Wow... I missed a lot. Some of this is in response to about two pages ago, but I worked hard on it, so please...? Also I want to restate my questions. As they appeared in the first post:
I want the accusations that Israel is an apartheid state cleared up, preferably with evidence to throw in the face of those I'd have to argue with. *Are* are Arab Israeli citizens denied any rights? *Are* areas of mostly Arab Israelis (or even areas of mostly Arabs who aren't Israeli) underdeveloped? *Is* there any sort of separate-but-equal going on?
I also want to ask about the Jerusalem question. I know the official government stance is that Jerusalem is the indivisible and eternal capital of the state, but do you feel it should not be divided? Do most Israelis feel this way? If it came to the point where a workable peace could be reached in exchange for a division, do you think the government would take it despite their official position?
On to my post!
Hardcore_gamer said:
This logic feels very poor to me. Even if Hamas may use ruthless and evil tactics, that does not make it ok for you to go as low as they, i for one see very little difference between targeting civilians directly and shamelessly targeting a terrorist that is hiding in a group of civilians knowing that you will kill plenty of civilians in case you press the trigger.
Allow me to explain it like this: Hamas kills Israeli civilians. Sooner or later, Israel decides to try to intervene and stop them. Now Hamas deliberately hides among civilians, puts their mortar locations next to, say, UN schools, puts gunmen in apartment buildings, etc... Israel has two choices; they can open fire, and hope to kill a terrorist for every, say, 10 people they kill, or they can get in cover and wait under heavy fire until an opportunity to surrender, since they'll be incapable of firing until Hamas ceases to use people as human shields, which they won't. Except that Hamas has also demonstrated that they will go to every end to try to kidnap the soldiers and trade them for convicted terrorists, not capture them and treat them as POWs. Ever single sentence there that started with the word Hamas involved breaking Geneva conventions. Now, where should Israel stop? Should they never retaliate, and allow their civilian population to be terrorized while doing NOTHING? Should they attack, but never actually open fire until they have a perfect shot? Should they hole themselves up and wait for Hamas to try to kidnap them because, even though they're supposed to be part of an eleccted government they refuse to follow any laws of war? Frankly, every single civlian killed by the IDF in places like Gaza I am more than willing to put at Hamas' feet, and if they're going to be elected and still act like terrorists, then they are one nation going to war against another, and Israel can be no more begrudged than the Allies were for firebombing Dresden and Tokyo. In fact, they should be less begrudged; they have the means to firebomb all of Gaza, but still send their infantry to fight and die.
Hardcore_gamer said:
Because your government is made up of fascists who intend to annex gaza and whatever area of land they think would make a nice addition too the people of Israel, make your self a favor and don't vote for the far right winged next time. Or the time after that for that matter.
Ok... That is so ridiculous it's almost laughable. Oh... You're nearly a treat... but you're really a cry! Sorry, had to. That said, no one wants Gaza. It is probably the poorest slum in the Mediterranean. Always has been, down to its very foundation by the ancient Egyptians in the Hittite Wars. Israel wanted Egypt to get it back; they wouldn't take it. The West Bank doesn't really want it. No one, in fact, wants it. So to claim that is ludicrous on SO MANY LEVELS!!!! Besides, if Israel is full of annex-happy facists, why, oh why, don't we own the Sinai and a bank of the Nile? Israel routed the Egyptian army in '78 and took all that land in a defensive war. They gave it all back. Why would they do that, if they were so annex-happy?.
All that said, about Israel's right and need to exist (to complement Xsy's post):
The Declaration of Human Rights is largely based, legally, on the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen. I want to emphasize the last clause there: and of the CITIZEN. In the 1930's, Germany declared that Jews could not be citizens of Germany, and displaced an incredible amount of people in a very short time. They violated every concievable right of man, not just by declaring Jews weren't men, but by declaring Jews weren't citizens. And even today, it is only your citizenship in a country that guarantees your rights. Now, Jews are, without a doubt, the most discriminated against people in the West, and probably everywhere, largely--but not excludively--because for so long they had no country, no "home" (see the Errant Jew). So, after World War II, it became clear that Jews NEEDED a nation. They'd already been moving to the British Mandate of Palestine, en masse, and organized a quasi government, which had even tacitly supported the Allies in WWII (see Jewish Brigade). These two things combined to Israel being where it is. The fact that just about every soldier in the Western front got marched through concentration camps and got guilted out of his anti-semitism, giving us about half a century of peace and quiet in the US and most of Europe, doesn't erase the fact that just before that Jews were actively persecuted in the US, and doesn't mean that at any time things couldn't be reversed. I for one am worried that growing anti-zionism could, in time, become anti-semitism, and anti-semitism hasn't abated in some parts of the world; in the middle east you can find the Protocols of the Elders of Zion easily and in high demand. I think I'd like a state to fall back on if the US ever fails me.
Also, the doomsday scenario from earlier doesn't need to be as elaborate; if Israel was ever seriously threatened, every Arab capital would become a smoking glass crater. If they really wanted to go ala Masada, I guess they could, but they could just take everything else out pre-emptively, too.
? ).
