It's "that" Skyrim topic again...

[Doom972]

I actually think that it might be for the best if the Thalmor just take over. The empire is weak in its current state (It's basically just High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil), and the current ruling Mede dynasty doesn't have the divine right that the Septims had. Skyrim would be very weak as an independent nation, and won't be able to resist oppose the elves' numbers and skill with magic.

I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.

It does make sense, but you can actually find a journal in the Thalmor embassy that approves what the OP said.

For the better if the Nazi elves take over? Somehow I don't think they will rule more justly then the Mede empire.

Doesn't the document say the civil war continuing is just the desired state of affairs and thus a quick end must be avoided. Even if both sides weakening each other is the best outcome the empire losing a province would be a very nice consolation prize in the case of a quick Stormcloak victory.

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?

There's a quest in Whiterun to track down someone's son, who has been taken by the Thalmor for speaking out against their ban on Talos.

I won't give away too much, but you find him in a room with a, "Thalmor Torturer", with clear signs of interrogation and torture. Not a concentration camp, but still very Nazi like.

As I said in another post, I did this quest. I also commented on it.
As for your specific point: All nations who've been in a war used various torture techniques. I don't see how it's specific to nazis. If I think of torture, I usually think china. In many films/books/games/etc I see mentions of "ancient chinese torture techniques", so that's the first thing that comes to mind.

I don't see the Thalmor having much to do with nazis without the genocide and leader worship.

 

[Battleaxx90]

Only problem is I find it really hard to sympathize with some of the stormcloaks worse elements and I like the imperial Jarls more.

Very much this. Every time I try to make a Stormcloak character, Whiterun gets attacked and Balgruuf gets ousted and I just have to go over to Windhelm and murder every single one of them.

Whiterun's easily my favorite city and Balgruuf's the best Jarl of them all. Having to actually attack his city never sits right with me.

THIS.

I was perfectly willing to ignore the whole civil war plotline - both sides are different varieties of asshats, and they were just gonna have staring contests until I joined up with one side anyway - but then I discovered that Ulfric was planning to invade Whiterun. That's what tore it.

Whiterun is my character's hometown; my headcanon is that he lived in that burned house outside the city when he was a kid. He lost his home once already, and he had no plans whatsoever of losing it again. So he joined the Legion as a means to an end to protect his home and all of Skyrim.

 

[Siege_TF]

Stormcloaks: Regressive nationalists.
Forsworn: Like Stormcloaks, but worse. Possible Daedra worshipers.
Imperials: Surprisingly decent for a medieval setting, particularly compared to their real word counterparts.
Dominion: Wicked elf swine.
Horses: Need satchels.

 

[saluraropicrusa]

I'm of the opinion that the Empire is functionally dead before Skyrim even begins. Even before the Great War they only controlled Cyrodiil, High-Rock, Hammerfell and Skyrim, but the fact is that they lost the war. Forcing Skyrim to stick with the Empire now is less like unifying Tamriel to defend against the Aldmeri, and more like tying a boulder to High-Rock and Skyrim to drag them down into defeat with it.

Hell, Hammerfell was given to the Aldmeri Dominion by the Empire, and they've done alright seceding and driving the Aldmeri Dominion out themselves. I don't see why it would be any less advantageous for Skyrim to do the same. There are undercurrents of xenophobia in the Stormcloak rebellion, sure, but that's hardly surprising or even unjustified considering the situation. Other than that, they just seem the better option, whether you want religious freedom or just victory against the Dominion. After losing the war and getting weaker and weaker, the Empire has nothing to offer now but Thalmor oppression and defeat.

I pretty much completely agree with this.

I've played the Stormcloak storyline before, and though there are indeed some racist assholes within their ranks, both Ulfric and his right-hand-man were more than accepting and respectful to my character (a Khajiit), and I can't recall being given any trouble for being a cat.

Besides, my main character is a member of the Dark Brotherhood. The Empire has tried to kill her TWICE, and succeeded in killing almost her entire (adoptive) family. There's no way in Oblivion she'd side with them, unless it was the easiest way to kill them in their sleep.

 

[Scott Rothman]

They're both super evil, especially once you read into the whole forsworn backstory.

Lol look at this forsworn sympathizer

I bet you think Markarth rightfully belongs to High Rock too

and you replaced your heart with a Briar Heart which could easily be pickpocketed off you and therefore kill you.

They were on Skyrim first! Then the Nords just decide, nah we want this. Time to slaughter all the people currently living here!

 

[fornever1]

In the long term i can't see how the stormcloaks winning is better for skyrim. The dominion would have a much easier time conquering two provences and then one as opposed to having to conquer all three at once. plus from what we've seen in the game the stormcloaks have a weaker army. they only have light armored infantry whereas the empire has light and heavy armored infantry and mages. also Skyrim would be on its own surrounded by people who don't like it.also, if the dragonborn didn't interfere the imperials are the most likely to win.

 

[shintakie10]

Hell, Hammerfell was given to the Aldmeri Dominion by the Empire, and they've done alright seceding and driving the Aldmeri Dominion out themselves

Not really true. The Redguards only won because the Dominion sorta stopped carin. They knew Cyrodill was the big prize and Hammerfell was just a distraction so left a token force to hold off the Redguards. Until the point that the Empire started pushin the Dominion back the Redguards weren't able to gain any ground against the Dominion.

Even better, it's possible for the Dragonborn to never know about this, essentially being a massive spanner in the works to a plan the Dominion has been developing and implementing for several decades or possibly centuries, going back as far as the end of the Septim dynasty.

Chances are the Dragonborn will be put on a bus, much like the Nerevarine from Morrowind and the hero from Oblivion, because characters as powerful as them screw with the narrative too much to work the lore around.

 

[fornever1]

Besides, my main character is a member of the Dark Brotherhood. The Empire has tried to kill her TWICE, and succeeded in killing almost her entire (adoptive) family. There's no way in Oblivion she'd side with them, unless it was the easiest way to kill them in their sleep.

can you blame them? you WERE trying to kill the emperor, you started it. besides, they never would have found you if it wasn't for the leader of your "family".

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

- Ulfric acts like a petulant child at the negotiation at High Hrothgar. First he tries to tell the Imperials who they can and can't bring to the meeting. Then he asks for a major city in exchange for a tiny one. And if you side with the Imperials on both of these issues, he whines that you're being unfair to the Stormcloaks.

I may be getting my wires crossed, as it's been a while since I did that mission, but wasn't the Thalmor representative at that negotiation the same person who had tortured Ulfric during the Great War?

Yeah, I'd be pissed too.

OT: I don't know, I've sided with both (and neither) in various play throughs. Thalmor proxy he may be, but I always got the impression that the Thalmor just wanted Ulfric to cause enough trouble to weaken the Empire, and that they didn't actually expect him to win. It's the chaos that suits them, and if the Dragonborn helps bring a swift end to the conflict for either side then that's a problem. If the Empire wins, the Thalmor may get to keep their little concessions from the White Gold Concordat, but the Empire gets a vital secure province, with the cultural significance of being the fatherland of mankind, and thousands of Nords bolstering their ranks to boot. They become much stronger for it, maybe one day strong enough to win back the provinces that the Thalmor seized. If the Stormcloaks win, then the Dominion is suddenly no longer welcome in Skyrim, and as powerful as they are they don't have the men to fight that war. If both the Redguards and the Nords can throw off Thalmor rule on their own, then that's a serious wound for the regime.

On a more moral side of things. Ulfric can be an idiot and a hypocrite, but I can understand a lot of his frustrations. General Tullius is a strong leader and keen strategist, but he falls down in his complete disinterest of winning the hearts and minds of the Nords (also, the Jarl he's propping up and trying to make high queen has even less idea of how to rule than Ulfric does.

 

[Evil Smurf]

I think it would be a better game if I could turn it into a socialist utopia. We can all dream right?

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

I don't see the Thalmor having much to do with nazis without the genocide and leader worship.

Leader worship I'll grant, as we don't really know very much about the Thalmor hierarchy to make comparisons one way or another. On genocide however, there are references in the game's main storyline of very genocidal-like 'purges' happening in the provinces now controlled by the Aldmeri Dominion. It may not be happening on the same scale in Skyrim, but that's only because they don't have a large enough foothold in the region to get away with it.

Other than that:

- Religious zealot-ism.

- Self-appointed title as 'saviours' of their homeland.

- Intolerance of dissent.

- Denial of freedoms.

- Brutal secret police.

- Aggressive foreign policy.

- 'Lebensraum'-esque rhetoric.

- Encouragement of the local population to collaborate on their peers.

- Pathological hatred of so-called "lesser races".

- Have benefited from appeasement.

The Thalmor are fascists. No two ways about it. Granted, the Nazis were not the only facists in history, but they are the most well-known reference point, and the only one who would seem to conform with all of those bullet points at once.

 

[Doom972]

I don't see the Thalmor having much to do with nazis without the genocide and leader worship.

Leader worship I'll grant, as we don't really know very much about the Thalmor hierarchy to make comparisons one way or another. On genocide however, there are references in the game's main storyline of very genocidal-like 'purges' happening in the provinces now controlled by the Aldmeri Dominion. It may not be happening on the same scale in Skyrim, but that's only because they don't have a large enough foothold in the region to get away with it.

Other than that:

- Religious zealot-ism.

- Self-appointed title as 'saviours' of their homeland.

- Intolerance of dissent.

- Denial of freedoms.

- Brutal secret police.

- Aggressive foreign policy.

- 'Lebensraum'-esque rhetoric.

- Encouragement of the local population to collaborate on their peers.

- Pathological hatred of so-called "lesser races".

- Have benefited from appeasement.

The Thalmor are fascists. No two ways about it. Granted, the Nazis were not the only facists in history, but they are the most well-known reference point, and the only one who would seem to conform with all of those bullet points at once.

I definitely agree about them being fascist. A quick search about Thalmor purges led me to a timeline which says that when the Thalmor took over Summerset Isle, they purged non-Altmer and dissidents which does make them seem a bit nazi-like.

 

[Lil_Rimmy]

I've said this before in many more words, but I'll sum it up:

Empire ended the war so they could buy time, they don't want to ban the worship of Talos, and are just waiting to regain strength so that can fight back against the Thalmor. Many of the places that the Empire "lost control" of, such as Hammerfell, are also fighting back against the Thalmor, and Hammerfell are kicking total ass.

If the Stormcloaks win, apart from the total racism and whatnot, the Empire gets divided further, but the Stormcloaks would not be able to resist the Thalmor like Hammerfell did, due to just fighting a war. If the Empire wins, they are still able to defend Skyrim, and are not divided further.

I remember in many threads people were going: "OMG, it's such a Grey and Grey choice! Any option is equal!" And many people such as me point out that the Stormcloaks winning is worse for Skyrim, the Empire and anyone is not a Nord. And much, much better for those milk drinkin' swine licking mud headed Thalmor.

Please read that last sentence in a Scottish accent.

 

[Ruzinus]

I fully expected this topic to be about mods, and I am disappointed that it is not.

Anyway. Both sides are wrong, and should just bow to elven superiority.

 

[JamesStone]

I actually think that it might be for the best if the Thalmor just take over. The empire is weak in its current state (It's basically just High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil), and the current ruling Mede dynasty doesn't have the divine right that the Septims had. Skyrim would be very weak as an independent nation, and won't be able to resist oppose the elves' numbers and skill with magic.

I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.

It does make sense, but you can actually find a journal in the Thalmor embassy that approves what the OP said.

For the better if the Nazi elves take over? Somehow I don't think they will rule more justly then the Mede empire.

Doesn't the document say the civil war continuing is just the desired state of affairs and thus a quick end must be avoided. Even if both sides weakening each other is the best outcome the empire losing a province would be a very nice consolation prize in the case of a quick Stormcloak victory.

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

They have Justiciars who are constantly rooting out Talos Worship, who have the powers of Judge, Jury and Executioner. Basically the Thalmor Justiciars are Gestapo.

They sound more like the Spanish Inquisition to me, but fair enough, I see your point there.

There is also a Fort to the north east of Solitude where Thalmor "interrogate" Talos worshippers (a parallel to Jews) and Stormcloaks. It's placed in a suspiciously remote location behind the northernmost mountains at the very tip of Skyrim by the sea and, though they claim they have imperial permission, there are no imperial officers present. It is the only place inhabited solely by Thalmor with the exception of the Embassies restricted areas.

Jews weren't imprisoned in this manner. Jews were either restricted to the ghettos to die of sickness and/or starvation, sent to forced work camps, or sent to death camps. In short, they were treated like animals, not prisoners. I checked this place out, and what I understood is that these prisoners are held because the Thalmor consider them a risk to their cause (probably because they know certain Thalmor secrets) or because they want to extract information from them.

There is one quest you can take to rescue the Son of a stormcloak supporter which ultimately involves storming the place (even as an imperial or altmer). There is a bugged part of the quest where you can ask Tullius to free the man, but even in modded games that have that section fixed you will still have storm the place.

I know. I did the quest. What's your point? Also, notice that the Legion knows about this place.

Now at this point it's easy to assume it's POW camp. But, you find in the prison cells there are also Khajiit, Argonian and Dunmer prisoners, of which are highly unlikely to be Talos worshippers (Dunmer commonly worship Daedra, Argonians worship the Hist and Sithis, Khajiit worship a variation of the old Aldmeri pantheon) or Stormcloak supporters (due to the fact the stormcloaks are resentful towards all non-nords).

What better choice for Imperial/Stormcloak spies? The Thalmor would immediately suspect nords, but other races have a better chance to acquire intelligence unnoticed. It could also be that these are just some poor sods who stumbled upon Thalmor secrets and are considered too dangerous to be left free.

This fits in with Altmers notorious superiority complex over other "lesser" races. What used to be an air of arrogance in earlier games has become a full blown racial supremacist culture.

Every race has a large share of bigots. The nords of Skyrim in particular. Saying an entire race has superiority complex is a bit racist. I've met plenty of nice high elves in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim.

There are a lot of Parralells between Nazis and the Thalmor. They aren't a literal reimagining of them in a fantasy setting, but they have a lot of components that smell like Fascist Nazi Germany, and I doubt that is a coincidence.

Lets' see:

Leader Worship? No. I didn't see any evidence of them worshipping a leader like the Germans worshipped Hitler. I don't even know the leader's name or title.

Systematic genocide? Again, I don't see it. A select few prisoners and selective executions of Talos Worshippers isn't genocide.

A vision of a pure elf-only Tamriel? Perhaps. It was a little unclear to me if that's their ultimate intention, so I'll leave this one.

According to the Elder Scrolls Lore, Mundus is kept together by the intervention of Talos is the only thing keeping Mundus (the world) together, avoiding its destruction and the return to Aetherius. Considering the High Elves are "direct" descendants of the Aedra whose power was drained by Lorkham to create the world, they expect to regain their divinity by destroying the world. However, the other races, including elven offsprings, will probably cease to exist, for their bloodline is too dispersed from the Divine Pantheon. The Aldmeri Dominion knows this, and is perfectly ok with coming along and commiting genocide.

Know your lore before discussing it.

 

[Doom972]

I actually think that it might be for the best if the Thalmor just take over. The empire is weak in its current state (It's basically just High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil), and the current ruling Mede dynasty doesn't have the divine right that the Septims had. Skyrim would be very weak as an independent nation, and won't be able to resist oppose the elves' numbers and skill with magic.

I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.

It does make sense, but you can actually find a journal in the Thalmor embassy that approves what the OP said.

For the better if the Nazi elves take over? Somehow I don't think they will rule more justly then the Mede empire.

Doesn't the document say the civil war continuing is just the desired state of affairs and thus a quick end must be avoided. Even if both sides weakening each other is the best outcome the empire losing a province would be a very nice consolation prize in the case of a quick Stormcloak victory.

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

They have Justiciars who are constantly rooting out Talos Worship, who have the powers of Judge, Jury and Executioner. Basically the Thalmor Justiciars are Gestapo.

They sound more like the Spanish Inquisition to me, but fair enough, I see your point there.

There is also a Fort to the north east of Solitude where Thalmor "interrogate" Talos worshippers (a parallel to Jews) and Stormcloaks. It's placed in a suspiciously remote location behind the northernmost mountains at the very tip of Skyrim by the sea and, though they claim they have imperial permission, there are no imperial officers present. It is the only place inhabited solely by Thalmor with the exception of the Embassies restricted areas.

Jews weren't imprisoned in this manner. Jews were either restricted to the ghettos to die of sickness and/or starvation, sent to forced work camps, or sent to death camps. In short, they were treated like animals, not prisoners. I checked this place out, and what I understood is that these prisoners are held because the Thalmor consider them a risk to their cause (probably because they know certain Thalmor secrets) or because they want to extract information from them.

There is one quest you can take to rescue the Son of a stormcloak supporter which ultimately involves storming the place (even as an imperial or altmer). There is a bugged part of the quest where you can ask Tullius to free the man, but even in modded games that have that section fixed you will still have storm the place.

I know. I did the quest. What's your point? Also, notice that the Legion knows about this place.

Now at this point it's easy to assume it's POW camp. But, you find in the prison cells there are also Khajiit, Argonian and Dunmer prisoners, of which are highly unlikely to be Talos worshippers (Dunmer commonly worship Daedra, Argonians worship the Hist and Sithis, Khajiit worship a variation of the old Aldmeri pantheon) or Stormcloak supporters (due to the fact the stormcloaks are resentful towards all non-nords).

What better choice for Imperial/Stormcloak spies? The Thalmor would immediately suspect nords, but other races have a better chance to acquire intelligence unnoticed. It could also be that these are just some poor sods who stumbled upon Thalmor secrets and are considered too dangerous to be left free.

This fits in with Altmers notorious superiority complex over other "lesser" races. What used to be an air of arrogance in earlier games has become a full blown racial supremacist culture.

Every race has a large share of bigots. The nords of Skyrim in particular. Saying an entire race has superiority complex is a bit racist. I've met plenty of nice high elves in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim.

There are a lot of Parralells between Nazis and the Thalmor. They aren't a literal reimagining of them in a fantasy setting, but they have a lot of components that smell like Fascist Nazi Germany, and I doubt that is a coincidence.

Lets' see:

Leader Worship? No. I didn't see any evidence of them worshipping a leader like the Germans worshipped Hitler. I don't even know the leader's name or title.

Systematic genocide? Again, I don't see it. A select few prisoners and selective executions of Talos Worshippers isn't genocide.

A vision of a pure elf-only Tamriel? Perhaps. It was a little unclear to me if that's their ultimate intention, so I'll leave this one.

According to the Elder Scrolls Lore, Mundus is kept together by the intervention of Talos is the only thing keeping Mundus (the world) together, avoiding its destruction and the return to Aetherius. Considering the High Elves are "direct" descendants of the Aedra whose power was drained by Lorkham to create the world, they expect to regain their divinity by destroying the world. However, the other races, including elven offsprings, will probably cease to exist, for their bloodline is too dispersed from the Divine Pantheon. The Aldmeri Dominion knows this, and is perfectly ok with coming along and commiting genocide.

Know your lore before discussing it.

Read the entire discussion I had with others if you want to join in. Your post is irrelevant at this point because it was discussed.

 

[Muspelheim]

I fully expected this topic to be about mods, and I am disappointed that it is not.

Anyway. Both sides are wrong, and should just bow to elven superiority.

Agreed, bow to Elven superiority, and play along, while continuing business in the shadows. As long as they get to feel superior and in charge, we get to go about our business in peace. Maybe sell 'em magic mirrors they can admire themselves in. It's the Khajiit way!

Khajiit Advisor: How's things going at the gates?

Very Sad Nord: Not good. They're nearly through. We can't withstand this siege much longer...

Frustrated Khajiit Advisor: Then make a deal!

Slightly Apprehensive Nord: What kind of a deal?

Eager Khajiit: A deal-deal!

 

[saluraropicrusa]

Besides, my main character is a member of the Dark Brotherhood. The Empire has tried to kill her TWICE, and succeeded in killing almost her entire (adoptive) family. There's no way in Oblivion she'd side with them, unless it was the easiest way to kill them in their sleep.

can you blame them? you WERE trying to kill the emperor, you started it. besides, they never would have found you if it wasn't for the leader of your "family".

Hey now, I never said anything about them being unjustified. I was just relating my thoughts on the whole civil war deal to the attitudes of my character. She's an assassin, that's what she does, and the Dark Brotherhood are the only family she has. You couldn't exactly blame her for not being bffs with the Empire after what they did, could you? Besides, Astrid just wanted everyone to be safe, and if that general who's name I've forgotten hadn't gone back on his end of the bargain, it wouldn't have ended in almost everyone at the sanctuary being killed.

 

[dfphetteplace]

I have completely avoided the Civil War plotline as I don't think either side is right, or even more right for me to pick a side.

 

[J Tyran]

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

In Valenwood and on the Summerset Isle the Thalmoor are running pogroms and "re-education programs", theres a few books and a couple of characters than mention it. They crush any dissent or disagreement in their own territory rather brutally.

1) That's a good reason to dislike the High Elves and the Imperials, not a good reason to be xenophobic. Windhelm, the Stormcloak "capital", is filled with racism against the Dark Elf population for no good reason at all.

Racism is ugly but I find it hard to have sympathy with Dunmer at all, not after seeing how racist and Xenophobic they where in their homeland. Eye for an eye is pretty crappy, always is but I find it hard to have empathy with a culture that was every bit as racist (if not worse) and kept slaves and raided neighbouring cultures to capture those slaves.