Jimquisition: A Different Kind of Difficulty

[iron skirt]

i've noticed a lot of you guys are sayng Jim's mising the point because what you call dificult games alsow have what he's talking about... wel gues what? you're mising the poit! games are now for everyone not just for hardcore gamers and that's a good thing... and when I say everyone Include the hardcore gamers (in case you aren't used to be included)... plus no one's stoping you from playng old "hardcore" games... I curentley only play games on the NES and some Warcraft 3(I am incapable of quiting warcraft 3... I suck at it though)

 

[MonkeyPunch]

Great show again. I still marvel at the awesomeness of Kiby Epic yarns graphic style.

4:30 scariest rendition of Kirby. Ever.
Or is it an angry ballsack with eyes?

 

[Electric Yemeth]

Love your trolling, also that metajoke you did by drinking. :> So anyway, yeah.. you're pretty much on the mark, however many gamers like to point out that 100% completion isn't necessary (I'm looking at you Yahtzee Sheeple). However you can still balance it a bit: Bayonetta and DMC did this as well and still had some quite hard moments.Anyway, keep up the good work and don't move away from The Escapist, would hate to see you on Youtube again :<

?dith: WoW did the same thing recently with hardmodes, and it wasn't well received. So yeah, mostly just little kids whining for forced difficulty, not real difficulty.

 

[dietpeachsnapple]

Excellent points.

I still find his quips to be crass, and his drawings to be of an insultingly low quality.

 

[Angry Camel]

Interesting take on difficulty there. It's amazing how much we use death and health as the sole measure of success. Super Metroid has both mortality, collection and time as part of the challenge. You could go through the game slowly, collecting 100% items, but have no peek under Samus' suit. Missing all the items got you to see her for a second, but a bad percentage. The ultimate challenge was getting everything in under 3 hours.

On a side note, loved the humour this episode, Jim.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

And congratulations Jim, you have COMPLETELY missed the point of the people who complain about games being too easy today.

Of course Kirby's Epic Yarn is easy, Kirby games have ALWAYS been easy, and it goes beyond saying that the point of Epic Yarn isn't the same as the point of fucking Ninja Gaiden.

The people who complain about games getting too easy mean that ALL games have gotten too easy and that the "hardest" difficulty settings for games where the point is still getting to the end of a level without dying have become fucking jokes.

So this entire episode was basically a gigantic straw-man argument.

Bravo i say.

My problem with that is it appears that hardcore gamers suffer from sadomasicism. They can only enjoy a game if it spanks them hard enough.

And what do they want devs to do? Make a game almost imposible to beat?

OT: Bravo I say, Jim. But you're not black.

Well not all people are like that but if I play Ninja Gaiden or Megaman or a game on the hardest setting I expect the game to spank me hard. That is the point of the harder settings and yes some games have become easier and taken away that challenge. Even Halo 3 is a joke compared to other Halos.

Now this may sound odd but while I probably died more in Halo 3 in certain levels than others in the series I felt this was more due to design than the actual difficulty. Not that didn't add a bit of challenge to work it out. Some bits on Legendary I would blaze through without dying and go through several checkpoints easily then there would be one place where I would just die constantly. This seems to be the same for CoD series at the moment.

 

[lostlevel]

And congratulations Jim, you have COMPLETELY missed the point of the people who complain about games being too easy today.

Of course Kirby's Epic Yarn is easy, Kirby games have ALWAYS been easy, and it goes beyond saying that the point of Epic Yarn isn't the same as the point of fucking Ninja Gaiden.

The people who complain about games getting too easy mean that ALL games have gotten too easy and that the "hardest" difficulty settings for games where the point is still getting to the end of a level without dying have become fucking jokes.

So this entire episode was basically a gigantic straw-man argument.

Bravo i say.

My problem with that is it appears that hardcore gamers suffer from sadomasicism. They can only enjoy a game if it spanks them hard enough.

And what do they want devs to do? Make a game almost imposible to beat?

OT: Bravo I say, Jim. But you're not black.

Well not all people are like that but if I play Ninja Gaiden or Megaman or a game on the hardest setting I expect the game to spank me hard. That is the point of the harder settings and yes some games have become easier and taken away that challenge. Even Halo 3 is a joke compared to other Halos.

Now this may sound odd but while I probably died more in Halo 3 in certain levels than others in the series I felt this was more due to design than the actual difficulty. Not that didn't add a bit of challenge to work it out. Some bits on Legendary I would blaze through without dying and go through several checkpoints easily then there would be one place where I would just die constantly. This seems to be the same for CoD series at the moment.

I think the difficulty caused by design is quite common in some games, sonic games in 3D involved a lot of dying in places because of glitches when the rest of the level was easy. I agree though Halo and CoD do have problems too but it's only when people exploit them online that it becomes a problem, for single player atleast it for the most part is up to you how you play.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

And congratulations Jim, you have COMPLETELY missed the point of the people who complain about games being too easy today.

Of course Kirby's Epic Yarn is easy, Kirby games have ALWAYS been easy, and it goes beyond saying that the point of Epic Yarn isn't the same as the point of fucking Ninja Gaiden.

The people who complain about games getting too easy mean that ALL games have gotten too easy and that the "hardest" difficulty settings for games where the point is still getting to the end of a level without dying have become fucking jokes.

So this entire episode was basically a gigantic straw-man argument.

Bravo i say.

My problem with that is it appears that hardcore gamers suffer from sadomasicism. They can only enjoy a game if it spanks them hard enough.

And what do they want devs to do? Make a game almost imposible to beat?

OT: Bravo I say, Jim. But you're not black.

Well not all people are like that but if I play Ninja Gaiden or Megaman or a game on the hardest setting I expect the game to spank me hard. That is the point of the harder settings and yes some games have become easier and taken away that challenge. Even Halo 3 is a joke compared to other Halos.

Now this may sound odd but while I probably died more in Halo 3 in certain levels than others in the series I felt this was more due to design than the actual difficulty. Not that didn't add a bit of challenge to work it out. Some bits on Legendary I would blaze through without dying and go through several checkpoints easily then there would be one place where I would just die constantly. This seems to be the same for CoD series at the moment.

I think the difficulty caused by design is quite common in some games, sonic games in 3D involved a lot of dying in places because of glitches when the rest of the level was easy. I agree though Halo and CoD do have problems too but it's only when people exploit them online that it becomes a problem, for single player atleast it for the most part is up to you how you play.

Well multiplayer is a whole different beast when it comes to balance but I think in single players there needs to be a steadily increasing difficulty rather than easy, medium, child's play, brick wall, hard, easy, the AI is cheating. DOA4 is a good example of this.

 

[BloodSquirrel]

difficulty:
Minor problem with this arguement. The people that don't care about that difference are generally not the people who would whine it's too easy. Unless they just like complaining for the sake of trying to sound old school.

This is just flat-out untrue. Plenty of people are saying ?I want the core experience to be a challenge?.

I can't count how many times I will play a game normally, sometimes thinking "well that was too easy, but fun," so what is my next thought do you think? "Well, let's make it harder!" FO3 was too easy, but I love the game. Since then I never use VATS, and mod the game up to put restrictions in areas I believe were to lax, like carry weight. Now I will admit, this is a moddable game, so added difficulty isn't terribly hard. So let's instead look at another game I play the pants off of, Final Fantasy 12.


For FF12 it's easier to add difficulty, play Zodiac style. If you can't get an actual copy of it (there are english patches and instructions on how to do it, if you own both copies like me), just play like you were anyway. Follow strict job classes, and don't use any of the lame auto leveling or early item tricks.

Which brings me to another point, a lot of complaints about how easy a game is come from the same group that will use every cheap trick in the book.

If I have to bar myself from certain tactics, mod the game, and set arbitrary restrictions for myself, then I'm doing the work of the game designer. I?m not just playing the game anymore, I?m making design decisions and playtesting them.

Quite frankly, I probably don?t care enough about your game to do that. Jim is actually engaging in a common fanboy fallacy here- ?You don?t like my favorite game/movie/comic book? Well, you need to work harder at liking it!?. No, I don?t. I can just move on to something else that I do enjoy.

 

[k-ossuburb]

Was that the "Two Best Friends Play" theme music in the background?

 

[Joshimodo]

Except that Epic Yarn is also very, very easy to get gold stars on. Sure, 2 of the platinum boss stars are a bit tricky, but it's still very easy and very forgiving.

 

[ZtH]

I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. I think he certainly has improved greatly since his first premere on the escapist. I'm glad I gave him a second shot!

 

[K_Dub]

Jim Sterling. The definition of classy.

 

[Bluecho]

Really, since when has a game's perceived easiness stopped people from finding it challenging? You have thousands of Final Fantasy fans deliberately handicapping their playthroughs in order to bump up the challenge.

No physical attack runs. No magic runs. All physical attack runs. All magic runs. All summon runs. Low level runs. Base level runs. Speed runs. No death runs. No saving runs. Single character runs.

Or what about Pokemon? Ever heard of a Nuzlocke Run? If you have, you know what I mean. If you don't, look it up yourself, I have other things to do.

A game is just a game, and if you put your mind to it, the game could be piss easy or the hardest game ever made.

 

[Cursed Frogurt]

Totally agree with this. For example, there is barely any penalty for death in Bioshock, but because the game was so immersive and "scary", I was afraid to die. I didn't want to get hit in Kirby's Epic Yarn, but if I did, I didn't have to restart the level and play the now predictable sections again and again.

The same applies to games like Limbo (checkpoints are so frequent that death means next to nothing) and Braid (you can't die). But both games are far from easy. They require logic and good hand-eye coordination.

 

[punipunipyo]

wow... never have I agreed with you this much, this is a good EP, I really like the way you describe "game didn't HOLD HANDS to show you a challenge, you have to WANT it." wow, it's like...Extra Credit, with attitude!~

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

...Huh...Yeah, He's right. So very right. I agree that not all games need to be super hard all the time from the ground up like Demon's Souls.


But that being said, I hope there is a difficulty setting in the next Zelda game. if I take 1/2 a heart of damage from the last boss when it hits me with a super epic looking attack...something just doesn't feel right. Especially if I have 17 hearts and 5 bottles filled with fairies and potions. Allow us veterans to make things a bit more challenging.

EDIT: BTW, if I had KNOWN the boss would be that easy, I would have done a 3-5 heart challenge. But I didn't, so I went into that fight fully prepared.

 

[Zom-B]

While Jim does make an interesting point, I can't help but notice that Kirby and all other games with "achievement" or trophy based objectives and levels of difficulty fall in to the same trap as any other games that "hold your hand and force you to face a great challenge". The difference between the difficulty and the challenge of, say, getting the gold or platinum medals in Kirby and finishing a game like Megaman or Demon's Souls is what's required. Finishing a game requires only that: finishing it. Achieving a gold or platinum ranking on a game demands a higher level of skill, yes, but it also demands a higher level of patience, a higher threshold for the player to try the same tasks/levels over and over again and in the end is that much harder to achieve. Which might be a good thing for some players. For others it is the most boring part of gameplay. Personally, I'm not interested in hunting down every single gem in Kirby, for instance, just for a virtual "gold medal". Did it make my play time more fun? No. Longer? Yes. I'd say that a game that offers both challenges is the superior gaming experience in the end. Kirby only offers one challenge, the challenge of "perfection".

I'd say that gold and platinum challenges in games like Kirby are also "spoon fed" to you and "mapped out with tiresome predictability" as well. You know that you need to collect all the gems, a predictable goal in itself!

I like the idea of choosing how you view the challenge of a game. I dislike that Jim felt he needed to insult other games, and by extension the players that enjoy them, to make his point when it just as easily could have been made without casting aspersions.

 

[Ubermetalhed]

A game should be challenging straight away, the player shouldn't have to make the game harder to enjoy it more.

Jims argument seems to just encourage achievement whoring.

 

[GrungyMunchy]

Seriously, you need to drop the MS Paint pictures. They're fucking irritating and look like the expression of an ADD 5-grader's frustrations.