It's "that" Skyrim topic again...

Doom972

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J Tyran said:
Doom972 said:
Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.
In Valenwood and on the Summerset Isle the Thalmoor are running pogroms and "re-education programs", theres a few books and a couple of characters than mention it. They crush any dissent or disagreement in their own territory rather brutally.
As I said in a previous comment, that's fascism. It's not a something unique to the nazis.
 

J Tyran

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Doom972 said:
J Tyran said:
Doom972 said:
Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.
In Valenwood and on the Summerset Isle the Thalmoor are running pogroms and "re-education programs", theres a few books and a couple of characters than mention it. They crush any dissent or disagreement in their own territory rather brutally.
As I said in a previous comment, that's fascism. It's not a something unique to the nazis.
Exactly, you missed something. Splitting hairs over the definition of what the Thalmoor are up to doesn't really matter, you said they didn't behave like Nazis when the story makes it clear they do.
 

Doom972

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J Tyran said:
Doom972 said:
J Tyran said:
Doom972 said:
Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.
In Valenwood and on the Summerset Isle the Thalmoor are running pogroms and "re-education programs", theres a few books and a couple of characters than mention it. They crush any dissent or disagreement in their own territory rather brutally.
As I said in a previous comment, that's fascism. It's not a something unique to the nazis.
Exactly, you missed something. Splitting hairs over the definition of what the Thalmoor are up to doesn't really matter, you said they didn't behave like Nazis when the story makes it clear they do.
Just read the entire debate I had with others if you want to discuss it. I'm not going to repeat myself.
 

Gauntlets28

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I always thought the same as many others, in regards to the idea of making Skyrim independent being a bad idea by weakening the Empire (which I always thought seemed to be plotting against the Thalmor in a way, if General Tullius's general demenour towards them was anything to go by), and so I went with them, because I'd heard that the Thalmor had burnt down Cloud Ruler Temple, and I was cheesed off!
 

Sansha

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Imperials. While the Empire is failing, it is better to have the provinces of Tamriel united in some manner against the Thalmor. The Thalmor only outlawed Talos worship in order to kick up trouble in Skyrim in the first place, which worked perfectly. Ulfric played right into their hands.

Battleaxx90 said:
Agayek said:
Dandark said:
Only problem is I find it really hard to sympathize with some of the stormcloaks worse elements and I like the imperial Jarls more.
Very much this. Every time I try to make a Stormcloak character, Whiterun gets attacked and Balgruuf gets ousted and I just have to go over to Windhelm and murder every single one of them.

Whiterun's easily my favorite city and Balgruuf's the best Jarl of them all. Having to actually attack his city never sits right with me.
THIS.

I was perfectly willing to ignore the whole civil war plotline - both sides are different varieties of asshats, and they were just gonna have staring contests until I joined up with one side anyway - but then I discovered that Ulfric was planning to invade Whiterun. That's what tore it.

Whiterun is my character's hometown; my headcanon is that he lived in that burned house outside the city when he was a kid. He lost his home once already, and he had no plans whatsoever of losing it again. So he joined the Legion as a means to an end to protect his home and all of Skyrim.
I had a similar experience, but let's tell it from the Stormcloak side.

There they were, preparing to attack Whiterun. Battle-hardened and determined to fight for Jarl Ulfric, the true High King of Skyrim. The horn sounded, and they charged. Arrows flew over their heads as Stormcloak artillery pounded the walls. They charged up the road to the gate, seeing Balgruuf himself standing on a battlement, axe in hand. The Stormcloaks came up on the first barricade, when it happened.

Over the barrier leapt a living nightmare; a horse, black as coal with eyes as blood. Atop the wicked beast rode a figure clad in fabric-like armor like forged midnight, brandishing a black blade glowing red, with silver teeth like a sabre cat's. The horse landed and thundered down the path, the blade swinging as an extension of the rider, cutting down all who wore Stormcloak blue. Arrows bounced off the rider as blades glanced off the horse as the force plowed through the Stormcloak ranks, never slower than a gallop. It was not long before they were routed and called for retreat. The horseman continued his massacre until all were out of sight or lay dead. He sheathed his sword and calmly returned to the gates of Whiterun.

I personally killed 52 Stormcloaks at Whiterun, with 101 total kills across the whole war. Yes, I counted.
 

Soundwave

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I really don't get this whole "the empire needs to be together" argument. It's arguing for a more convoluted bureaucracy as if that would somehow make a military difference. There's no reason that an Independent Skyrim, Hammerfell, High Rock and Cyrodil couldn't form a temporary military alliance against the Thalmor, and then get on with their lives. Historically, empires have a tendency to stretch too far and find themselves unable to defend their own borders.

http://history.howstuffworks.com/historical-events/10-long-lived-empires.htm
 

Demongeneral109

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Doom972 said:
SanguiniusMagnificum said:
Doom972 said:
jacksonsspoi said:
Doom972 said:
Hades said:
Doom972 said:
I actually think that it might be for the best if the Thalmor just take over. The empire is weak in its current state (It's basically just High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil), and the current ruling Mede dynasty doesn't have the divine right that the Septims had. Skyrim would be very weak as an independent nation, and won't be able to resist oppose the elves' numbers and skill with magic.

Hades said:
I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.
It does make sense, but you can actually find a journal in the Thalmor embassy that approves what the OP said.
For the better if the Nazi elves take over? Somehow I don't think they will rule more justly then the Mede empire.

Doesn't the document say the civil war continuing is just the desired state of affairs and thus a quick end must be avoided. Even if both sides weakening each other is the best outcome the empire losing a province would be a very nice consolation prize in the case of a quick Stormcloak victory.



Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.
Well there is their secret agenda to end the world and return everyone (the elves) to Aetherius. The details are kinda fuzzy, but the banning of talos tied into that agenda.
I never encountered this. Where in the game does it say that? Also, a plot to destroy the world sounds more like an over-the-top cartoon villain than nazis. It's so over the top that it's just silly.
They believe in the supremacy of Mer, and specifically in the superiority of the Altmer (High Elves). They want to return society back to "the good ol' days" before the First Empire when elves (Ayleids) ruled and enslaved the humans and beastfolk. So yeah, the Nazi comparisons are there. And it would NOT be better if they started to run the show, believe me...
What made the nazis the scum that they are, is the holocaust. Unless the elves decide to systematically kill all the other races, I can't say that they are that evil. We never get to see how things look within the Thalmor territories. You could be right, but until I have a way to learn about it through the games or lore, I can't say that there's any evidence suggesting that.

As for the Thalmor not being better rulers: The ideals of real-life modern societies aren't implemented in this world. It's still a world of masters and servants. Without a strong government, Tamriel would only continue to deteriorate. The Empire is weak and definitely can't control its own lands, which is why it keeps losing them.
uhhh... they kinda want to destroy the world and become gods... thats kinda worse than nazis. Talos is one of the pillars holding the world together literally, so by weakening him they are literally destroying the world... so yeah, nazis
 

Callate

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Mostly, I'm just aware that the Imperials are preparing to execute me when the game begins despite the fact that I don't appear to have committed any serious crimes.

And I'm not the only one they get all decapitation-happy about.

Ulfric is kind of an ass, and I'm not at all thrilled about the "choose between these two bad choices" thing that Skyrim presents, but I ultimately felt that Skyrim would have a better chance under its own rule than the Thalamor-appeasing authoritarianism of the Imperials.

Besides, by the end of the game, if the Thalamor get snippy, the Dragonborn can just kick all their asses. It's not like there was anyone in their embassy who posed much of a threat.
 

IndieGinge

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Amaror said:
My main argument against Ulric is that he is Hitler and i don't like Hitler.
Just think about it:
A charismatic Leader, leading a nation of obviously racist people, aiming to clean their country of the evil foreigners.
Yeah there's not concentration camps or anything, but even in nazi germany these were built AFTER Hitler took over, not before.
The main difference here being that the Stormcloaks aren't actively racist or fascist. Are the Nords of Skyrim more xenophobic than most cultures? Yes. Is systemic oppression of those they dislike a part of their culture or real plans? Nope. The Nords of Windhelm (the worst hotbed of anti-nord sentiment) are indeed a bunch of racist douches towards Dunmer and Argonians, but Ulfric is most certainly NOT the reason for this. The man is apathetic towards the plight non-nords, not actively discriminating towards them. To use some rather extreme examples, Ulfric is not committing a holocaust, rather he's ignoring Rwanda and Darfur because he thinks finding independence is more important at the moment. I don't know what he'd do after he won Skyrim, but while I doubt he'd totally turn things around for the Elves and beast races, I doubt he'd round them up to kill them. The man does possess honor, even if he's a titanic douchebag. He's not doing anything good by ignoring them, but he's not truly evil.
 

Amaror

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IndieGinge said:
Amaror said:
My main argument against Ulric is that he is Hitler and i don't like Hitler.
Just think about it:
A charismatic Leader, leading a nation of obviously racist people, aiming to clean their country of the evil foreigners.
Yeah there's not concentration camps or anything, but even in nazi germany these were built AFTER Hitler took over, not before.
The main difference here being that the Stormcloaks aren't actively racist or fascist. Are the Nords of Skyrim more xenophobic than most cultures? Yes. Is systemic oppression of those they dislike a part of their culture or real plans? Nope. The Nords of Windhelm (the worst hotbed of anti-nord sentiment) are indeed a bunch of racist douches towards Dunmer and Argonians, but Ulfric is most certainly NOT the reason for this. The man is apathetic towards the plight non-nords, not actively discriminating towards them. To use some rather extreme examples, Ulfric is not committing a holocaust, rather he's ignoring Rwanda and Darfur because he thinks finding independence is more important at the moment. I don't know what he'd do after he won Skyrim, but while I doubt he'd totally turn things around for the Elves and beast races, I doubt he'd round them up to kill them. The man does possess honor, even if he's a titanic douchebag. He's not doing anything good by ignoring them, but he's not truly evil.
Excuse me but are you suggesting here that the suppression of the jewish people is a part of german culture? I really hope not.
Anyway, do you really think Hitler somehow invented antisemitism? The hatred of jews was already present in nearly all of Europe. He used this hatred, to gain support among the populous. Which is exactly what Ulfric is doing.
My recollection i a bit shacky but isn't "Skyrim for the Nords" a moto of the stormcloaks? Gee, that sounds familiar, were did i heard that before?
You have to consider, that Hitler didn't start with the Holocaust. That came later. In the Beginning of his "Career" Hitler was a political rebel. With his initial goal to fight the supression germany faced as a result of losing the first World War.
The Holocaust and the Second World War started AFTER he had taken control of Germany and "freed it of the supression by the alliance".
Maybe they won't go the same way, but their starts are pretty much exactly the same.
 

IndieGinge

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Amaror said:
IndieGinge said:
Amaror said:
My main argument against Ulric is that he is Hitler and i don't like Hitler.
Just think about it:
A charismatic Leader, leading a nation of obviously racist people, aiming to clean their country of the evil foreigners.
Yeah there's not concentration camps or anything, but even in nazi germany these were built AFTER Hitler took over, not before.
The main difference here being that the Stormcloaks aren't actively racist or fascist. Are the Nords of Skyrim more xenophobic than most cultures? Yes. Is systemic oppression of those they dislike a part of their culture or real plans? Nope. The Nords of Windhelm (the worst hotbed of anti-nord sentiment) are indeed a bunch of racist douches towards Dunmer and Argonians, but Ulfric is most certainly NOT the reason for this. The man is apathetic towards the plight non-nords, not actively discriminating towards them. To use some rather extreme examples, Ulfric is not committing a holocaust, rather he's ignoring Rwanda and Darfur because he thinks finding independence is more important at the moment. I don't know what he'd do after he won Skyrim, but while I doubt he'd totally turn things around for the Elves and beast races, I doubt he'd round them up to kill them. The man does possess honor, even if he's a titanic douchebag. He's not doing anything good by ignoring them, but he's not truly evil.
Excuse me but are you suggesting here that the suppression of the jewish people is a part of german culture? I really hope not.
Anyway, do you really think Hitler somehow invented antisemitism? The hatred of jews was already present in nearly all of Europe. He used this hatred, to gain support among the populous. Which is exactly what Ulfric is doing.
My recollection i a bit shacky but isn't "Skyrim for the Nords" a moto of the stormcloaks? Gee, that sounds familiar, were did i heard that before?
You have to consider, that Hitler didn't start with the Holocaust. That came later. In the Beginning of his "Career" Hitler was a political rebel. With his initial goal to fight the supression germany faced as a result of losing the first World War.
The Holocaust and the Second World War started AFTER he had taken control of Germany and "freed it of the supression by the alliance".
Maybe they won't go the same way, but their starts are pretty much exactly the same.
Yeah, that bit about culture was poorly written. My bad. Nazi Germany certainly did internalize anti-Semitic thought though, directly because the Nazi's had them do so. Also Hitler had a long history of anti-Semitic thought and rhetoric through his life, in pointed contrast to Ulfric just focusing on the Nords in "positive" way, while ignoring the plights of other races. Apathy and psychotic hatred aren't equal. But whatever, you're Godwinning this anyways. I'm done. Peace out.