Jimquisition: Accepting the Isms

[TWEWER]

The problem with this issue is that game journalists insist on saying that all these games are "offensive". The word is thrown around all the time but I seriously doubt that they are actually offended in specific cases of sexism or racism in games. Just because it has the potential to offend doesn't make it offensive.

 

[Gunjester]

I agree although skyrim does take place in a medieval like world so of course there?s some sexism the fact that you can even play as a female character is already bizarre if you think about it.

Though I disagree that playing as a female character is bizarre, I do agree with this point. Jim, you're keen and insightful and usually the most rational on this site, but Skyrim is a medieval world, what's worse is that it's akin to Norse, Scandinavian and Germanic countries, who had legends of female fighters and all that but were known to be among the most hostile towards the female gender, so having quests and attitudes towards them should be fine, the problem with Bethesda's format is there's no way to turn quests around, you sometimes make choices but they're usually very linear and it's not like Dragon Age where you could take her side instead, which IS a problem.

As for your church simile, may I just point out that almost everyone who doesn't run the church is extremely pissed off at them for that and they are numerous priests, both young and old, who reprimand the cardinals and pope for their behaviour on the subject? Seriously, in a video about not blaming an entire medium/establishment for bad stuff that happens in it, you do exactly that. Love you Jim and thank God for you.

 

[JudgeGame]

Yeah it's quite sad that a company never can accurately depict a middle ages society in a game again because then people lose their shit. But yeah i agree with you with you that skyrim is half-assed and i'm kind of dissapointed by it. Guess they were kind of cowards and didn't go through with the full middle-ages setting.

Game of Thrones is a good example of how to depict a middle age setting in a way that is both realistic, extremely violent and morally ambiguous without falling into misogyny and racism.

A video game can't do that yet it needs to get out of this phase where people go insane when there are mature themes in a game. Books and movies and tv-series is over this phase for the most part. Think of what would happen if they tried to make a 50 shades of grey game. Yeah it would be the internet allcapsalypse.

That is a ridiculous assertion. If a game was as well written and as conscientious with its subject matter as Game of Thrones is, it would be lauded for it. Case in point: Spec Ops: The Line, Walking Dead or Silent Hill to name a few off the top of my head. The only problem here is that a great majority of game writers are immature clowns who's only experience with narrative is the dribble of other immature clowns and we're stuck in a self-fulfilling prophesy that convinces the industry that good writing won't sell and isn't worth investing in.

Videogames have been exploring "mature" themes for decades now and, with the exception of some asshat coming every now and then to tell us videogames are the new tool of Lucifer to take our souls, they recieve a very similar treatment by the general public to other forms of media.

 

[AdrianRK]

Dude, people hate Anita not because she's criticising video games, but because she's a con artist.
Her videos are so enlightening that they can be summarised simply by two phrases "Sex sales" and "Companies make targeted products" That's it! She was very efficient in stirring up the trolls just to make her case and to convince a bunch of self riches gamers to give her money so they can pat themselves on the back on how progressive and caring they are.

People who took her seriously are just as superficial as her videos are...

But that's beside the point. You, just like many other similar minded people, like to lump as gamers all together in one group regardless of age. You do realise that gamers are people with ages varying from 13 to 40, right? and that adolescent boys are in general very aggressive, gynophobic and don't take criticism very well because they don't have any life experience, right?

I'm pretty sure that if you take any group of gamers at ages above 30 that you'll never find a single gynophobic or sexist opinion.

Man, I miss being young. I wish I was as young as you.

Because judging from your own logic, you must be about 12.

Look, I cannot believe I have to say this. Its clear to just about anyone.

An Academic (Anita being one. She lectures at Universities occasionally, etc etc) would not sacrifice her entire career over something as small as 150k. One and a half million? Maybe. You could live on that for quite some time and with shrewd investments may never have to work again. But 150k, not even enough to buy a decent house? Really?

Also, I love how you have somehow indicated that sexism stops at age 30. I would like you to meet my father at some point. Or some of the over 30's gamers that I know.

Oh, and as for her videos?

The breakdown on Lego and its shift from gender neutral products over to incredibly gendered and incredibly sexist products is one that went under a hell of a lot of radars. Her video on it predates most of the media attention it gathered and is quite the deconstruction. I, for one, found it rather informative. Yes, you can very simplistically break down most of her arguments to what you broke down most of her arguments to, but you can break down most international relations to "Countries don't like each other much and fight about it, or don't and trade stuff". Just because you can turn an argument into a more simplistic form, one which you can understand with your aforementioned 12 year old brain (Just making a link to your own post, friend), does not mean that the argument itself is simplistic or without merit.
OT:

I agree with Jim. I think its about time we can seriously discuss some of the issues with our beloved art form without a sudden tide of hatred based upon our judgments being more than gameplay related.

Ah.. the good old days of typical internet flame wars, where you personally attack people you don?t know a thing about when you have nothing to say but you're bothered by their opinion

But onto the more serious part of your reply, I do think it's about time we talked about more serious things regarding our favourite pastime activity, like the fact that the people reviewing games get their money from the people making them, of the fact that a most of the game reviews are barely more than opinion pieces

But in your eyes the fact that women are shown in a negative light does not matter? Or perhaps the depictions of homosexuals etc, they dont matter? To a lesser degree these days the negative depictions of race within games, they dont matter?

In my eyes a bigger issue is within the very nature of the games we play. I do not really care about the reviewers or how they get paid, I take my advice from other gamers who share my interests, not internet celebutants. I do not bother buying or reading gaming magazines, bar this one, and the only "Reviewer" I follow whatsoever is Yahtzee who, at best, is an entertainer.

I am not necessarily bothered by your opinion. Just bits of it. The whole "Sarkeesian is going to throw away her credibility for a negligible payday" thing irritates me because I think it is based mainly on her having unpopular views and a vagina, a horrendous mixture with regards to the internet. That particular nugget is not necessarily aimed at you, just most people who share the opinion that she is nothing more then a scam artist who planned all of this in advance.

To me, a student of Sociology, Media and Cultural studies and Politics, issues of gender, sexuality and race within games are important and need to be discussed. They need to be discussed in a non insane manner, with people from both sides talking about this like adults. This website does make it hard, plenty of people simply do not think how women or LGBTQ customers feel simply does not matter.

However, I can understand why you think the issues of reviewing matter more. Lots of people do think that games should just be about games, that the only issues to be discussed are structural ones or ones that are to do with how games play and the stories they tell.

EDIT:

Skyrim which is set in a middle ages setting has sexist elements in it. Apparently it's sexist to depict the world as it is now. Well people just shout sexist about everything now without thinking so it's not surprising.

Or perhaps the fact that the world is quite sexist makes people call it out a lot more but due to your inability to see this you begin to think that people are calling out nothing?

Also, Skyrim is a fantasy game made in this current climate. There is absolutely no reason they could not have made it without the sexist quests. You cannot get away with it by saying its based in a different age so everything is ok. Seriously.

Plus if you read the crap around it the assumption is that men and women are treated equally in the Elder Scrolls universe, with both serving in the military etc etc. If it was based upon a medieval society, as you are claiming, then why the fuck is the captain at the start who sends you to the block a woman? Why the fuck do you ever see women in armour? Why the fuck is it equal on any level?

Strangely enough, if the game was truly based upon medieval societies and was depicted realistically, with men and women in the rolls they were forced into as a result of medieval society, the more sexist quests may have never been noticed. But since they created a supposedly gender equal universe and then added the sexist bullcrap from our own universe it is making a statement. Herp to the Derp.

Using the setting as a justification only makes sense if the setting is consistent.

This reply was nice, thank you.
I'm sorry if I came off as saying I don't care about misogyny in our culture, that's not what I wanted to say with my comment. I don't think that misogyny does not exist in our culture and in gaming, what I meant to say is that Anita's videos are not helping.

In my opinion, all she does is state the obvious in a very superficial way and that for this kind of discussions we need something more. You can disagree with me here, but I think she's just capitalizing on this need and nothing more, just like people who sell miracle diet pills to people who are obese.. they?re not helping. And I personally don't like people who support her because most of them think they can just fix problems with the most minor of actions, like give someone money without doing any background check on her and her goals, and they think they have the moral highground because of this.

There are a lot of people who criticise Anita for her work (including women, like sex positive feminists), but you don't hear from them because they're all lumped up together with the sexist trolls.

Also, I don't think this discussion about sexism in video games is something new. It's been going on for some time on youtube and most gaming forums, but people like Jim like to make it out as if it's something new and cutting edge.

I think sexism in video games has its origin in typical gynophobia found in most immature males, especially in adolescent boys. Marketing teams are just capitalising on this and male sexuality. They ignore anyother groups of consumers because they don't think other groups of people would buy games

Things can change and probably will change, but change does not come from ridicule, sarcastic and condescending videos, or shaming game fans. Change comes from examples. The movie industry evolves not through harsh criticisms, but through better and better movies that set the bar higher and higher.
If people want to bring gender equality in video games, they should focus on convincing game developers that games not marketed to boys exclusively will sell

 

[targren]

The US Supreme Court already ruled irrevocably that videogames are protected by the First Amendment to the same degree all media (films, newspapers...) are.
[link]http://learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/the-constitution-and-you-video-games-and-the-first-amendment/[/link]

Emphasis mine. Other media is regularly censored in this country, and you're ignoring the other inconvenient fact that, even if your idealism wasn't completely divorced from cold, hard reality, it would still be irrelevant to the gamers who don't live in the US.

 

[JudgeGame]

The US Supreme Court already ruled irrevocably that videogames are protected by the First Amendment to the same degree all media (films, newspapers...) are.
[link]http://learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/the-constitution-and-you-video-games-and-the-first-amendment/[/link]

Emphasis mine. Other media is regularly censored in this country, and you're ignoring the other inconvenient fact that, even if your idealism wasn't completely divorced from cold, hard reality, it would still be irrelevant to the gamers who don't live in the US.

I'd like to know what your definition of censorship is.

 

[JudgeGame]

Yeah it's quite sad that a company never can accurately depict a middle ages society in a game again because then people lose their shit. But yeah i agree with you with you that skyrim is half-assed and i'm kind of dissapointed by it. Guess they were kind of cowards and didn't go through with the full middle-ages setting.

It is not set in the middle ages. It is set on an alien planet in a fantasy land where dragons and zombies roam the world, and every other person has magical powers that allow them to shoot lightning bolts from their fingertips. And you think it was "cowardly" of them not to put rampant sexism in? Uhhh ... OK.

Personally, I like the way that Skyrim was written, and I'm glad it wasn't set in the middle ages. What's fun about the middle ages? A really accurate portrayal of the middle ages would have to include lots of disease and starvation and feudalist tyranny, and no talking dogs or giant crabs. You know what's fun? Dragons are fun. Shooting lightning from your fingertips is fun. Sheogorath is fun. And gender equality is fun.

As other people have said, the slut-shaming quest just feels out of place, because they took a sexist concept from our own universe and jammed it into a setting with a very different attitude towards gender and romance.

Don't forget the feces. Feces everywhere. Feces played a huge role in the middle ages.

 

[danon]

Yes because games need to be fun and can't be about serious issues in history.

 

[danon]

Sigh abandoning thread have your happy funland games where all is color and rainbows.

 

[Durgiun]

Well, Jimmy Boy, the reason why some people are a bit irked when people cry ''sexism'' over a video game is because there are a few that (either subconsciously or consciously) feel that they can't win against an accusation like that based upon the fact that the public has a bout of righteous indignation anytime they hear about a topic like that. And god knows, you cannot reason with someone who's a self-righteous and very angry scrotum. Case in Point She-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named's fans.

 

[Atmos Duality]

So, are you driving a really big penis to work?

And suddenly the term "Sex Drive" takes on a horrifying new meaning.

 

[JudgeGame]

Yes because games need to be fun and can't be about serious issues in history.

You mean like the hundreds of lives that were lost when the dragons returned? I think that is treated very seriously. I shed a little tear every time an NPC got roasted.

Let me try to make this clear: Skyrim is not a historical game. It's not. You can tell if you look closely: all the wizards and and cat people give it away. It borrows some of its language from Norse legend and everyone fights with bows and swords (and magic) instead of guns, but that's about as far as it goes in portraying the middle ages according to Earth.

I can't get over the fact that you're genuinely sulking because Skyrim isn't sexist enough.

Don't forget the feces. Feces everywhere. Feces played a huge role in the middle ages.

Oh god, don't say that. You'll set off an epidemic of Skyrim poo puns.

I'm tired of all these oversensitive nancies ruining games. I want shit in my RPGs! I want peasants flinging their own poo at me as a weapon. I want to jump over streams of piss and diarrhea flowing down a busy street. I want every inch of the screen to be the same colour of brown as a result of the shit that is smeared all over it.

It's time for these casuals to get lost and let us enjoy videogames as they deserve to be enjoyed. Unless we are prepared to explore mature themes in videogames, we will never be able to make true art and it will never be taken seriously.

 

[cassiebearRAWR]

What bothers me is how the kind of people you're describing who want to deny the presence of "-isms" in games are also usually the first ones to complain about how terrible shows like The Big Bang Theory (and other media) are and how offensive they are to geek culture. I certainly don't disagree with that sentiment, but it seems pretty self-centered and hypocritical to be so outraged at that, and then turn around and chastise us for trying to voice the same kinds of feelings for our issues.

And on a side note, as someone who identifies as a feminist, believe me: if I made a habit of avoiding every game that flirted with some sort of "-ism," about the only game I'd be playing is solitaire. So not only can you love a game while also realizing that some aspects of it are not too great for women, people of color, LGBT people, etc., it's actually a obligatory thing for a lot of us.

 

[m19]

There is no implication of violence in those meat products.

Check your eyesight maybe. The image of people butchered for fresh meat implies violence pretty directly.

Contrary to popular belief most victims of violence are men. Yet we don't raise a stink about every depiction of violence in the media.

Hate to state the obvious, but you forgot to mention that most perpetrators of violence are men as well.

What's that supposed to mean? Because men commit violence they deserve what they get or something?

Also I remember seeing some questionable math in those rape stats somewhere. Especially the 1 in 4 stat. Like their definition of rape being very loose to include people that didn't even define what happened to them as such.

 

[JudgeGame]

There is no implication of violence in those meat products.

Check your eyesight maybe. The image of people butchered for fresh meat implies violence pretty directly.

It's not violence unless it's enacted against a living being.

 

[m19]

It's not violence unless it's enacted against a living being.

Well then your complaints about the torso are void.