Jim Sterling in court.

TrulyBritish

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Albino Boo said:
Contrary to the opinion of most people in this thread there are legal grounds to sue. Especially because the allegation maintains that Sterling knew the allegation to be false and made it anyway with full intention of retracting for the purposes of personal gain. I'm not sure that it's provable without a lot of legal expenses but it's not a crazy case. The claim for damages is broken down in the normal way that US damage claims normally are
Out of interest, would the court account for past experience? Digihom I believe has actually stolen artwork before (a piece of promotional art for the Slaughtering Grounds had in fact been taken from Deviantart without permission) which Digihom then removed once that was found out. There may have been another incident mentioned in the Interview between Jim and Robert that was about them using artwork that had been on Shutterstock illegally which they bought but I can't say that's entirely on them.

OT: I'm not entirely sure they'll go ahead with this, after all they did say they'd take Jim to court at the time of the Slaughtering Grounds meltdown but I guess maybe they're desperate at this point. Kind of sucks about the harassment though, but can Jim really blamed on that? He's done videos in the past against harassing people and has specifically said he hates naming particular people like Molyneaux and Pitchford in case they get harassed. It's seems kind of odd to think of a Judge siding with them considering their entire business method, and it's not like Jim has consistently misrepresented what they've done, the only things I can think of are:
1) The mentioned accusation of theft which he retracted.
2) In the Interview claiming they'd made 5 games in a year and a half(?) and not six.
3) Accusing "Six Nights at Susie's" of violence against women when according to the dev you could beat men as well (though that wasn't in the trailer).

Kind of interested to see how this will go down.
 

Albino Boo

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TrulyBritish said:
Albino Boo said:
Contrary to the opinion of most people in this thread there are legal grounds to sue. Especially because the allegation maintains that Sterling knew the allegation to be false and made it anyway with full intention of retracting for the purposes of personal gain. I'm not sure that it's provable without a lot of legal expenses but it's not a crazy case. The claim for damages is broken down in the normal way that US damage claims normally are
Out of interest, would the court account for past experience? Digihom I believe has actually stolen artwork before (a piece of promotional art for the Slaughtering Grounds had in fact been taken from Deviantart without permission) which Digihom then removed once that was found out. There may have been another incident mentioned in the Interview between Jim and Robert that was about them using artwork that had been on Shutterstock illegally which they bought but I can't say that's entirely on them.

OT: I'm not entirely sure they'll go ahead with this, after all they did say they'd take Jim to court at the time of the Slaughtering Grounds meltdown but I guess maybe they're desperate at this point. Kind of sucks about the harassment though, but can Jim really blamed on that? He's done videos in the past against harassing people and has specifically said he hates naming particular people like Molyneaux and Pitchford in case they get harassed. It's seems kind of odd to think of a Judge siding with them considering their entire business method, and it's not like Jim has consistently misrepresented what they've done, the only things I can think of are:
1) The mentioned accusation of theft which he retracted.
2) In the Interview claiming they'd made 5 games in a year and a half(?) and not six.
3) Accusing "Six Nights at Susie's" of violence against women when according to the dev you could beat men as well (though that wasn't in the trailer).

Kind of interested to see how this will go down.
There is no smoke without fire is not a defence. If you make a specific allegation then you have to be able to back it up with admissible evidence.
 

Lightknight

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The damage incurred on digital homicide was certainly caused by Jim revealing how shitty the game was. In order for them to successfully claim damages they need to show how the libel damaged him as opposed to Jim's larger work.

Unfortunately, if he claimed that they stole something and they didn't, then it is indeed libel and they would have a potential case. But Jim's legal defense would hopefully show that we don't think they're a joke because of that, we think they're a joke because their game sucked as Jim demonstrated and their response to him was atrocious. Whether or not they appropriated an asset doesn't mean shit to most of us. So how they can claim damages from that specific line is beyond me. They damaged themselves far more than Jim ever did and Jim's only damage against them was just in spotlighting what they'd done and how they responded to said spotlight.
 

TrulyBritish

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Albino Boo said:
There is no smoke without fire is not a defence. If you make a specific allegation then you have to be able to back it up with admissible evidence.
Ok, sounds fair. So is it possible for Digihom to actually win this suit? Just seems odd the court wouldn't account for their behaviour outside of this matter, but then I don't think they've actually done anything that's illegal have they? It's not illegal to "Asset Flip" as far as I know, so unless there's something illegal about them selling under multiple names? I mean, I'd say they're ethically wrong but that's not the same.
 

Raika

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The thing about slander and libel is that they have to be demonstrable and malicious falsehoods perpetuated through widely distributed spoken word and written print respectively. Jim Sterling definitely qualifies as widely distributed and I even think he's pretty popular (I personally think he's wonderful and would love to kiss him on the mouth with tongue). However, from what I'm given to understand, all of the stuff he's said about Digital Homicide is kind of demonstrably true. I don't think (although I could be wrong) that Sterling puts things out there without proof unless they're just his opinions, i.e. "vote Donald Trump because I breathe through my skin" or "Mad Max was crap."
 

Lightknight

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TrulyBritish said:
Albino Boo said:
There is no smoke without fire is not a defence. If you make a specific allegation then you have to be able to back it up with admissible evidence.
Ok, sounds fair. So is it possible for Digihom to actually win this suit? Just seems odd the court wouldn't account for their behaviour outside of this matter, but then I don't think they've actually done anything that's illegal have they? It's not illegal to "Asset Flip" as far as I know, so unless there's something illegal about them selling under multiple names? I mean, I'd say they're ethically wrong but that's not the same.
While it is possible for them to win the suit, they would need to show that it was this libel that damaged them and not the wealth of other things Jim said and that they did.

I mean, I didn't really care that they may have stolen an asset. I just cared that Jim clearly showed their game was terrible and that their response to his video was atrocious. Heck, does their video contain potential libel too?

That being said, a win on their part is possible. Stating that they stole an asset they did not steal is defamatory. I just don't think it caused damages or any damages it caused were entirely dwarfed by their insanely unprofessional antics and the terribly low quality of their game. A decent lawyer would hopefully keep any damages at a minimum with this in mind.
 

IceForce

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How can the accusations be libelous and slanderous if they're true? Because DigiHom have fully admitted that they've stolen artwork directly from google image search without ever asking nor crediting the creators of that artwork. And this is what Jim (correctly) accused them of.

For example, the 'blood splatter' effect:





http://archive.is/ry1cB#selection-653.127-653.314
 

MCerberus

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By bringing this to court DH effectively sued themselves. How you may ask? Discovery. Day one in discovery: "here is proof of claims, I, Jim Sterling has made" followed by, "Plantiffs claims are dismissed. They are assessed court costs" followed by, "and here is the documented monetary and time losses that I, Jim Sterling have incurred dealing with their harassment of my legal rights as an artist in this counter-claim. I wasn't going to bother, but hey now we're at a point where, hey fuck 'em"

I'm half-expecting him to spend every dime he makes suing and getting extra channel attention from the proceedings on pogs
 

IceForce

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Zhukov said:
http://www.digitalhomicide.ninja/#!lawsuits-information/psyu3

Take a moment to read this.

It's reads like something that was put through a translator. I'd assume it was written by someone who was not a native English speaker, but the Digihom guys are English-speaking Americans.
My favorite bit of that is probably this:

"I have been falsely accused of: -[bulletpoint]- Being incompetent and unable to perform my job"

Sorry DigiHom, I wouldn't say that it was "falsely".
 

Albino Boo

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TrulyBritish said:
Albino Boo said:
There is no smoke without fire is not a defence. If you make a specific allegation then you have to be able to back it up with admissible evidence.
Ok, sounds fair. So is it possible for Digihom to actually win this suit? Just seems odd the court wouldn't account for their behaviour outside of this matter, but then I don't think they've actually done anything that's illegal have they? It's not illegal to "Asset Flip" as far as I know, so unless there's something illegal about them selling under multiple names? I mean, I'd say they're ethically wrong but that's not the same.
To be honest, I have no idea. I dont know the wording of the Arizona law so I don't know how shaded the burden of proof is for the case. The basic principle is that Sterling has to prove that his allegations are true and Digihom have to demonstrate to what degree they have been damaged by the allegations alone and not legitimate criticism.

Not accounting for issues outside the matter in hand is standard principle of English common law for the last 1200 years. It works both ways, someone with history of making false allegations and issuing retractions can't be assumed to have made a false allegation again.
 

rcs619

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Raika said:
The thing about slander and libel is that they have to be demonstrable and malicious falsehoods perpetuated through widely distributed spoken word and written print respectively. Jim Sterling definitely qualifies as widely distributed and I even think he's pretty popular (I personally think he's wonderful and would love to kiss him on the mouth with tongue). However, from what I'm given to understand, all of the stuff he's said about Digital Homicide is kind of demonstrably true. I don't think (although I could be wrong) that Sterling puts things out there without proof unless they're just his opinions, i.e. "vote Donald Trump because I breathe through my skin" or "Mad Max was crap."
The libel and slander is because of one article he wrote where he said that they'd stolen artwork for one of their games from deviantart (something they have absolutely done before), and it turns out that they'd actually bought that piece of artwork from stuttershock. Jim immediately corrected the article as soon as he found out, but under Arizona law you can still sue someone for libel/slander even if they retract the original statement.

DH actually told him in a phonecall that they couldn't sue him over his videos because he's connected with Maker studios, but that his blog was a personal project and therefor more vulnerable. They're basically bringing him to court on the tiniest, pettiest technicality and just hoping that it sticks.

The assault charges, I assume, are because they really think he directed his fans to harass them. Good luck proving that when all Jim has ever said is *don't* harass people he talks about.

Either way, they still have to demonstrate that they were *damaged* by that case of libel/slander, which I don't think they can. It was one sentence in a much larger article, and everything Jim has ever said about their games in video form is covered under fair-use and criticism laws.

Personally, I think they know how weak their case is, and that this is just a scam. Get a bunch of donations then drop the case, or pray that Jim will cave in and settle with them out of court. Or maybe they even believe it. It's just two brothers, so who knows what they believe after talking in an echo-chamber for so long. There is no butthurt as strong or as deep as someone who thinks they're more talented than they actually are getting criticized.
 

cleric of the order

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Dizchu said:
Oh my god. Massive EMOTIONAL damage? I... what... is this how litigation works in the United States?

Have these two loons been taking notes from Donald Trump?
I'd hazard this thing was common enough to see the rise of Textualism through folks like Scalia.
 

Lightknight

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IceForce said:
How can the accusations be libelous and slanderous if they're true? Because DigiHom have fully admitted that they've stolen artwork directly from google image search without ever asking nor crediting the creators of that artwork. And this is what Jim (correctly) accused them of.

For example, the 'blood splatter' effect:





http://archive.is/ry1cB#selection-653.127-653.314
The claim made in the OP was that he said they stole something that they had actually purchased. I assumed it was something else I wasn't aware of.

If there's nothing else then yeah, it isn't libel.
 

Exley97_v1legacy

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Albino Boo said:
TrulyBritish said:
Albino Boo said:
There is no smoke without fire is not a defence. If you make a specific allegation then you have to be able to back it up with admissible evidence.
Ok, sounds fair. So is it possible for Digihom to actually win this suit? Just seems odd the court wouldn't account for their behaviour outside of this matter, but then I don't think they've actually done anything that's illegal have they? It's not illegal to "Asset Flip" as far as I know, so unless there's something illegal about them selling under multiple names? I mean, I'd say they're ethically wrong but that's not the same.
To be honest, I have no idea. I dont know the wording of the Arizona law so I don't know how shaded the burden of proof is for the case. The basic principle is that Sterling has to prove that his allegations are true and Digihom have to demonstrate to what degree they have been damaged by the allegations alone and not legitimate criticism.

Not accounting for issues outside the matter in hand is standard principle of English common law for the last 1200 years. It works both ways, someone with history of making false allegations and issuing retractions can be assumed to have made a false allegation again.
Actually, in libel/slander/defamation cases, it's the plaintiff/accuser who must prove that the statements made by the defendant are false. So in this case, Digital Homicide has to prove that it did not lift assets or steal artwork, not the other the way around. Also, DH has to prove that Sterling's statements caused the company harm, and that the statements were made without sufficient fact-checking or verification. In other words, if a judge determines that it's reasonable, based on the information available at the time, for Sterling to believe that DH stole assets, then he or she will likely toss the suit.

Two more things worth mentioning -- First, in at least one example, Sterling corrected one of his stories/videos to reflect the fact that some of the images were sold on Shutterstock, so the allegation that the images in question were taken without permission form the original artist was clarified/corrected. And usually, if a false claim or report is corrected within a timely manner, it's hard to prove libel (of course this depends on a judge's definition of "timely").

And second, I don't know how this will shake out, but it's possible that DH could be considered as what's known as a "limited-purpose public figure" since the company has been very public and outspoken about its spat with Sterling, which could be seen as courting the media limelight. And the standard for proving libel in cases of public figures, limited purpose or otherwise, is VERY hard in the U.S. In addition to the standards listed above, public figures must also prove "malice," i.e. that the person or publication that libeled (or slandered) them did so either knowing the information was false or with reckless disregard for facts, or that there was definitive intent to harm. I don't know that a judge would accept the argument that DH is a limited-purpose public figure, but if it was accepted, then DH's chances of winning, which were already slim, become much, much worse.
 

Albino Boo

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Exley97 said:
Albino Boo said:
TrulyBritish said:
Albino Boo said:
There is no smoke without fire is not a defence. If you make a specific allegation then you have to be able to back it up with admissible evidence.
Ok, sounds fair. So is it possible for Digihom to actually win this suit? Just seems odd the court wouldn't account for their behaviour outside of this matter, but then I don't think they've actually done anything that's illegal have they? It's not illegal to "Asset Flip" as far as I know, so unless there's something illegal about them selling under multiple names? I mean, I'd say they're ethically wrong but that's not the same.
To be honest, I have no idea. I dont know the wording of the Arizona law so I don't know how shaded the burden of proof is for the case. The basic principle is that Sterling has to prove that his allegations are true and Digihom have to demonstrate to what degree they have been damaged by the allegations alone and not legitimate criticism.

Not accounting for issues outside the matter in hand is standard principle of English common law for the last 1200 years. It works both ways, someone with history of making false allegations and issuing retractions can be assumed to have made a false allegation again.
Actually, in libel/slander/defamation cases, it's the plaintiff/accuser who must prove that the statements made by the defendant are false. So in this case, Digital Homicide has to prove that it did not lift assets or steal artwork, not the other the way around. Also, DH has to prove that Sterling's statements caused the company harm, and that the statements were made without sufficient fact-checking or verification. In other words, if a judge determines that it's reasonable, based on the information available at the time, for Sterling to believe that DH stole assets, then he or she will likely toss the suit.

Two more things worth mentioning -- First, in at least one example, Sterling corrected one of his stories/videos to reflect the fact that some of the images were sold on Shutterstock, so the allegation that the images in question were taken without permission form the original artist was clarified/corrected. And usually, if a false claim or report is corrected within a timely manner, it's hard to prove libel (of course this depends on a judge's definition of "timely").

And second, I don't know how this will shake out, but it's possible that DH could be considered as what's known as a "limited-purpose public figure" since the company has been very public and outspoken about its spat with Sterling, which could be seen as courting the media limelight. And the standard for proving libel in cases of public figures, limited purpose or otherwise, is VERY hard in the U.S. In addition to the standards listed above, public figures must also prove "malice," i.e. that the person or publication that libeled (or slandered) them did so either knowing the information was false or with reckless disregard for facts, or that there was definitive intent to harm. I don't know that a judge would accept the argument that DH is a limited-purpose public figure, but if it was accepted, then DH's chances of winning, which were already slim, become much, much worse.
Small but significant point Arizona allows Sterling to be sued even if there is a retraction.
 

TrulyBritish

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Musou Tensei said:
I would wish for them to win but that is most probably not gonna happen :(
Huh? Why would you want Digihom to win this?

OT: According to that Neogaf thread Digihom ar asking for a whopping $11 mil in damages!
There evidence seems rather self-contradictory as well, no idea what they're planning to get out of this.
 

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Musou Tensei said:
I would wish for them to win but that is most probably not gonna happen :(
Out of curiosity, why's that?
 

elvor0

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TrulyBritish said:
Musou Tensei said:
I would wish for them to win but that is most probably not gonna happen :(
Huh? Why would you want Digihom to win this?

OT: According to that Neogaf thread Digihom ar asking for a whopping $11 mil in damages!
There evidence seems rather self-contradictory as well, no idea what they're planning to get out of this.
I can only assume because he doesn't like Jim. Which is a stupid ass reason.

Musou Tensei said:
I would wish for them to win but that is most probably not gonna happen :(
Why? What possible good do you think will come of this exactly? Even if you don't like Jim, you must be able to realise that them winning this case would not be a good thing. In fact, it would be an awful thing, because it would set precedent to sue anyone who criticises you.

It's actually kind of funny that you say you wish they could win, considering you, not so long ago said that developers who release buggy broken games should be fined. DH are very, very guilty of releasing buggy broken games.