J.J. Abrams "Made a Mistake" With Leia in Force Awakens

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

whats with the sudden shitting all over the Force Awakens? Maybe it's the Phantom Menace all over again but I still think it's a good film. Now everyone is treating it like "explosive diarrhea" or "the worst thing to happen to star wars cannon", you serious?

They're trying to be edgy because liking things is so last decade.

Apparently accepting that people's criticism is genuine, rather than just an attempt at being "edgy", is also so last decade.

Apparently making a joke and people taking it as a joke is also last decade. =P

Seriously though, its funny to me that it always seems there's a sheep factor involved with criticism. One person makes a comment and suddenly an influx of similar comments follow. I've no issue with criticism in general but there are times where I'd like to see more than just negativity without anything of substance to back up the critique. It feels less genuine without it. But it could just be me. I mean usually I'll give more than just a negative comment, usually with substantive impressions and analysis to back it up. Everyone has the right to not like something, I just would prefer in forums that people at least add to the discussion more than a negative voice. Otherwise it just feels like shitting on it for the sake of shitting on it.

 

[Neverhoodian]

And here I thought this was going to be about how Leia's potential was pretty much wasted. Compare this to her earlier escapades and it's clear she was completely sidelined in this. I still think it would have been cool to make her a Jedi...you know, what with RotJ making all that fuss about her being Force-sensitive like her brother.

It's one of a few niggling issues I have with the movie. Don't get me wrong, I still like TFA. It's certainly better than Episodes II and III for my money. It just didn't blow me away like it did for some folks.

Personally, I always thought "the worst thing to be canon" was most of the Extended Universe tripe. I'm really glad it's all gone, now. About the only part of it I'll miss is Timothy Zhan's Thrawn trilogy, they were awesome.
Oh, and I suppose Splinter of the Mind's Eye is also no longer canon, if it ever was. That's sad, it was a great book.

THANK you. I'm tired of fanatical Star Wars fans who praise the pre-Disney EU like it's some untouchable pillar of quality. Even as a kid I thought most of its stories were silly. Palpatine clones, IG-88 becoming the second Death Star, the OP as fuck Sun Crusher, etc. I pretty much gave up on the old EU once all that Yuuzhan Vong nonsense came about. I decided to come up with my own headcanon, picking and choosing what I liked while ignoring the rest. Works like a charm.

As for Splinter, it's always been a gray area, even with the "canonize ALL THE THINGS" attitude of the old EU. There are many story elements that don't make sense when compared to the films, to the point where it's nearly impossible to reconcile them without undergoing some serious retconning and other mental gymnastics (not to mention the squick factor of Luke and Leia's blossoming romance in the book). That's what happens when you draw inspiration from a proposed low-budget sequel to Episode IV in case it flopped, then publish it before the proper Episode V emerged.

Don't ever believe Lucas when he claims that he always had a cohesive plan for the movies. Splinter is a clear indicator that he was making it up as he went along. That said, the book is indeed a fascinating read, a window into what Star Wars might have become if it hadn't caught on with the general public.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

whats with the sudden shitting all over the Force Awakens? Maybe it's the Phantom Menace all over again but I still think it's a good film. Now everyone is treating it like "explosive diarrhea" or "the worst thing to happen to star wars cannon", you serious?

They're trying to be edgy because liking things is so last decade.

Apparently accepting that people's criticism is genuine, rather than just an attempt at being "edgy", is also so last decade.

Apparently making a joke and people taking it as a joke is also last decade. =P

I was sort of wondering whether you were joking, but the number of times I've seen people genuinely disregard criticism as nothing more than an attempt at being contrary makes me lean more towards the "not a joke" side when I encounter similar posts, especially in regards to massively popular franchises like Star Wars.

Seriously though, its funny to me that it always seems there's a sheep factor involved with criticism. One person makes a comment and suddenly an influx of similar comments follow. I've no issue with criticism in general but there are times where I'd like to see more than just negativity without anything of substance to back up the critique. It feels less genuine without it. But it could just be me. I mean usually I'll give more than just a negative comment, usually with substantive impressions and analysis to back it up. Everyone has the right to not like something, I just would prefer in forums that people at least add to the discussion more than a negative voice. Otherwise it just feels like shitting on it for the sake of shitting on it.

True, but the same can be said the praise as well, and pretty much any other opinion. Although I get what you mean about the lack of substance to back up the negativity, but I'm really not seeing all that much surrounding this film.

 

[Zontar]

The only way I find myself able to interpret that this mess up "spoiled something" is that it's going to be revealed that Leia and Luke had an incest baby...I really, really, really hope I'm wrong <.<

I think it's safe to say that isn't going to happen. Hell I doubt they're stupid enough to make Rey a Skywalker at all, even with what happened in Force Awakens I doubt they're really that bad at basic storytelling.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

True, but the same can be said the praise as well, and pretty much any other opinion. Although I get what you mean about the lack of substance to back up the negativity, but I'm really not seeing all that much surrounding this film.

Spoiler: Cut for size and possibly semi-irrelevant

The ones that bother me are the hyperbolic statements. From an objective point of view, TFA is better than the prequels, even if people don't like it. It also hardly "ruins canon" like some statements have made. Reason I say this is, with all due respect to people's subjective feelings, canon is not up to the fans. Its up to the owners of the IP and the people tasked to write the story. Whether we as fans like it or not, the canon is just what it is regardless of perceived quality. And we as fans have the choice to discard canon whenever we feel like it, which is why headcanon exists.
When Disney did away with the EU canon as "Legends," even though a part of me died a little I was kind of happy because the whole of EU was a mess of conflicting stories. Because of how Lucas would flipflop on what was and wasn't canon, it sort of wrecked any continuity of story. Its why Karen Traviss quit writing for Star Wars, due to Lucas basically approving then undoing her entire Mandalorian plots and history. Sure it was his canon to decide, but damn was it maddening. I mean I respect that it was his to do with as he pleased, but there could have been more care in how he did so.
Anyway, Disney sweeping aside the EU stories gave the movies a chance to take things forward without retelling a confusing, conflicting series of stories. Sure it killed off hopes of a Thrawn movie, and that hurt. But ultimately it gave the new films a chance to stand on their own.
I feel like a lot of the criticism is unfair, because it does not take into account there's an actual arc to this trilogy whereas the original films weren't written as a trilogy, Lucas didn't know if A New Hope would do well enough to warrant a sequel. There's a lot I found to criticize with TFA, it was far from perfect. But it was markedly better than the Prequels. Sure it had a lot of similarities to the first film, but I feel there's an underlying notion to why it was presented that way. It may have resembled A New Hope, but there was a lot more to it than just parroting. That criticism, without looking at the deeper presentation feels like just surface criticism without probing into why the film was presented as such.
Kylo Ren wanted to be Darth Vader, but he doesn't quite capture who Vader was, he can't quite cut it. The First Order wants to be The Empire, but they're like kids cosplaying. Rey is totally not Luke, she's capable and self-sufficient, Luke was mostly helpless except for being a good pilot. The parallels are there but they're not as derivative as people make them out to be...

I guess my point is I understand people have criticisms, but I feel there are some criticisms that aren't being fair. I may have a lot of expectations for people to be at least somewhat thorough with their criticism. It may not even be fair to some. I just want some honesty beyond what I perceive to be knee-jerk reactions.

 

[Mr_Spanky]

whats with the sudden shitting all over the Force Awakens? Maybe it's the Phantom Menace all over again but I still think it's a good film. Now everyone is treating it like "explosive diarrhea" or "the worst thing to happen to star wars cannon", you serious?

Yeah . . . . I mean I don't think anyone's pretending that it's opened up a new paradigm in the movie buisness but cmon . . . I for one (and I really dont give a shit how much of a plebian it makes me) enjoyed the movie and thought it was a return to form for the star wars series after the somewhat problematic prequels.

Certainly when compared to the prequels this one was above and beyond better.

 

[Zydrate]

whats with the sudden shitting all over the Force Awakens? Maybe it's the Phantom Menace all over again but I still think it's a good film. Now everyone is treating it like "explosive diarrhea" or "the worst thing to happen to star wars cannon", you serious?

I honestly thought the reception to the movie was decent (I liked it, even with a couple flaws - Mostly that it basically just being a remake of A New Hope) so I'm wondering where all this bile is coming from.

 

[happyninja42]

whats with the sudden shitting all over the Force Awakens? Maybe it's the Phantom Menace all over again but I still think it's a good film. Now everyone is treating it like "explosive diarrhea" or "the worst thing to happen to star wars cannon", you serious?

I honestly thought the reception to the movie was decent (I liked it, even with a couple flaws - Mostly that it basically just being a remake of A New Hope) so I'm wondering where all this bile is coming from.

I think the problem might be the person you quoted is reading threads/articles specifically about pointing out the flaws/criticisms of the movie, which naturally tends to attract people with an opinion on that topic, likely a negative one. So it seems like "sudden shitting all over the Force Awakens". I suspect, if a person looked for threads talking about the positive aspects of the movie, they'd find a ton of them, overflowing with praise. Basic echo chamber issues I think.

I mean, I listen to a Star Wars roleplaying podcast every other week, and right after Awakens came out, they had a special podcast, just to fanboy out about the movie, for 3 hours. And while some liked it, some didn't, most did, and even they were able to point out some of the flaws in the movie. But the general opinion was "Yeah it wasn't perfect, there were some parts that felt clunky, but I didn't really care! Because it actually felt like a Star Wars movie again! And I had fun! I enjoyed the ride they took me on, and want to see more of that world." Which is a pretty good opinion in my book, as it's one that I share. xD Hell, most of the people on this forum seem to be of the same general opinion. "It was fun and enjoyable, with flaws."

 

[Jadak]

I was thinking that when Ren is talking to the helmet of Darth Vader, they could re-edit it so that instead of the helmet, it's a CGI Force ghost of Hayden Christensen. That would really kick things up a notch.

Come on now, they can keep the helmet. Makes more sense to let him talk to it, then he hears a response, pan the camera and it's the Christensen Ghost standing beside him.

But the real question is, what would the ghost think of having Darth Vader's helmet worshipped? XD
Regardless of which version of Anakin's ghost you're talking about, they represent his 'good' side, not Darth Vader...

Eh, that logic annoys me. I mean, he was Darth Vader before the suit too. They'd have to CGI the child actor or at least ensure it was short-hair Christensen to be proper about it.

 

[Mikeybb]

They should reshoot it, but then, the entire movie was pretty dumb.

Maybe add a Han Solo force ghost while they're at it, but portrayed by whichever actor they find to play young Han in the standalone movies.

I was thinking that when Ren is talking to the helmet of Darth Vader, they could re-edit it so that instead of the helmet, it's a CGI Force ghost of Hayden Christensen. That would really kick things up a notch.

This is how Lucas was seduced to the Dark Side, you know?

"I'll just fix this little bit here." He thought and then suddenly Greedo is shooting first and you know where that ends up?
Gungans.

Let's hope JJ has a more pure heart and keeps away from that darkened, insidious editing suite.

On topic: I kinda got the intended desperation of helping a wounded Finn over hugging as implied by the movie, but it really would have been a perfect moment for a glance and the unspoken (or roared) shared loss between them as they rushed by.

Maybe It could be added in a bluray rele-OH GOD, IT'S HAPPENING TO ME TOO!

 

[PunkRex]

I actually noticed this, kinda bugged me at the time.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

..............That's the 'mistake' he made? and here I thought this was going to be some internal realization that he shortchanged Leia when it came to the force and jedi stuff

but you know

sure whatever

But in the original trilogy Leia never expressed a desire to become a Jedi. Honestly, I always thought the EU was ridiculously shallow in shoving her into jedi training for no damn reason.

 

[happyninja42]

..............That's the 'mistake' he made? and here I thought this was going to be some internal realization that he shortchanged Leia when it came to the force and jedi stuff

but you know

sure whatever

Well, there is a lot of debate about that. Considering he's said straight up that she just didn't go down that road, and was more focused on the Resistance, and the New Republic, she just didn't have time for Force stuff. She let her brother handle that stuff. That's not a "mistake", so much as a writing choice with the plot. And honestly I don't really have much issue with it. It was always implied (at least from what EU stuff I read), that her great "gift" to the Force, was to give birth to strong Force-Sensitives. Not that she would be a powerful Jedi herself. Yeah sure, some stories went down that road, but most that I saw were "your womb is really valuable! So get busy popping out Force babies!". And in that context, well, mission accomplished. She had Ben Solo, who is powerful in the Force. Dark, yeah, but again, that's not a new thing for the Solo children either. One of them went dark too. So it's really not that big of a deviation from...well anything. Because the fans opinions on what Leia should do, isn't set in stone, and they're under no obligation to fulfill a fans wish on how a character could be portrayed. There is no Star Wars Bible, that says "Thou Shalt Have Leia Be A Badass Jedi". He can take her story how he wants.

And frankly, I think some of that is also probably due to the fact that Ms. Fisher is kind of nuts. I'm not really sure how good her acting would be if her role was any bigger at this point. I mean, honestly, she wasn't very good in my opinion. She kept talking through her teeth, like she had her jaw wired shut or something. She sounded like she was just reading lines. I didn't really get much connection with her. So I think (and this is just my theory, I have no evidence for this), that they intentionally downplayed her part in the story, due to the instability of the actress. Besides, if you are going to have her be some badass Jedi, then she's going to be very integral to the plot of a movie called Force Awakens. And frankly, I don't think she's that good of an actress to be able to handle that much legwork in the script. Also, it would then have to have a reason that both of them left and vanished into myth, and now you're pushing credibility with your plot. The Vanishing Luke plot, with the map, is thin at best on it's own, now having 2 Vanishing Skywalkers is even harder to believe.

 

[ZeroAxis]

I don't think it was that big a mistake to an overall pretty good movie. Thinking through it further, I would figure that Chewy might not want to linger around force-sensitive Leia long enough for her to get the impression that he shot her son in the gut with a laser rifle that was sending armored soldier flying half way off the battlefield

 

[happyninja42]

I don't think it was that big a mistake to an overall pretty good movie. Thinking through it further, I would figure that Chewy might not want to linger around force-sensitive Leia long enough for her to get the impression that he shot her son in the gut with a laser rifle that was sending armored soldier flying half way off the battlefield

Eh, I don't know. To me, this isn't likely how Chewie would react. That instead, he would see the wife/lover of his dearest friend, mother to his child, and also a personal friend of his for several decades. And she's standing there, and he's the last person to see their mutual friend alive. In fact, you could say that in the entire world, Chewie probably loves Han as much, if not more than Leia, considering their history. They would be the 2 people most traumatized by the loss. To say they wouldn't, with their mutual history, even acknowledge each other as they got into line of sight, and just totally ignored each other, seems unrealistic to how people usually grieve.

In my personal experience, whenever there was a death of someone I knew, whether it effected me directly or not, I would always look for the people who I knew would be the most effected by the loss, and try to offer them comfort. I see no reason why this wouldn't apply a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away.

They should reshoot it, but then, the entire movie was pretty dumb.

I'm glad that enough time has passed since release that we can finally say that without an inevitable dogpile of rage. It wasn't a good movie, it was a nostalgic attempt to pick pockets one last time. How much it turns out to be an actual reboot/remake rather than a new series also remains to be seen. Right now, it's pretty sickeningly familiar, and unforgivable given the wealth of writing that could have been drawn from.

Eh, that's just an opinion, not a fact. You can say you didn't like it sure, but to say as fact that it wasn't a good movie, I would have to disagree. It was well made, it had flaws, but name me a movie without those. Some people liked it more than others, but I wouldn't say it's a bad movie, especially compared to most of the stuff that gets released these days to the theaters. Not just Star Wars stuff, but just movies in general. It was a competently made film, with some issues, that are of varying quality depending on the viewer.

 

[Scarim Coral]

Honestly, I never really paid attention to that and I pretty much forgotten about that scene aswell.

 

[Hero in a half shell]

They should reshoot it, but then, the entire movie was pretty dumb.

Maybe add a Han Solo force ghost while they're at it, but portrayed by whichever actor they find to play young Han in the standalone movies.

I was thinking that when Ren is talking to the helmet of Darth Vader, they could re-edit it so that instead of the helmet, it's a CGI Force ghost of Hayden Christensen. That would really kick things up a notch.

They could edit in only Hayden Christensen's head, floating and making faces like Holly from Red Dwarf.