Is this negative "nice guy" stereotype actually a thing?

[Torque2100]

Speaking as someone who used to think of himself as a "nice guy," the stereotype has basis in reality and is reasonable.

I've had encounters with `nice guys` and you get to see how `nice` they are the second you say no to them.

This has a lot to do with it.

The way it's used, it's nothing but weaponized guilt. It's a flacid dagger used by mewling little boys to try and guilt a woman into their arms because they're entitled little shits who think so highly of themselves that the very idea that they would treat another human being with kindness is some blessing from God, their Ego. It's the pitiful last bastion of selfish, needy manchildren with nothing to offer but angry, frustrated fantasies.

"Nice guys" are the absolute worse. They're delusional, egotistical sycophants with one hand up a weeping girl's skirt while the other brushes her hair telling her it will be alright; all the other guys are just jerks and she only needs him.

Rolaoi, you hit the head so hard it was driven out the other side. That is all this "Nice Guy" phenomenon boils down to. It's weaponized guilt. It's trying to force another person into a relationship when they really don't want it. "Look at all the things I've done for you! You owe me sex, a relationship so I can drape my arm around you and parade you in front of my creepy nerd friends." You are right, a lot of this has to do with a childish entitlement mentality that so many people in our culture have, young white males especially.

I realized these things because I became a stereotypical "Nice Guy." I tried for years to get girls to like me by doing things for them. I complained about the "Friend Zone" I hung around with a woman I liked for months and tried to get her into a relationship. Never once did I stop to consider what she wanted, that maybe she didn't want to sleep with me but still liked me enough to keep me around or that I should be happy with that. In the end, I lost her along with many other people I considered friends.

So every time I hear someone whining about how he can't get girls despite being such a "nice guy" I just want to smack him. I've tried to tell these idiots that all they're doing is being creepy, spoiled, entitled little boys trapped in men's bodies, but I'll be damned if every single one wasn't so utterly delusional and egotistical that he just flat out didn't want to hear it.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

*snip*

You said a lot of what I was going to say. Honestly, I think that a lot of the ways that the "Nice guy" is often characterized is inaccurate to make them seem far more scummy than they are. Namely the "Only looking to get into your pants" bit. From everyone I know who's been considered a Nice Guy they're generally people who have little self esteem, feel like they have nothing to offer and more than being the sex hungry creeps everyone makes the stereotype out to be they want to feel desirable in any small way.

They've nursed crushes, listened to their crushes tell them how all of the guys they've dated are massive jerks who treated them horribly and the Nice Guy's think, "Hey, I can be better than that, I wouldn't yell at her and treat her like shit". Then they make every effort to be the kind of person that they hear their crush describing, but ultimately she isn't attracted to him and sees him as more of a friend than anything else (sometimes, sometimes she doesn't really like him at all and a friend is more tolerable than boyfriend).

Being rejected by someone you're attracted to sucks as is, and even more when this just reinforces this idea you have in your head that you've got nothing to offer. Not to mention that they were trying to do everything they could to be the nice guy she wanted. Cue the vindictive conclusions that she doesn't really want a nice guy, she just wants some bad boy who'll abuse her (because she didn't want him and he was that nice guy).

Of course this is a childish and unfair response. Not excusing it by any means. Very few people are going to be attracted to someone or even want to be friends with someone just because they're nice. You want someone that you click with, and enjoy their company. However, at the very least from everyone I know whose been considered a Nice Guy it's not because they're a greedy, manipulative person who just wants to trick someone into sex. I've just found them to be guys with low self esteem, who want to feel wanted and have coped with rejection by lashing out. At the very least in my experience I've never known it to be a guy who just wanted sex

 

[Caiphus]

That's fine. It's still about as helpful as telling a poor person that the solution to their problem is that they need more money.

It's difficult to tell what the appropriate response is to stuff like this. It isn't helped by what's known as the fundamental attribution error:

http://216.22.10.76/wiki/The_Fundamental_Attribution_Error (psychwiki link)

The fundamental attribution error, also called the correspondence bias, describes the tendency for observer?s [sic] to attribute other people?s behavior to internal or dispositional factors and to downplay situational causes

Which is largely what you describe. It's tempting for most of us to see, say, a fat person or an unemployed person and to think "What a lazy bastard. They should fix that. Why aren't they fixing that?". It's difficult to realise that, in the case of the fat person, they might be working a 12 hour-a-day job, having to look after kids, etc. In the case of the unemployed person, technology might have made their education or work experience redundant. Or maybe they had a tough upbringing and didn't do well in school.

So what's the appropriate response? Do you then say "Ah, fair enough. Those external factors make your behaviour understandable, and we should be perfectly fine with you maintaining your current lifestyle"? Or should we say "Tough luck. The rest of us manage to be thin/employed. You should too"?

The answer is probably somewhere in the middle. Determining the amount of moral fault on behalf of the other person is, again, difficult, and will be different in each case. In cases of these Nice Guy fellows, they've probably grown up socially ostracized and romantically rejected. Some will harbour resentment, and that resentment may manifest itself in this way. I still don't think we should treat their behaviour as acceptable, not that you were suggesting it, but you are right: acting like it's just a purely conscious decision on their part to act like a dick isn't going to help.

 

[balladbird]

I lament that I have mixed feelings regarding the whole "nice guy" concept. I certainly can't deny that persons living up to the stereotype exist, most such generalizations have some basis in fact. However, when titling someone "nice guy", you run the risk of assuming you know their motivation and thoughts for being the way they are, which makes it similar to how the other side loves to throw "white knight" out, all willy-nilly.

Just like how the vast majority of feminist males aren't espousing their ideals for the sake of getting laid by the theoretical throngs of internet women, I don't think all self-professed "nice guys" come about as a result of ego-centrism, or entitlement. I'm sure it's a phenomenon with a number of causes, all of varying complexity. Disability, social anxiety, even naivete can all play their parts in it as well.

Not saying that the people who complain about how nice they are, while in the same breath insulting other people are any less insufferable, mind. It's annoying, and reeks of a complete lack of self awareness. Only explaining why I'm fairly slow to apply the stereotype to people in real life.

 

[lacktheknack]

The "creepy nice guy" isn't thought of as creepy because of social anxiety. It's because of feelings of fakeness. "Stepford" behaviour, if you will.

I would beg to differ. It's alarmingly common, at least where I'm from. The so called pretenders may get lumped in with that, but they aren't exclusive owners of the title.

At any rate, if your social default is somehow in "Stepford Mode", then I don't having any qualms in telling you to find a way to change that.

That's fine. It's still about as helpful as telling a poor person that the solution to their problem is that they need more money.

I had to figure this all out myself, I don't think it's unreasonable for people in an age of Google to have to actually do their own damn research for self-improvement.

But fine, <link=https://www.google.ca/search?q=the+brain+that+changes+itself&rlz=1C1LENN_enCA444CA444&oq=the+brain+that+changes+itself&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i65l2j69i61j69i60l2.5961j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8>here is a head start for all 0 people reading this that suffer Stepford social default and want to change it.

EDIT: Used the wrong link. -___-

 

[Fox12]

The irony is that these "nice guys" aren't really nice guys at all. If they expect a reward for being nice, then they have ulterior motives, and their kindness isn't genuine. If you take away the reward they were expecting, then they typically stop acting so nice, which reveals their true nature. It's not that women hate genuinely nice guys, it's that they hate creepy man children who try to deceive people so that they can get something they want in return.

Being a generally decent human being is, like, the minimum requirement for maintaining positive human relationships. Don't pat praise yourself too much just because your not an ass hole. Most women don't want to settle for a man whose main identifier is "not an ass hole." Sure you could be worse, but you could also be better. Truly nice people help others without actually expecting to get anything in return, because their kind, intelligent, confident human beings who have faith in themselves. It's difficult to love others if you can't love yourself.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

People really misuse the term 'nice guy' all the time. At least in terms of dating, what I've found that it means far more often is a guy who lacks confidence in himself and thus pretty much behaves like a door mat.

For the guy in question, this also works because then when the unrequited love comes in, he can tell himself "she's just an idiot who only dates jerk and bad boys who treat her wrong", as I've seen happen more times than I can count.

Regardless, it's not being nice that's a bad thing that women generally find unattractive, it's being a pushover who has no confidence in themself that does that. I've met plenty of guys who were incredibly nice people, some of the nicest I've ever met, but were also very confident in themselves, and they basically all married wonderful women. In this case, they are nice because that's who they genuinely are, not because they're trying to compensate for a lack of confidence.

 

[Moth_Monk]

The reason why people think being nice is the exception is because when you watch the news and observe mass media, it damn well does seem like being nice to people is the exception. Everyday we're bombarded with information about how horrible everyone is to everyone else...In fact, I think not being a misanthrope is the exception.

 

[wulf3n]

snip

I agree, it's a bit of a gray area. Though I'm not necessarily coming from the judging angle, but rather pointing out the obvious to someone as if it hadn't occured them.

I had to figure this all out myself, I don't think it's unreasonable for people in an age of Google to have to actually do their own damn research for self-improvement.

But fine, <link=https://www.google.ca/search?q=the+brain+that+changes+itself&rlz=1C1LENN_enCA444CA444&oq=the+brain+that+changes+itself&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i65l2j69i61j69i60l2.5961j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8>here is a head start for all 0 people reading this that suffer Stepford social default and want to change it.

EDIT: Used the wrong link. -___-

Unfortunately the solution to social anxiety isn't as easy as just googling it. Though that would lead to some pretty funny scenarios.

I was talking to this guy, but every time I finished a sentence he pulled out his phone and started typing something and then started staring blankly for several moments before responding. It was kinda creepy.

 

[Caiphus]

I agree, it's a bit of a gray area. Though I'm not necessarily coming from the judging angle, but rather pointing out the obvious to someone as if it hadn't occured them.

Oh sure. However, in this circumstance it might be slightly different. I'm sure that if you walked up to a poor person and told them that they were poor... Well. They know already. They've seen their own bank account. Same with a fat person or an unemployed person.

A lot of these Nice Guys probably don't recognise that they're actually being misogynistic/misanthropic/self-centered or what have you. I don't know for certain, but that's how it seems to me. So letting them know that their behaviour is harmful may have some merit.

But no, I understand where you're coming from. Just saying "You're being a twat" and then expecting them to have a nirvanic period of self-realisation is unlikely to be helpful.

 

[wulf3n]

Oh sure. However, in this circumstance it might be slightly different. I'm sure that if you walked up to a poor person and told them that they were poor... Well. They know already. They've seen their own bank account. Same with a fat person or an unemployed person.

A lot of these Nice Guys probably don't recognise that they're actually being misogynistic/misanthropic/self-centered or what have you. I don't know for certain, but that's how it seems to me. So letting them know that their behaviour is harmful may have some merit.

But no, I understand where you're coming from. Just saying "You're being a twat" and then expecting them to have a nirvanic period of self-realisation is unlikely to be helpful.

That's true, I hadn't given much thought to those who might not recognise their own behaviour.

 

[lacktheknack]

I had to figure this all out myself, I don't think it's unreasonable for people in an age of Google to have to actually do their own damn research for self-improvement.

But fine, <link=https://www.google.ca/search?q=the+brain+that+changes+itself&rlz=1C1LENN_enCA444CA444&oq=the+brain+that+changes+itself&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i65l2j69i61j69i60l2.5961j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8>here is a head start for all 0 people reading this that suffer Stepford social default and want to change it.

EDIT: Used the wrong link. -___-

Unfortunately the solution to social anxiety isn't as easy as just googling it. Though that would lead to some pretty funny scenarios.

I was talking to this guy, but every time I finished a sentence he pulled out his phone and started typing something and then started staring blankly for several moments before responding. It was kinda creepy.

The link I gave wouldn't be useful for that anyways, if you bothered to check it.

Not that it matters, since next to no-one actually needs it.

 

[Kinitawowi]

1) If a man had attributed characteristics of a woman to a piece of clothing in the same way these women apparently did with the fedora the internet would be in uproar.

2) There's a difference between a nice guy and a Nice Guy, which I'm pretty certain this thread is doing everything in its power to ignore.

 

[The Funslinger]

"Nice guys" are the absolute worse. They're delusional, egotistical sycophants with one hand up a weeping girl's skirt while the other brushes her hair telling her it will be alright; all the other guys are just jerks and she only needs him.

That was the one of the creepiest mental images I've had in a while, whilst at the same time being one of the most succinctly accurate explanations I've ever heard for this sort of thing.

So, congrats on that.

OT: Connected to this is something that really gets my goat: The 'the guy she's with is such an asshole, why can't she see I'm much better for her' thing.

Oh lawdy. It's like watching assorted rom-coms and some of the less stellar Disney flicks has helped guys like that perform these mental gymnastics where they convince themselves the other guy is absolutely villainous (maybe taking some sassy give and take in the relationship as signs of the guy being a jerk) so they really do get this fucked up hero complex.

My first year of A level college, I was friends with this girl who would update me about this guy I knew who it turned out had a major crush on her. She kept shutting him down increasingly bluntly, but he kept at it. Hell, he made several attempts (which he later admitted) to try and break her and her boyfriend up. Even after her boyfriend stopped him from drunkenly picking a fight with a group of other guys for no reason.

Of course I later very nearly got into a fight with said boyfriend when he thought I'd been making out with said girl. I hadn't, it was just shit stirring by this friend of mine who's basically the social equivalent of The Joker, watching the world burn, matches in hand. But that's a story for another time.

 

[wulf3n]

The link I gave wouldn't be useful for that anyways, if you bothered to check it.

Not that it matters, since next to no-one actually needs it.

I checked it, but google by itself provided for a better joke than a self help book.

Social anxiety generally speaking, doesn't stem from a lack of knowledge, but rather a difficulty in recognizing social cues, discerning emotion/facial expressions/body language, or sometimes just a crippling fear of interacting with people.

While it's entirely possible for people to overcome it, simply knowing on an intellectual level how to interact with others, doesn't mean they're going to be able to do it.

 

[lacktheknack]

The link I gave wouldn't be useful for that anyways, if you bothered to check it.

Not that it matters, since next to no-one actually needs it.

I checked it, but google by itself provided for a better joke than a self help book.

Social anxiety generally speaking, doesn't stem from a lack of knowledge, but rather a difficulty in recognizing social cues, discerning emotion/facial expressions/body language, or sometimes just a crippling fear of interacting with people.

While it's entirely possible for people to overcome it, simply knowing on an intellectual level how to interact with others, doesn't mean they're going to be able to do it.

That's what "The Brain That Changes Itself" is about. Taking what you know and getting so that your brain can actually process it by removing old thought processes and replacing them.

 

[marioandsonic]

Meh, I TRY to be a nice guy... but 'nice' is a term misused over and over again.

Opening the door for someone and just saying hi is being friendly. Telling a girl/guy how you think they're attractive or want to compliment them is flirting or making moves regardless of intention. Being nice really just means "To act with kindness on a daily basis". You should be nice because it's the right thing to do rather then wanting something out of it.

I admit... I am not that different from most guys. I'm flawed, have issues to overcome, I wish to be a better person, and act as good-willed towards man as possible. Luckily, I have done well so far but mistakes can happen at anytime. Heck, I don't blame women for feeling like overly nice guys are up to no good. Because some actually are just like that... they want to treat the girl with respect/kindness only to lure them into a position. When I say position, I mean to get them as a girlfriend or friend with benefits. Either way.

As for what girls want- it really depends on the person, not their gender. There are guys whom want to date Asian women only while there are girls whom want to date buff guys. Yet, Cindy over there really doesn't know what she wants and experiments by dating different guys. She ends up dating the most honest guy over the nice guys. Matthew over there usually likes loose girls whom are sexual but he falls hard for a country girl that is happy-go-lucky and settles. Seems to be a fantasy like story, but it happens. ALL depends on your character, and what you end up liking over the other qualities.

Let's not forget... that, people in general don't know what they want. Have you ever offered someone to try something and they dislike it by assumptions, only to end up trying it- and love it afterwards? Well, people are like that with relationships. Girls might feel the bad boy can be changed and yet they end up getting hurt in the end. However, the nice guy is just to friendly and doesn't let the girl make choices... resorting to her leaving from feeling like a child in the end. Very subjective, yet true.... we have to just find the right person for us. And again, don't be nice to score something with anyone- be nice because the world could use it from all the negativity that lingers. That is all.

This. All of this.

In general, I try to be a decent person to everyone, not just women.

My biggest flaw with trying to attract women isn't trying to be "too nice", or my looks (at least I HOPE not...), but that when I see a women I want to try and get to know, I get cold feet. I'm not very good at striking up a conversation with total strangers.

But that's something I have to get over, I suppose.

 

[wulf3n]

That's what "The Brain That Changes Itself" is about. Taking what you know and getting so that your brain can actually process it by removing old thought processes and replacing them.

I don't understand the first part of that sentence, but overall I'm not disagreeing that people can change, just that It's not as simple as reading up on proper etiquette.

If the Wikipedia summary of "The Brain That Changes Itself" is anything to go by, then the book implies that it takes months (approx 10) of constant practice (2-3hrs per day) for the brain to properly retain new processes. Not an easy task.

 

[lacktheknack]

That's what "The Brain That Changes Itself" is about. Taking what you know and getting so that your brain can actually process it by removing old thought processes and replacing them.

I don't understand the first part of that sentence, but overall I'm not disagreeing that people can change, just that It's not as simple as reading up on proper etiquette.

If the Wikipedia summary of "The Brain That Changes Itself" is anything to go by, then the book implies that it takes months (approx 10) of constant practice (2-3hrs per day) for the brain to properly retain new processes. Not an easy task.

Self improvement is the opposite of easy. If it was easy, everyone would be adept at everything.

 

[wulf3n]

Self improvement is the opposite of easy. If it was easy, everyone would be adept at everything.

Which is why I took exception to the "just stop being you" advice, as it implies that it's simple, when it really isn't.