It's "that" Skyrim topic again...

[NinjaDeathSlap]

- Ulfric acts like a petulant child at the negotiation at High Hrothgar. First he tries to tell the Imperials who they can and can't bring to the meeting. Then he asks for a major city in exchange for a tiny one. And if you side with the Imperials on both of these issues, he whines that you're being unfair to the Stormcloaks.

I may be getting my wires crossed, as it's been a while since I did that mission, but wasn't the Thalmor representative at that negotiation the same person who had tortured Ulfric during the Great War?

Yeah, I'd be pissed too.

OT: I don't know, I've sided with both (and neither) in various play throughs. Thalmor proxy he may be, but I always got the impression that the Thalmor just wanted Ulfric to cause enough trouble to weaken the Empire, and that they didn't actually expect him to win. It's the chaos that suits them, and if the Dragonborn helps bring a swift end to the conflict for either side then that's a problem. If the Empire wins, the Thalmor may get to keep their little concessions from the White Gold Concordat, but the Empire gets a vital secure province, with the cultural significance of being the fatherland of mankind, and thousands of Nords bolstering their ranks to boot. They become much stronger for it, maybe one day strong enough to win back the provinces that the Thalmor seized. If the Stormcloaks win, then the Dominion is suddenly no longer welcome in Skyrim, and as powerful as they are they don't have the men to fight that war. If both the Redguards and the Nords can throw off Thalmor rule on their own, then that's a serious wound for the regime.

On a more moral side of things. Ulfric can be an idiot and a hypocrite, but I can understand a lot of his frustrations. General Tullius is a strong leader and keen strategist, but he falls down in his complete disinterest of winning the hearts and minds of the Nords (also, the Jarl he's propping up and trying to make high queen has even less idea of how to rule than Ulfric does.

 

[Evil Smurf]

I think it would be a better game if I could turn it into a socialist utopia. We can all dream right?

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

I don't see the Thalmor having much to do with nazis without the genocide and leader worship.

Leader worship I'll grant, as we don't really know very much about the Thalmor hierarchy to make comparisons one way or another. On genocide however, there are references in the game's main storyline of very genocidal-like 'purges' happening in the provinces now controlled by the Aldmeri Dominion. It may not be happening on the same scale in Skyrim, but that's only because they don't have a large enough foothold in the region to get away with it.

Other than that:

- Religious zealot-ism.

- Self-appointed title as 'saviours' of their homeland.

- Intolerance of dissent.

- Denial of freedoms.

- Brutal secret police.

- Aggressive foreign policy.

- 'Lebensraum'-esque rhetoric.

- Encouragement of the local population to collaborate on their peers.

- Pathological hatred of so-called "lesser races".

- Have benefited from appeasement.

The Thalmor are fascists. No two ways about it. Granted, the Nazis were not the only facists in history, but they are the most well-known reference point, and the only one who would seem to conform with all of those bullet points at once.

 

[Doom972]

I don't see the Thalmor having much to do with nazis without the genocide and leader worship.

Leader worship I'll grant, as we don't really know very much about the Thalmor hierarchy to make comparisons one way or another. On genocide however, there are references in the game's main storyline of very genocidal-like 'purges' happening in the provinces now controlled by the Aldmeri Dominion. It may not be happening on the same scale in Skyrim, but that's only because they don't have a large enough foothold in the region to get away with it.

Other than that:

- Religious zealot-ism.

- Self-appointed title as 'saviours' of their homeland.

- Intolerance of dissent.

- Denial of freedoms.

- Brutal secret police.

- Aggressive foreign policy.

- 'Lebensraum'-esque rhetoric.

- Encouragement of the local population to collaborate on their peers.

- Pathological hatred of so-called "lesser races".

- Have benefited from appeasement.

The Thalmor are fascists. No two ways about it. Granted, the Nazis were not the only facists in history, but they are the most well-known reference point, and the only one who would seem to conform with all of those bullet points at once.

I definitely agree about them being fascist. A quick search about Thalmor purges led me to a timeline which says that when the Thalmor took over Summerset Isle, they purged non-Altmer and dissidents which does make them seem a bit nazi-like.

 

[Lil_Rimmy]

I've said this before in many more words, but I'll sum it up:

Empire ended the war so they could buy time, they don't want to ban the worship of Talos, and are just waiting to regain strength so that can fight back against the Thalmor. Many of the places that the Empire "lost control" of, such as Hammerfell, are also fighting back against the Thalmor, and Hammerfell are kicking total ass.

If the Stormcloaks win, apart from the total racism and whatnot, the Empire gets divided further, but the Stormcloaks would not be able to resist the Thalmor like Hammerfell did, due to just fighting a war. If the Empire wins, they are still able to defend Skyrim, and are not divided further.

I remember in many threads people were going: "OMG, it's such a Grey and Grey choice! Any option is equal!" And many people such as me point out that the Stormcloaks winning is worse for Skyrim, the Empire and anyone is not a Nord. And much, much better for those milk drinkin' swine licking mud headed Thalmor.

Please read that last sentence in a Scottish accent.

 

[Ruzinus]

I fully expected this topic to be about mods, and I am disappointed that it is not.

Anyway. Both sides are wrong, and should just bow to elven superiority.

 

[JamesStone]

I actually think that it might be for the best if the Thalmor just take over. The empire is weak in its current state (It's basically just High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil), and the current ruling Mede dynasty doesn't have the divine right that the Septims had. Skyrim would be very weak as an independent nation, and won't be able to resist oppose the elves' numbers and skill with magic.

I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.

It does make sense, but you can actually find a journal in the Thalmor embassy that approves what the OP said.

For the better if the Nazi elves take over? Somehow I don't think they will rule more justly then the Mede empire.

Doesn't the document say the civil war continuing is just the desired state of affairs and thus a quick end must be avoided. Even if both sides weakening each other is the best outcome the empire losing a province would be a very nice consolation prize in the case of a quick Stormcloak victory.

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

They have Justiciars who are constantly rooting out Talos Worship, who have the powers of Judge, Jury and Executioner. Basically the Thalmor Justiciars are Gestapo.

They sound more like the Spanish Inquisition to me, but fair enough, I see your point there.

There is also a Fort to the north east of Solitude where Thalmor "interrogate" Talos worshippers (a parallel to Jews) and Stormcloaks. It's placed in a suspiciously remote location behind the northernmost mountains at the very tip of Skyrim by the sea and, though they claim they have imperial permission, there are no imperial officers present. It is the only place inhabited solely by Thalmor with the exception of the Embassies restricted areas.

Jews weren't imprisoned in this manner. Jews were either restricted to the ghettos to die of sickness and/or starvation, sent to forced work camps, or sent to death camps. In short, they were treated like animals, not prisoners. I checked this place out, and what I understood is that these prisoners are held because the Thalmor consider them a risk to their cause (probably because they know certain Thalmor secrets) or because they want to extract information from them.

There is one quest you can take to rescue the Son of a stormcloak supporter which ultimately involves storming the place (even as an imperial or altmer). There is a bugged part of the quest where you can ask Tullius to free the man, but even in modded games that have that section fixed you will still have storm the place.

I know. I did the quest. What's your point? Also, notice that the Legion knows about this place.

Now at this point it's easy to assume it's POW camp. But, you find in the prison cells there are also Khajiit, Argonian and Dunmer prisoners, of which are highly unlikely to be Talos worshippers (Dunmer commonly worship Daedra, Argonians worship the Hist and Sithis, Khajiit worship a variation of the old Aldmeri pantheon) or Stormcloak supporters (due to the fact the stormcloaks are resentful towards all non-nords).

What better choice for Imperial/Stormcloak spies? The Thalmor would immediately suspect nords, but other races have a better chance to acquire intelligence unnoticed. It could also be that these are just some poor sods who stumbled upon Thalmor secrets and are considered too dangerous to be left free.

This fits in with Altmers notorious superiority complex over other "lesser" races. What used to be an air of arrogance in earlier games has become a full blown racial supremacist culture.

Every race has a large share of bigots. The nords of Skyrim in particular. Saying an entire race has superiority complex is a bit racist. I've met plenty of nice high elves in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim.

There are a lot of Parralells between Nazis and the Thalmor. They aren't a literal reimagining of them in a fantasy setting, but they have a lot of components that smell like Fascist Nazi Germany, and I doubt that is a coincidence.

Lets' see:

Leader Worship? No. I didn't see any evidence of them worshipping a leader like the Germans worshipped Hitler. I don't even know the leader's name or title.

Systematic genocide? Again, I don't see it. A select few prisoners and selective executions of Talos Worshippers isn't genocide.

A vision of a pure elf-only Tamriel? Perhaps. It was a little unclear to me if that's their ultimate intention, so I'll leave this one.

According to the Elder Scrolls Lore, Mundus is kept together by the intervention of Talos is the only thing keeping Mundus (the world) together, avoiding its destruction and the return to Aetherius. Considering the High Elves are "direct" descendants of the Aedra whose power was drained by Lorkham to create the world, they expect to regain their divinity by destroying the world. However, the other races, including elven offsprings, will probably cease to exist, for their bloodline is too dispersed from the Divine Pantheon. The Aldmeri Dominion knows this, and is perfectly ok with coming along and commiting genocide.

Know your lore before discussing it.

 

[Doom972]

I actually think that it might be for the best if the Thalmor just take over. The empire is weak in its current state (It's basically just High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil), and the current ruling Mede dynasty doesn't have the divine right that the Septims had. Skyrim would be very weak as an independent nation, and won't be able to resist oppose the elves' numbers and skill with magic.

I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.

It does make sense, but you can actually find a journal in the Thalmor embassy that approves what the OP said.

For the better if the Nazi elves take over? Somehow I don't think they will rule more justly then the Mede empire.

Doesn't the document say the civil war continuing is just the desired state of affairs and thus a quick end must be avoided. Even if both sides weakening each other is the best outcome the empire losing a province would be a very nice consolation prize in the case of a quick Stormcloak victory.

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

They have Justiciars who are constantly rooting out Talos Worship, who have the powers of Judge, Jury and Executioner. Basically the Thalmor Justiciars are Gestapo.

They sound more like the Spanish Inquisition to me, but fair enough, I see your point there.

There is also a Fort to the north east of Solitude where Thalmor "interrogate" Talos worshippers (a parallel to Jews) and Stormcloaks. It's placed in a suspiciously remote location behind the northernmost mountains at the very tip of Skyrim by the sea and, though they claim they have imperial permission, there are no imperial officers present. It is the only place inhabited solely by Thalmor with the exception of the Embassies restricted areas.

Jews weren't imprisoned in this manner. Jews were either restricted to the ghettos to die of sickness and/or starvation, sent to forced work camps, or sent to death camps. In short, they were treated like animals, not prisoners. I checked this place out, and what I understood is that these prisoners are held because the Thalmor consider them a risk to their cause (probably because they know certain Thalmor secrets) or because they want to extract information from them.

There is one quest you can take to rescue the Son of a stormcloak supporter which ultimately involves storming the place (even as an imperial or altmer). There is a bugged part of the quest where you can ask Tullius to free the man, but even in modded games that have that section fixed you will still have storm the place.

I know. I did the quest. What's your point? Also, notice that the Legion knows about this place.

Now at this point it's easy to assume it's POW camp. But, you find in the prison cells there are also Khajiit, Argonian and Dunmer prisoners, of which are highly unlikely to be Talos worshippers (Dunmer commonly worship Daedra, Argonians worship the Hist and Sithis, Khajiit worship a variation of the old Aldmeri pantheon) or Stormcloak supporters (due to the fact the stormcloaks are resentful towards all non-nords).

What better choice for Imperial/Stormcloak spies? The Thalmor would immediately suspect nords, but other races have a better chance to acquire intelligence unnoticed. It could also be that these are just some poor sods who stumbled upon Thalmor secrets and are considered too dangerous to be left free.

This fits in with Altmers notorious superiority complex over other "lesser" races. What used to be an air of arrogance in earlier games has become a full blown racial supremacist culture.

Every race has a large share of bigots. The nords of Skyrim in particular. Saying an entire race has superiority complex is a bit racist. I've met plenty of nice high elves in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim.

There are a lot of Parralells between Nazis and the Thalmor. They aren't a literal reimagining of them in a fantasy setting, but they have a lot of components that smell like Fascist Nazi Germany, and I doubt that is a coincidence.

Lets' see:

Leader Worship? No. I didn't see any evidence of them worshipping a leader like the Germans worshipped Hitler. I don't even know the leader's name or title.

Systematic genocide? Again, I don't see it. A select few prisoners and selective executions of Talos Worshippers isn't genocide.

A vision of a pure elf-only Tamriel? Perhaps. It was a little unclear to me if that's their ultimate intention, so I'll leave this one.

According to the Elder Scrolls Lore, Mundus is kept together by the intervention of Talos is the only thing keeping Mundus (the world) together, avoiding its destruction and the return to Aetherius. Considering the High Elves are "direct" descendants of the Aedra whose power was drained by Lorkham to create the world, they expect to regain their divinity by destroying the world. However, the other races, including elven offsprings, will probably cease to exist, for their bloodline is too dispersed from the Divine Pantheon. The Aldmeri Dominion knows this, and is perfectly ok with coming along and commiting genocide.

Know your lore before discussing it.

Read the entire discussion I had with others if you want to join in. Your post is irrelevant at this point because it was discussed.

 

[Muspelheim]

I fully expected this topic to be about mods, and I am disappointed that it is not.

Anyway. Both sides are wrong, and should just bow to elven superiority.

Agreed, bow to Elven superiority, and play along, while continuing business in the shadows. As long as they get to feel superior and in charge, we get to go about our business in peace. Maybe sell 'em magic mirrors they can admire themselves in. It's the Khajiit way!

Khajiit Advisor: How's things going at the gates?

Very Sad Nord: Not good. They're nearly through. We can't withstand this siege much longer...

Frustrated Khajiit Advisor: Then make a deal!

Slightly Apprehensive Nord: What kind of a deal?

Eager Khajiit: A deal-deal!

 

[saluraropicrusa]

Besides, my main character is a member of the Dark Brotherhood. The Empire has tried to kill her TWICE, and succeeded in killing almost her entire (adoptive) family. There's no way in Oblivion she'd side with them, unless it was the easiest way to kill them in their sleep.

can you blame them? you WERE trying to kill the emperor, you started it. besides, they never would have found you if it wasn't for the leader of your "family".

Hey now, I never said anything about them being unjustified. I was just relating my thoughts on the whole civil war deal to the attitudes of my character. She's an assassin, that's what she does, and the Dark Brotherhood are the only family she has. You couldn't exactly blame her for not being bffs with the Empire after what they did, could you? Besides, Astrid just wanted everyone to be safe, and if that general who's name I've forgotten hadn't gone back on his end of the bargain, it wouldn't have ended in almost everyone at the sanctuary being killed.

 

[dfphetteplace]

I have completely avoided the Civil War plotline as I don't think either side is right, or even more right for me to pick a side.

 

[J Tyran]

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

In Valenwood and on the Summerset Isle the Thalmoor are running pogroms and "re-education programs", theres a few books and a couple of characters than mention it. They crush any dissent or disagreement in their own territory rather brutally.

1) That's a good reason to dislike the High Elves and the Imperials, not a good reason to be xenophobic. Windhelm, the Stormcloak "capital", is filled with racism against the Dark Elf population for no good reason at all.

Racism is ugly but I find it hard to have sympathy with Dunmer at all, not after seeing how racist and Xenophobic they where in their homeland. Eye for an eye is pretty crappy, always is but I find it hard to have empathy with a culture that was every bit as racist (if not worse) and kept slaves and raided neighbouring cultures to capture those slaves.

 

[Doom972]

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

In Valenwood and on the Summerset Isle the Thalmoor are running pogroms and "re-education programs", theres a few books and a couple of characters than mention it. They crush any dissent or disagreement in their own territory rather brutally.

As I said in a previous comment, that's fascism. It's not a something unique to the nazis.

 

[J Tyran]

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

In Valenwood and on the Summerset Isle the Thalmoor are running pogroms and "re-education programs", theres a few books and a couple of characters than mention it. They crush any dissent or disagreement in their own territory rather brutally.

As I said in a previous comment, that's fascism. It's not a something unique to the nazis.

Exactly, you missed something. Splitting hairs over the definition of what the Thalmoor are up to doesn't really matter, you said they didn't behave like Nazis when the story makes it clear they do.

 

[Doom972]

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

In Valenwood and on the Summerset Isle the Thalmoor are running pogroms and "re-education programs", theres a few books and a couple of characters than mention it. They crush any dissent or disagreement in their own territory rather brutally.

As I said in a previous comment, that's fascism. It's not a something unique to the nazis.

Exactly, you missed something. Splitting hairs over the definition of what the Thalmoor are up to doesn't really matter, you said they didn't behave like Nazis when the story makes it clear they do.

Just read the entire debate I had with others if you want to discuss it. I'm not going to repeat myself.

 

[Gauntlets28]

I always thought the same as many others, in regards to the idea of making Skyrim independent being a bad idea by weakening the Empire (which I always thought seemed to be plotting against the Thalmor in a way, if General Tullius's general demenour towards them was anything to go by), and so I went with them, because I'd heard that the Thalmor had burnt down Cloud Ruler Temple, and I was cheesed off!

 

[Sansha]

Imperials. While the Empire is failing, it is better to have the provinces of Tamriel united in some manner against the Thalmor. The Thalmor only outlawed Talos worship in order to kick up trouble in Skyrim in the first place, which worked perfectly. Ulfric played right into their hands.

Only problem is I find it really hard to sympathize with some of the stormcloaks worse elements and I like the imperial Jarls more.

Very much this. Every time I try to make a Stormcloak character, Whiterun gets attacked and Balgruuf gets ousted and I just have to go over to Windhelm and murder every single one of them.

Whiterun's easily my favorite city and Balgruuf's the best Jarl of them all. Having to actually attack his city never sits right with me.

THIS.

I was perfectly willing to ignore the whole civil war plotline - both sides are different varieties of asshats, and they were just gonna have staring contests until I joined up with one side anyway - but then I discovered that Ulfric was planning to invade Whiterun. That's what tore it.

Whiterun is my character's hometown; my headcanon is that he lived in that burned house outside the city when he was a kid. He lost his home once already, and he had no plans whatsoever of losing it again. So he joined the Legion as a means to an end to protect his home and all of Skyrim.

I had a similar experience, but let's tell it from the Stormcloak side.

There they were, preparing to attack Whiterun. Battle-hardened and determined to fight for Jarl Ulfric, the true High King of Skyrim. The horn sounded, and they charged. Arrows flew over their heads as Stormcloak artillery pounded the walls. They charged up the road to the gate, seeing Balgruuf himself standing on a battlement, axe in hand. The Stormcloaks came up on the first barricade, when it happened.

Over the barrier leapt a living nightmare; a horse, black as coal with eyes as blood. Atop the wicked beast rode a figure clad in fabric-like armor like forged midnight, brandishing a black blade glowing red, with silver teeth like a sabre cat's. The horse landed and thundered down the path, the blade swinging as an extension of the rider, cutting down all who wore Stormcloak blue. Arrows bounced off the rider as blades glanced off the horse as the force plowed through the Stormcloak ranks, never slower than a gallop. It was not long before they were routed and called for retreat. The horseman continued his massacre until all were out of sight or lay dead. He sheathed his sword and calmly returned to the gates of Whiterun.

I personally killed 52 Stormcloaks at Whiterun, with 101 total kills across the whole war. Yes, I counted.

 

[Soundwave]

I really don't get this whole "the empire needs to be together" argument. It's arguing for a more convoluted bureaucracy as if that would somehow make a military difference. There's no reason that an Independent Skyrim, Hammerfell, High Rock and Cyrodil couldn't form a temporary military alliance against the Thalmor, and then get on with their lives. Historically, empires have a tendency to stretch too far and find themselves unable to defend their own borders.

http://history.howstuffworks.com/historical-events/10-long-lived-empires.htm

 

[Demongeneral109]

I actually think that it might be for the best if the Thalmor just take over. The empire is weak in its current state (It's basically just High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil), and the current ruling Mede dynasty doesn't have the divine right that the Septims had. Skyrim would be very weak as an independent nation, and won't be able to resist oppose the elves' numbers and skill with magic.

I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.

It does make sense, but you can actually find a journal in the Thalmor embassy that approves what the OP said.

For the better if the Nazi elves take over? Somehow I don't think they will rule more justly then the Mede empire.

Doesn't the document say the civil war continuing is just the desired state of affairs and thus a quick end must be avoided. Even if both sides weakening each other is the best outcome the empire losing a province would be a very nice consolation prize in the case of a quick Stormcloak victory.

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

Well there is their secret agenda to end the world and return everyone (the elves) to Aetherius. The details are kinda fuzzy, but the banning of talos tied into that agenda.

I never encountered this. Where in the game does it say that? Also, a plot to destroy the world sounds more like an over-the-top cartoon villain than nazis. It's so over the top that it's just silly.

They believe in the supremacy of Mer, and specifically in the superiority of the Altmer (High Elves). They want to return society back to "the good ol' days" before the First Empire when elves (Ayleids) ruled and enslaved the humans and beastfolk. So yeah, the Nazi comparisons are there. And it would NOT be better if they started to run the show, believe me...

What made the nazis the scum that they are, is the holocaust. Unless the elves decide to systematically kill all the other races, I can't say that they are that evil. We never get to see how things look within the Thalmor territories. You could be right, but until I have a way to learn about it through the games or lore, I can't say that there's any evidence suggesting that.

As for the Thalmor not being better rulers: The ideals of real-life modern societies aren't implemented in this world. It's still a world of masters and servants. Without a strong government, Tamriel would only continue to deteriorate. The Empire is weak and definitely can't control its own lands, which is why it keeps losing them.

uhhh... they kinda want to destroy the world and become gods... thats kinda worse than nazis. Talos is one of the pillars holding the world together literally, so by weakening him they are literally destroying the world... so yeah, nazis

 

[Callate]

Mostly, I'm just aware that the Imperials are preparing to execute me when the game begins despite the fact that I don't appear to have committed any serious crimes.

And I'm not the only one they get all decapitation-happy about.

Ulfric is kind of an ass, and I'm not at all thrilled about the "choose between these two bad choices" thing that Skyrim presents, but I ultimately felt that Skyrim would have a better chance under its own rule than the Thalamor-appeasing authoritarianism of the Imperials.

Besides, by the end of the game, if the Thalamor get snippy, the Dragonborn can just kick all their asses. It's not like there was anyone in their embassy who posed much of a threat.