to hate all men. The aggressive jerks and now nice guys.

When they are the type of "nice guy" who:
a) basically did the whole "if I put enough niceness tokens into this girl she has to owe me sex/a relationship" thing
b) all they do is complain about being friendzoned but either don't actually try to find a relationship with someone who wants a relationship with them or turn down people who want relationships with them because they are intent on making themselves out to be victims
c) try and demonise someone for not having a romantic interest in them especially if they've never expressed their romantic interest towards the other person (because yes, some people really are THAT dense at times)
d) think that buying dinner/a movie/a drink for someone they are attracted to means that that person owes them sex/a relationship

then yes. And unfortunately, I've met A LOT of guys with one or all of those mentalities. Fuck. I went on a date with a guy where we went dutch for dinner and because he insisted on picking me up instead of letting me drive myself he insisted that I owed him sex for that. And I'm sorry but offering/insisting on paying/doing something for someone else regardless of your gender or theirs does not mean that person owes you anything but a thank you. I have guy friends who are nice guys (some of them assholes at times but then I'm a huge asshole anyway so I can't demonise them for something I am and proud of) who absolutely refuse to let me pay for things unless I can manage to wrangle an agreement out of them that if they let me pay for the both of us this time they can pay the next time (in fact, I have to make that agreement with some of my female friends too) otherwise I get my wallet confiscated until it's time to depart. All they expect is a thank you. And I know some of them it is there way of thanking me for coming and hanging out with them and having fun. I don't always like it but I deal with it.

What's also happening with guys who complain about being friendzoned is that they are invalidating those of us who can't just get into a romantic relationship with someone without being good friends with them first. I am one of those types of people. If I have no intellectual and friendship connection with someone, the most I can do is just admire them. Hell, just to have a one night stand with someone I have to have an intellectual connection with the other person. Some of us are just wired that way. And when we hear the guy we're working our way up to possibly dating start complaining that he does all these nice things for us and we won't date him it's kind of a huge turn off. Even when they know that we have to have that connection with them. I'm fairly honest and blunt about shit like that. Especially if I sense someone is interested in me. I give them that heads up. Do I have to? No. But I do it anyway. Because I'd rather know something like that then not. And I don't like playing games with someone and leading them on.

It's not the problem of people having a crush on someone and then finding out they don't feel the same way. Yeah. It hurts like a *****. But going and demonising the other person because they don't have the same feelings as you but honestly like you as a friend? THAT is the problem.

And of course none of this has any basis in reality. It's not like any of us actually go through this in our lives.../sarcasm

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

You want to get girls? Its really not that difficult. Be nice, treat them like people, and don't wait until they are dating someone to ask them out.

Wait, I thought that approach was the very reason we were having this discussion to begin with.


OT:

I may be repeating someone else here, but has anyone ever considered the possibility that people in general have no fucking clue what they want? It's like that one Jimquisition episode with the coffee analogy. Women say they want a "nice guy" who "takes care of them" and "treats them right" only because that's what they think they want. Then a guy comes along who takes them at their word and does all of those things in the hopes of getting with them only to be called a creep, asshole, fake, liberal, communist, neo-nazi, fascist, chauvinist, etc. etc. How about we just chalk this up to miscommunication.

Anyone? Anyone?!

I think all of this is just one big miscommunication but people just won't let it go. Jilted guys are a magnet for easy page views whether is uber jezebel "feminist", the "alpha" pua bile or anything in between the nice guy thing as gotten out of hand. I mean making an absolute out of some so vague and varied. I mean everyone wants be to believe we are so self aware and everything but nothing of this nature is so cut and dry. The whole nice guy thing is just another platitude dump at the end of day.

So I am in agreement to Hades over here.

It was actually realizing this that pulled me out of my "nice guy" phase. What got me to realize it was a girl who told me "I'm not ready for a relationship right now," who then turned right around and showed by her actions that what she meant was "I'm not interested in a relationship with you." If she'd just said that in the first place, I'd have been sad, but I'd have moved on with much less heartbreak on my side, and awkwardness all around. But then I also would have delayed an important life lesson even farther, so it's a double edged sword.

What we have here is a two fold problem: boys[footnote]"boys" and "girls" are used throughout here because this is a problem more for teenagers to early, early 20 somethings than it is for grown adults.[/footnote] are socialized to believe in the same kind of courtly love stuff that has been a part of Western literature (but not reality) since the middle ages, while girls are socialized to be coy, and to to let guys down easy [footnote]In some cases as some sort of twisted anti-rape advice -- don't risk upsetting the man beast, lest he show his true monstrous nature and rape you.[/footnote] -- like the blushing princesses in those same stories. We used to call them romances[footnote]A Romance in the medieval sense is primarily a story about a chivalrous knight, like El Cid or Orlando Furioso, and like what was parodied in Don Quixote. The word boiled down to its modern sense because they tended to have modern-sense-of-the-word romances along the way, and originated the whole courtly love thing.[/footnote], now we call them romantic comedies, but it's the same thing.

The "nice guys" are just guys who lack the real world experience to know just how much of a literal fairy tale that is. Mocking them won't help them, it just makes things worse. I wish I could say explaining it to them would help, but some things you just have to figure out the hard way.

 

[Riot3000]

You want to get girls? Its really not that difficult. Be nice, treat them like people, and don't wait until they are dating someone to ask them out.

Wait, I thought that approach was the very reason we were having this discussion to begin with.


OT:

I may be repeating someone else here, but has anyone ever considered the possibility that people in general have no fucking clue what they want? It's like that one Jimquisition episode with the coffee analogy. Women say they want a "nice guy" who "takes care of them" and "treats them right" only because that's what they think they want. Then a guy comes along who takes them at their word and does all of those things in the hopes of getting with them only to be called a creep, asshole, fake, liberal, communist, neo-nazi, fascist, chauvinist, etc. etc. How about we just chalk this up to miscommunication.

Anyone? Anyone?!

I think all of this is just one big miscommunication but people just won't let it go. Jilted guys are a magnet for easy page views whether is uber jezebel "feminist", the "alpha" pua bile or anything in between the nice guy thing as gotten out of hand. I mean making an absolute out of some so vague and varied. I mean everyone wants be to believe we are so self aware and everything but nothing of this nature is so cut and dry. The whole nice guy thing is just another platitude dump at the end of day.

So I am in agreement to Hades over here.

It was actually realizing this that pulled me out of my "nice guy" phase. What got me to realize it was a girl who told me "I'm not ready for a relationship right now," who then turned right around and showed by her actions that what she meant was "I'm not interested in a relationship with you." If she'd just said that in the first place, I'd have been sad, but I'd have moved on with much less heartbreak on my side, and awkwardness all around. But then I also would have delayed an important life lesson even farther, so it's a double edged sword.

What we have here is a two fold problem: boys[footnote]"boys" and "girls" are used throughout here because this is a problem more for teenagers to early, early 20 somethings than it is for grown adults.[/footnote] are socialized to believe in the same kind of courtly love stuff that has been a part of Western literature (but not reality) since the middle ages, while girls are socialized to be coy, and to to let guys down easy [footnote]In some cases as some sort of twisted anti-rape advice -- don't risk upsetting the man beast, lest he show his true monstrous nature and rape you.[/footnote] -- like the blushing princesses in those same stories. We used to call them romances[footnote]A Romance in the medieval sense is primarily a story about a chivalrous knight, like El Cid or Orlando Furioso, and like what was parodied in Don Quixote. The word boiled down to its modern sense because they tended to have modern-sense-of-the-word romances along the way, and originated the whole courtly love thing.[/footnote], now we call them romantic comedies, but it's the same thing.

The "nice guys" are just guys who lack the real world experience to know just how much of a literal fairy tale that is. Mocking them won't help them, it just makes things worse. I wish I could say explaining it to them would help, but some things you just have to figure out the hard way.

I think you are giving too much credit to fairy tales and disney. Calling the "nice guy" thing a phase is giving it some sort of legitimacy than it really needs. Not trying to knock your experience mind you I do not mean for it to come off that way.

The way I see it the "nice guy" thing is nothing new men have always been told to forward and assertive and all that jazz when it comes to dating. The method these guys use is a method most gals use when trying to get to know someone. So really its just a overblown way to keep the status quo in check.

But that is just my view of it I mean going into this with any sort of absolutism is really just an exercise in pretention.

 

[Something Amyss]

Now here's the first contradiction. Such a person would not believe their actions to be a "ticket" to anybody's bed. After all, if they truly are considerate, they know full well that the other person has their own feelings and preferences.

Yes, but the key to the whole things comes from the lines you quoted. Note the use of "so-called" right in the sentence. That really should have been a hint that it wasn't, in fact, talking about guys who are good for goodness' sake. It's sort of like when someone talks about someone being a so-called "patriot." it doesn't mean that nobody wo says they're a patriot doesn't love their country, but that you're casting doubt on a specific group. Or so-called anything else. It's often fairly easy to tell the difference, too. People who describe themselves as nice, especially when tirading against X for not doing Y. This doesn't just apply to men looking for women, or even just to men. A good rule of thumb is to raise some red flags the minute someone volunteers to describe themselves as nice. However, we're talking about the "Nice Guy" stereotype, so that's my focus.

So yes, it's option 2. There are generally good people out there who do good things for good reasons. They're not the guys who fit into the fedora stereotype. There's a group of people who tend to think, act, or speak as though being nice is a means to an end and nothing more. In this case, it's a means to getting a girl and/or laid. Some of these guys might even think they're being legitimately nice, but their behaviour is only nice to a certain point. When they don't get what they want or feel they are owed, they can do anything from whining about the "friend zone" to shaming to acting downright abusive. And none of those things are particularly nice (some are better than others, obviously).

It may not be entirely their fault. Society has set up expectations that if you do X/Y/Z, you get A/B/C. This doesn't just apply to women, but some otherwise decent guys can turn into utter assholes when the female slot machine doesn't come up "jackpot." Society does this a lot, but it's rarely as obvious or even as prevalent as this case.

And of course women like good looking men - are they supposed to chase guys they aren't attracted to?

Why, that is just absurd! How dare women be attracted to attractive people!

I read an article on Cracked.com a few years back that talks about why the whole "nice guy" thing doesn't work. The long and short of it is that "nice" is something you are expected to be: it's not particularly difficult, or requires too much effort. Especially when courting a girl, who has hundreds of guys being nice to her every day, except some of them have something extra to offer: one guy is nice, but he also has a PhD and teaches high-level math at the university, or this other guy is nice, but can bench press his own weight and would look nice with his arm draped around her. Basically, saying "I'm a nice guy" is the baseline. It's the bare minimum of what's expected if you want to exist in a civilized world.

This is part of why I'm baffled by the "Nice Guy" thing in the first place. Nice is what I expect out of people, and what I assume they expect out of me. Nice should, at the very least, be the default. And yet you get people complaining about not getting what they want simply because they're (self-described) nice people. Now, admittedly, I think nice people should be treated well, but people are people and just being nice isn't even a guarantee someone will like you, let alone love you or want you in that way. And certainly, nobody deserves what they want against the will of the person they want it from, nice or otherwise.

 

[Something Amyss]

So, nice guys complaining about being friendzoned are sexist assholes. Are they assholes because they wanted to be more than friends with you?

The whole concept of "the friend zone" is needlessly presumptuous. The reason it's demonised is that it's ridiculous and more than a bit childish. But I think you missed a good chunk of what Blow_Pop said.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

You want to get girls? Its really not that difficult. Be nice, treat them like people, and don't wait until they are dating someone to ask them out.

Wait, I thought that approach was the very reason we were having this discussion to begin with.


OT:

I may be repeating someone else here, but has anyone ever considered the possibility that people in general have no fucking clue what they want? It's like that one Jimquisition episode with the coffee analogy. Women say they want a "nice guy" who "takes care of them" and "treats them right" only because that's what they think they want. Then a guy comes along who takes them at their word and does all of those things in the hopes of getting with them only to be called a creep, asshole, fake, liberal, communist, neo-nazi, fascist, chauvinist, etc. etc. How about we just chalk this up to miscommunication.

Anyone? Anyone?!

I think all of this is just one big miscommunication but people just won't let it go. Jilted guys are a magnet for easy page views whether is uber jezebel "feminist", the "alpha" pua bile or anything in between the nice guy thing as gotten out of hand. I mean making an absolute out of some so vague and varied. I mean everyone wants be to believe we are so self aware and everything but nothing of this nature is so cut and dry. The whole nice guy thing is just another platitude dump at the end of day.

So I am in agreement to Hades over here.

It was actually realizing this that pulled me out of my "nice guy" phase. What got me to realize it was a girl who told me "I'm not ready for a relationship right now," who then turned right around and showed by her actions that what she meant was "I'm not interested in a relationship with you." If she'd just said that in the first place, I'd have been sad, but I'd have moved on with much less heartbreak on my side, and awkwardness all around. But then I also would have delayed an important life lesson even farther, so it's a double edged sword.

What we have here is a two fold problem: boys[footnote]"boys" and "girls" are used throughout here because this is a problem more for teenagers to early, early 20 somethings than it is for grown adults.[/footnote] are socialized to believe in the same kind of courtly love stuff that has been a part of Western literature (but not reality) since the middle ages, while girls are socialized to be coy, and to to let guys down easy [footnote]In some cases as some sort of twisted anti-rape advice -- don't risk upsetting the man beast, lest he show his true monstrous nature and rape you.[/footnote] -- like the blushing princesses in those same stories. We used to call them romances[footnote]A Romance in the medieval sense is primarily a story about a chivalrous knight, like El Cid or Orlando Furioso, and like what was parodied in Don Quixote. The word boiled down to its modern sense because they tended to have modern-sense-of-the-word romances along the way, and originated the whole courtly love thing.[/footnote], now we call them romantic comedies, but it's the same thing.

The "nice guys" are just guys who lack the real world experience to know just how much of a literal fairy tale that is. Mocking them won't help them, it just makes things worse. I wish I could say explaining it to them would help, but some things you just have to figure out the hard way.

I think you are giving too much credit to fairy tales and disney. Calling the "nice guy" thing a phase is giving it some sort of legitimacy than it really needs. Not trying to knock your experience mind you I do not mean for it to come off that way.

The way I see it the "nice guy" thing is nothing new men have always been told to forward and assertive and all that jazz when it comes to dating. The method these guys use is a method most gals use when trying to get to know someone. So really its just a overblown way to keep the status quo in check.

But that is just my view of it I mean going into this with any sort of absolutism is really just an exercise in pretention.

Less Disney (although it's a part of it), more 16 Candles, Pretty in Pink, Pretty Woman, Love Actually, Pride and Prejudice, 13 Going on 30, Friends, How I Met Your Mother, The Big Bang Theory, Romeo and Juliet, basically every fictional romance that's not from an action movie ever, and depending on how you take the concept, some action movies[footnote]for example: Han Solo and Princess Leia. Hated each other, until they really got to know each other. That's the core of every "nice guy's" fantasy about what a relationship should be: it's not what's on the outside that matters, it's what's on the inside.[/footnote], for that matter. There tends to be an aspect of "why would I ask someone out when I don't know what she's like on the inside?" to it, coming from people who either don't realize that's literally what dating is for, or who do understand it, but still think it's dumb to start out looking for that kind of relationship, instead of letting them grow out of a genuine friendship. People on the internet call these guys "nice guys." They may even call themselves that today, I wouldn't know. Back when I was in high school, they called themselves "hopeless romantics."

 

[Riot3000]

You want to get girls? Its really not that difficult. Be nice, treat them like people, and don't wait until they are dating someone to ask them out.

Wait, I thought that approach was the very reason we were having this discussion to begin with.


OT:

I may be repeating someone else here, but has anyone ever considered the possibility that people in general have no fucking clue what they want? It's like that one Jimquisition episode with the coffee analogy. Women say they want a "nice guy" who "takes care of them" and "treats them right" only because that's what they think they want. Then a guy comes along who takes them at their word and does all of those things in the hopes of getting with them only to be called a creep, asshole, fake, liberal, communist, neo-nazi, fascist, chauvinist, etc. etc. How about we just chalk this up to miscommunication.

Anyone? Anyone?!

I think all of this is just one big miscommunication but people just won't let it go. Jilted guys are a magnet for easy page views whether is uber jezebel "feminist", the "alpha" pua bile or anything in between the nice guy thing as gotten out of hand. I mean making an absolute out of some so vague and varied. I mean everyone wants be to believe we are so self aware and everything but nothing of this nature is so cut and dry. The whole nice guy thing is just another platitude dump at the end of day.

So I am in agreement to Hades over here.

It was actually realizing this that pulled me out of my "nice guy" phase. What got me to realize it was a girl who told me "I'm not ready for a relationship right now," who then turned right around and showed by her actions that what she meant was "I'm not interested in a relationship with you." If she'd just said that in the first place, I'd have been sad, but I'd have moved on with much less heartbreak on my side, and awkwardness all around. But then I also would have delayed an important life lesson even farther, so it's a double edged sword.

What we have here is a two fold problem: boys[footnote]"boys" and "girls" are used throughout here because this is a problem more for teenagers to early, early 20 somethings than it is for grown adults.[/footnote] are socialized to believe in the same kind of courtly love stuff that has been a part of Western literature (but not reality) since the middle ages, while girls are socialized to be coy, and to to let guys down easy [footnote]In some cases as some sort of twisted anti-rape advice -- don't risk upsetting the man beast, lest he show his true monstrous nature and rape you.[/footnote] -- like the blushing princesses in those same stories. We used to call them romances[footnote]A Romance in the medieval sense is primarily a story about a chivalrous knight, like El Cid or Orlando Furioso, and like what was parodied in Don Quixote. The word boiled down to its modern sense because they tended to have modern-sense-of-the-word romances along the way, and originated the whole courtly love thing.[/footnote], now we call them romantic comedies, but it's the same thing.

The "nice guys" are just guys who lack the real world experience to know just how much of a literal fairy tale that is. Mocking them won't help them, it just makes things worse. I wish I could say explaining it to them would help, but some things you just have to figure out the hard way.

I think you are giving too much credit to fairy tales and disney. Calling the "nice guy" thing a phase is giving it some sort of legitimacy than it really needs. Not trying to knock your experience mind you I do not mean for it to come off that way.

The way I see it the "nice guy" thing is nothing new men have always been told to forward and assertive and all that jazz when it comes to dating. The method these guys use is a method most gals use when trying to get to know someone. So really its just a overblown way to keep the status quo in check.

But that is just my view of it I mean going into this with any sort of absolutism is really just an exercise in pretention.

Less Disney (although it's a part of it), more 16 Candles, Pretty in Pink, Pretty Woman, Love Actually, Pride and Prejudice, 13 Going on 30, Friends, How I Met Your Mother, The Big Bang Theory, Romeo and Juliet, basically every fictional romance that's not from an action movie ever, and depending on how you take the concept, some action movies[footnote]for example: Han Solo and Princess Leia. Hated each other, until they really got to know each other. That's the core of every "nice guy's" fantasy about what a relationship should be: it's not what's on the outside that matters, it's what's on the inside.[/footnote], for that matter. There tends to be an aspect of "why would I ask someone out when I don't know what she's like on the inside?" to it, coming from people who either don't realize that's literally what dating is for, or who do understand it, but still think it's dumb to start out looking for that kind of relationship, instead of letting them grow out of a genuine friendship. People on the internet call these guys "nice guys." They may even call themselves that today, I wouldn't know. Back when I was in high school, they called themselves "hopeless romantics."

I think you are just taking this way to off I mean do really know what is there fantasy? I mean most of those examples are "chick flicks" directed towards a female audience. I think it a bit of a huge jump of the gun to assume a bunch of young men are watching and getting the wrong idea. I still think its just overblown topic for endless pretention. I mean I remember people dating and people warming up to their friends then going out and nothing was ever given a second glance. Only on the net does the dating process becomes this anal rentantive monster where there is no variation to the process involved.

If you see it as all these things as the reason cool but I am sticking to the overblown way to keep the status quo in check from my view.

 

[Riot3000]

So, nice guys complaining about being friendzoned are sexist assholes. Are they assholes because they wanted to be more than friends with you?

The whole concept of "the friend zone" is needlessly presumptuous. The reason it's demonised is that it's ridiculous and more than a bit childish. But I think you missed a good chunk of what Blow_Pop said.

Demonizing the friend zone is just as childish as the people who take it too serious if not more most of the time. Two sides of the same coin.

I mean we are really going to call the friend zone presumptuous but constantly bash the "nice guy" boogieman into the ground with endless platitudes?

Between blowpops description and Kissingsunlight I lean more towards sunlight all this is just one big echo chamber of moral high ground.

 

[greatcheezer2021]

nice guys. i think they are just nice. tho there are many things to consider that make up a decent human-fucking-being.

people say im nice. i say im generous. i can be an ass and make an ass of myself and others too but i dont want to be a jerk. or at least i dont think i am a jerk, tho sometimes maybe i can come off as a unintentional jerk because other people are jerks. perhaps people confuse honesty for politeness. which is lumped into being nice thanks to the stupid ones.

i like sex, but i dont want to pressure females into sex. i've found that no-one wants to be pressured into anything they are against, even if just a little. to appreciate sex, you've got to do alot more than just being nice. but then i dont just want to sex any female stranger who i think is attractive. or god-forbid, any female stranger attracted to me. more often i find those people are warped because of the drugs i like. more often i find, i too, am warped because of the drugs i like. sometimes i just want to be held and talk about the great mystery, known as life.

there are two sides to everything. however as humans, being able to perceive in multiple dimensions, there are a bunch of fracking perspectives, sides, and never ending conditions all compressed into a great, invisible, fractal we have to face with ourselves, and god-fucking-forbid with each-six-fucking-billion-others. ultimately it will be a great struggle boiled down to two sides, because of 2D thinking, 2 genders, 2 eyes and 2 brain hemispheres unable to grasp the concept that has grown into some great unseen terror in each-and-every-one-of-our-own-futures. thank christ even tho we still have horrible things and horrible people doing horrible acts onto some few remaining good people, those few still have the 2 reproductive organs, 2 arms, 2 legs and 2 ears to still make 1+1=999.

i understand this whole, jerk-ass awful misunderstood "nice-guy" fiasco. i really do. but people have eloquently explained it much better than i have the time to explain in a few short words. in short i blame society. i blame society for not contributing anything useful to me, so in return i have nothing useful to contribute to society's continuation.

am i guy? sure. am i human? id like to think so. enough about guys. how about the girls? especially the "nice" ones.

 

[softclocks]

Because it's fucking weird, and people don't like what they don't understand or is normal. And really, the majority of women think it's creepy and weird, and I agree.
Women don't want to be immediately put on a pedestal and showered with old-timey Shakespearean poetic romance and chivalry, they want to be treated like people, rather than things that exchange sex for chivalrous charm.
And they especially don't want someone to vomit that kind of shit and then get upset when it doesn't work. I heard of one case where a guy tried this on a girl, and she told him in no uncertain terms leave her alone or she'd kick his ass, and he called her a 'harpy that delights in the breaking of a gentleman's heart'.
It's fucking pathetic, and the ones like this make girls genuinely afraid of the type. So they should be.

- I don't think you're qualified to speak for the majority of women, especially not women outside of your area and/or culture.

- You're arguing against the idea that these guys expect sex in exchange for charms, both me and the poster I quoted pointed out that this isn't necessarily the case. There might not be any specific intentions behind their behaviour, because most inexperienced people have little to no knowledge of what to expect once they enter a relationship.

- Tried what on a girl? Being polite? This example doesn't sound like any reality I know, nor do I understand your anger towards these people. I assume you don't hate them for being inexperienced and/or ignorant when it comes to getting girls or boys, but from my experience that's the cause behind it, and there's no reason to hate someone for that.

- Please, stop underestimating and boxing in "women". Every woman responds differently to every situation. From what I experienced in my high-school days and have later observed, a lot of girls just assume that it's some harmless guy who doesn't know how to talk to girls and either help them build up confidence (assuming they're alreay friends), or simply turn them down (without threats). But in a lot of cases I know of, a lot of these people get together.

I have no idea where you're from, but a lot of countries don't have the clear-cut dating culture that America does. "clear cut" in the sense that going on dates are the norm, or that people ask someone out within minutes of getting to know them. In my home-country a lot of relationships take shape from parties and work/school, and as such it's rarely the case that someone enters a romantic relationship without having known someone a few days/weeks at first.

 

[wulf3n]

Not really. As a person with mental illness it IS possible to act like a human and draw people to you. Acting like a human should be a basic thing that *MOST* everyone in society should be able to do. Yes there are some disabilities and such that prevent people from it but hell, I know people who have severe autism who can act more human than NiceGuys[sup]TM[/sup]

Your ability to do so has no bearing on the helpfulness of the "advice".

If someone has difficulty "acting human" being told the solution to that problem is acting human is not only completely useless, it's incredibly condescending.

For another example it would be like telling someone who can't read the solution to not being able to read is being good at reading.

 

[Gypsyssilver]

Keeping that in mind, there seem to be only two possibilities:

1) Women in general dislike considerate people for some reason. But why? Even if the whole "women like jerks" stereotype applies, that stereotype is aimed at being partners. "creep, avoid" means that even acquainting yourself with such a person would be out of the question, which seems crazy to me.

2) We're not actually talking about considerate people at all, when we say "nice guys". Only, then what are we talking about? Jerks who, on the surface, display some sort of concern for the person they're trying to win over, while really being completely egotistical? Congratulations, that's like half the men on this planet, and from what I've seen during school, girls have no problem with such guys at all(as long as they're good looking, mind). Or does this really not have anything at all to do with being "nice" or not being "nice"?

Honestly, this whole thing confuses me.

Speaking as a woman, it's a bit of a combination of the two.

It all comes down to how safe the woman feels. Does she feel like the guy is actually a nice guy? Or does she feel threatened by him in some way (either by his physical characteristics, the way he dresses, their surroundings, or his behaviour)? (It's also possible she's a snob)

A nice guy that means you no harm... will be busy minding his own business. If he does notice you and wants to get to know you better - then he might approach, but he'll be looking out for the slightest sign that you don't want him up in your business.

Pro tip: If the girl starts looking away from you, answering in monosyllables etc, then it's time for you to leave.

The "nice guy" that you mentioned in your first point is the type of guy who ISN'T looking for those signals. She's backing away, wanting the conversation to end, but he's not playing ball. He keeps talking to her because what he wants is more important than what she wants. That's not a great way to make someone like you.

This post sums it up way better than I ever could:

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

 

[Vegosiux]

The "nice guy" that you mentioned in your first point is the type of guy who ISN'T looking for those signals. She's backing away, wanting the conversation to end, but he's not playing ball. He keeps talking to her because what he wants is more important than what she wants. That's not a great way to make someone like you.

It's not a great way to make someone like you, but considering something you want more important than something someone else wants is actually "acting human".

It also, depending on the context may be "acting confident" as opposed to the meek and timid guy who will shy away the moment there's a hint of disinterest.

I don't think I've ever seen non-trolls rag on someone on the internet just for lamenting about unrequited love. I've only seen people rag on people who blame women for their unrequited love.

I've seen people conflate the two, though. Some might have been trolls, in some cases it might have been an hones mistake, and in other some cases just a case of them being conditioned to believe they actually are the same thing.

And that's the point that really undermines your whole post. It's not that "Nice Guys" are unhappy. It's not that "Nice Guys" are doing it wrong. It's that "Nice Guys" think they are entitled to love, and if they aren't getting it, then it must be the fault of someone else.

I'm going to (again) jump on the bandwagon of the people wondering if that's an American thing, actually...

Make a thread about how bummed you are that a girl you like doesn't like you back, and I'm fairly sure the worst that will happen is that your thread will be forgotten because no one will care.

I'm half-inclined to suggest a friendly wager on this one, but I'm incredibly unlikely to actually make such a thread, seeing as I'm a tad too old and wise to run into such a situation...then again, stranger things have happened, life's always full of surprises.

But the moment you start tossing around terms like "friendzoned" or claiming that women only like bad guys, that's when you're going to start getting some ire.

Thing is, at least around here, these terms have not been tossed about by guys lamenting unrequited love, but in the majority of cases, by people making threads "Hey, how about those nice guys whining about friendzone", "Is friendzone a thing?" (a bit like this thread), and sometimes a reactionary "Stop bashing" thread. Even reading though the Advice Forum, where such a predicament ("girl trouble") happens rather often, I literally don't remember any NiceGuy™ whining about having been friendzoned.

 

[Nickolai77]

Okay, so... Married, here. Nothing to prove. Not looking. Bear that in mind in what I'm about to say.

I do not doubt that the stereotypical "nice guy" who is code for "thinking that being 'nice' ought to get you laid" actually exists. To indulge in further stereotyping, men are often mechanical thinkers; the whole "if 'x', then 'y', if not 'y', why not" thing is very much in a lot of men's wheelhouse, so to speak.

That said, I think the whole "nice guys are really jerks just acting nice trying to get laid" gets thrown about, and the sentiments put in the mouths of people complaining about being overlooked, way too often.

Some men are genuinely nice, and that doesn't deprive them of the right to be frustrated. Some men are hoping for something more than just sex, and they don't deserve to be turned into leering wolves by others' supposition.

And... And here's where someone is probably going to want to hand me my head... A lot of these "nice guys" aren't frustrated because their bottom-rung "niceness" isn't getting them in the door with the guy who's nice and good looking and confident and rich, etc.

They're frustrated because while they're nice, they're watching the object of their affections sigh after some boorish prick who treats them like dirt.

Not even necessarily a well-employed, immaculately groomed, rogueishly good-looking boorish prick, mind you. More like the kind of guy who forgets his wallet every time they go out, showers twice a month, cheats on her behind her back, and never calls back.

The rules of attraction aren't simple, mechanical things. And they don't play fair. If you throw this kind of accusation at a "nice guy" who's been someone's shoulder to cry on when one of "those" guys acted according to type and shook his fists at the sky because he'd never treat her like that, frankly, you're not some knowing sage or righteous scold. You're just indulging in a stereotype that allows you to feel better about your own crass behavior.

Quoted for truth- I very much agree with what you say here and you've expressed a few points I'd have made better than I would have.

When I was in high school I took the view that "being nice" to the girl of my affections would have been sufficient to initiate a relationship with her. Guy's can be very mechanical thinkers- If I do x, y will happen. "Being nice" also seems like a safer and easier way to get closer to her, particularly if you don't understand how "chatting up" someone works yet. Then, later on when you see your efforts wasted I think it's fair enough to have feelings of disappointment and frustration, particularly if you see her pining after someone you know is an asshole.

I have a lot of sympathy for guy's in that situation, and I think in a number of ways it's down to the sort of gender expectations we have about how guy's should "get" girls. That said, my sympathy does evaporate if he argues that he's entitled to a relationship with her because of how "nice" he's been, or comes out with things like "girls only date assholes"- or indeed cuts off all social ties with her once he realises she isn't interested.

We also need to separate "Nice Guyism" and "Unrequited Love", the former is a particular social phenomenon and the latter is something universal to anyone male and female. The trouble is that too many guys who are in a situation of unrequited love now get confused with being a Nice Guy and get told on internet threads like these that their perfectly legitimate feelings of sadness and frustration are somehow wrong.