Jimquisition: Accepting the Isms
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
Recommended Videos
Yeah absolutely. It's supposed to be "live another life in another world" the player should have as much freedom as the devs can put in. Consider the Fable series of games, where you can go on gun rampages in towns. I did that all the time. It seems unusual to me for people to complain about being allowed to be sexist but think that it's fine to be a mass murdering cannibal. All virtually of course.Phasmal said:
If I'm allowed to shoot up a town in a video game, why shouldn't I also be allowed to be sexist?
I don't agree that having sexism in a game makes the game sexist.
There's a lot of racism in the Witcher, Dragon age, and Djanjo for that matter, that doesn't make them racists game or movies.
I also don't agree that your example from Skyrim is a particularly compelling example of sexism in the game.
As far as I remember from the game that quest was far more about sexual liberation vs sexual conservatism, in fact in the world of Skyrim its also more about the moral guidelines of one religious dogma vs another. One which embraces sexuality as a means to praise their deity, Dibella, and another which sees that as some kind of immoral behaviour (I know which religion I'd rather sign up with.)
The quest would have worked just as well if either or both had been men, although I don't doubt if the prude had been a man and the dibella worshipper had been a woman how would people have considered it then, or if the prude had been a woman and the dibella worshipper a man. Or if the NPCs had been randomly generated and differed for each person who played the game, we would have still had cries of sexism. Supposition only, no conclusion drawn.
As for that zombie woman torso, I don't know if I'd consider it sexist, I mean there wasn't a zombie man torso available in other boxes so perhaps it is, but I do know I found it grotesque, I felt the same way about their trailer for that matter.
Edit additional: I also think that the inclusion of such things is good for the games, it allows discussion of these subjects. Consider the insanely misogynistic Ceasar's legion from Fallout: NV, also a good example of the difference between a misogynistic culture and a sexist one, the legion -really- fucking hates women. However, by including these aspects and giving the player a choice in how they interact with these characters allows for a person to explore their own moral philosophy through the typical Socratic form.
I however have never managed to do a pro legion play through though, those guys are not even evil in a fun way like dungeon keeper is.
Edit: correction supposition, not observation.
There's a lot of racism in the Witcher, Dragon age, and Djanjo for that matter, that doesn't make them racists game or movies.
I also don't agree that your example from Skyrim is a particularly compelling example of sexism in the game.
As far as I remember from the game that quest was far more about sexual liberation vs sexual conservatism, in fact in the world of Skyrim its also more about the moral guidelines of one religious dogma vs another. One which embraces sexuality as a means to praise their deity, Dibella, and another which sees that as some kind of immoral behaviour (I know which religion I'd rather sign up with.)
The quest would have worked just as well if either or both had been men, although I don't doubt if the prude had been a man and the dibella worshipper had been a woman how would people have considered it then, or if the prude had been a woman and the dibella worshipper a man. Or if the NPCs had been randomly generated and differed for each person who played the game, we would have still had cries of sexism. Supposition only, no conclusion drawn.
As for that zombie woman torso, I don't know if I'd consider it sexist, I mean there wasn't a zombie man torso available in other boxes so perhaps it is, but I do know I found it grotesque, I felt the same way about their trailer for that matter.
Edit additional: I also think that the inclusion of such things is good for the games, it allows discussion of these subjects. Consider the insanely misogynistic Ceasar's legion from Fallout: NV, also a good example of the difference between a misogynistic culture and a sexist one, the legion -really- fucking hates women. However, by including these aspects and giving the player a choice in how they interact with these characters allows for a person to explore their own moral philosophy through the typical Socratic form.
I however have never managed to do a pro legion play through though, those guys are not even evil in a fun way like dungeon keeper is.
Edit: correction supposition, not observation.
As a massive HP Lovecraft fan, Jim... Thanks for perfectly articulating much of what I have already known for a while now, but have been unable to express so eloquently. Truly Jim, we should thank God for someone as great as you. 
Remember how you got fined and arrested in that game? Remember the little bar that counts the evil points you are accumulating? There is such a thing in fiction as tone and perspective and it is one of the creator's most powerful and fundamental skills. I'm not even saying what Fable did was clever or anything; it was bloody obvious and the bear minimum you expect from fiction you are expected to take seriously.Moth_Monk said:
This is my issue as well.wizzy555 said:
Why is violence not seen to have a "point" or a "message"? We don't look at quests asking you to butcher innocent people and say "This game is condoning violence" so how is it any different from it being sexist, racist or homophobic (unless it is openly promoting it).
That's not to say I think you should be able to be them three things, my point is that when it comes to violence it's "just a game", but when it's a controversial subject that doesn't involve dismembering fictional characters but insulting them, suddenly it's bad.
It just strikes me as hypocritical.
This too.ccdohl said:
It almost feels like people are going out of their way to try and find as many things offensive as possible to show how empathetic and open minded they are. It used to be a case of unless something was deliberately and obviously trying to be offensive, it was taken as a joke, or seen as light hearted banter.
Obviously if they are condoning negative stereotypes or openly supporting homophobia, sexism, racism etc. then that's an issue, but normally it's things like "Oh look a white gut killing non-whites, how racist. It's not like the game is set in a country where the majority of people are not white. Nope, it's got to be making a point about white superiority."
Yes, this so much.
I'm sick and tired of people going "You want to ban everything fun! Our freedom of speech is under attack!", if I criticise anything for being sexist or homophobic.
I mean, the game developers aren't under a moral oblication to make good games either, or certain types of games.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the 'offensive' gender roles being fitting in the context of the game.
I mean, obviously you can have offensive stuff in a work, in fact art shouldn't shy away from that kind of stuff, but it will depend then how it's handled, and what the message of the work is.
Besides, I think it's more vital to point out sexism and such stuff when it isn't trying to be offensive.
If someone doesn't realise s/he is being offensive, or has certain kinds of attitudes, isn't it good to inform them of it? To challenge accepted norms and our own attitudes?
For example, my grandmother calls black people 'niggers'.
She doesn't mean anything bad by it, when she was young, that was just the way people talked.
But I'm going to do my best to try to make her stop using that word, because it's meaning is different for most people.
I'm sick and tired of people going "You want to ban everything fun! Our freedom of speech is under attack!", if I criticise anything for being sexist or homophobic.
It's true they don't have the obligation, but that doesn't mean they can't be criticised for it. Or that people shouldnn't voice what they'd like to see in games.alphamalet said:
I mean, the game developers aren't under a moral oblication to make good games either, or certain types of games.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the 'offensive' gender roles being fitting in the context of the game.
I mean, obviously you can have offensive stuff in a work, in fact art shouldn't shy away from that kind of stuff, but it will depend then how it's handled, and what the message of the work is.
Also, a lot of minorities just took the abuse.Legion said:
Besides, I think it's more vital to point out sexism and such stuff when it isn't trying to be offensive.
If someone doesn't realise s/he is being offensive, or has certain kinds of attitudes, isn't it good to inform them of it? To challenge accepted norms and our own attitudes?
For example, my grandmother calls black people 'niggers'.
She doesn't mean anything bad by it, when she was young, that was just the way people talked.
But I'm going to do my best to try to make her stop using that word, because it's meaning is different for most people.
This is pretty old news. As a fan who follows the rest of his work on Destructoid, Jim has a lot of reasons for his views, the debacle with Daphny being a small part of them. Almost everything that ends up on Jimquisition originates in discussions he has on the Destructiod podcast in his free time and has little to do with any higher agenda, just the views of him and his close friends and lover.wizzy555 said:
And the reason we don't have it is because people are afraid to try, because on the one hand, there are people who will cry whatever on it and try to get it run into the ground without bothering to think about it's intent and on the other, you have the damned trolls who will make the situation worse by making all gamers look like fratboy douchebags who think that these things are funny and they should be allowed to indulge in it without anybody calling them out on what they are.Zachary Amaranth said:
And the reason we don't call for bans is because that's not something wise people do. I don't care what kind of horrible shit is made into games, movies, TV, whatever (and there's a lot of horrible shit that has been made), you don't ban things. As soon as you start down that road, you open the door for anything to be banned regardless of message or content just because popular opinion disagrees with it.
The recaptcha is "Hear me roar!" I wonder if these things are gaining a certain amount of sentience.
So what you're saying is that people within a group don't agree on all points? Call the press!JudgeGame said:
I wasn't saying that everyone in a certain group was extreme. I was saying that those who are extreme often make others come with extreme retaliation. Yes, this isn't universal, but pretty much every sexism thread I have seen escalates to that sooner or later.
I don't even know how you ended up with whatever you wrote in your last post. It seems like you think I don't want to sexism because it's unpleasant or that I don't want to consider the existence of it. I don't like discussing it because it seems impossible to actually have a real discussion. Now if the two of us could meet face to face and discuss this over a cup of tea rather than being two anonymous people not knowing each other I am sure I would have enjoyed it.
Again thanks for proving my point by escalating what I admit was idle speculation. I have learned my lesson and I wont enter a thread where sexism is being discussed.
Thank you, Jim!
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I was thinking of writing a blog post about this (a forum post was clearly out of the question), explaining that many of my favorite games had sexist/racist/homophobic content, and that that was a bad thing, but that they were still good games. I'm fine with taking baby steps when it comes to these kinds of issues, since that's the only way these things are ever solved.
Even some of my favorite shows (Sherlock and Firefly) have some terrible problems with women and Asian people in particular, which makes me very uncomfortable and I wish they didn't have those problems, but I still love both shows overall.
I really hope that this video makes people more willing to discuss these issues and work toward fixing them rather than screaming, plugging their ears, and insulting everyone out of defensiveness. I'm too scared to read the comments here to see if your video has had the intended effect because doing that tends to ruin my day, I just wanted to express my gratitude. Thank you so much.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I was thinking of writing a blog post about this (a forum post was clearly out of the question), explaining that many of my favorite games had sexist/racist/homophobic content, and that that was a bad thing, but that they were still good games. I'm fine with taking baby steps when it comes to these kinds of issues, since that's the only way these things are ever solved.
Even some of my favorite shows (Sherlock and Firefly) have some terrible problems with women and Asian people in particular, which makes me very uncomfortable and I wish they didn't have those problems, but I still love both shows overall.
I really hope that this video makes people more willing to discuss these issues and work toward fixing them rather than screaming, plugging their ears, and insulting everyone out of defensiveness. I'm too scared to read the comments here to see if your video has had the intended effect because doing that tends to ruin my day, I just wanted to express my gratitude. Thank you so much.
I still stand by the collectors edition of Dead Island being offensive, but ok. It's a dismembered torso wearing the flag of the country it's being released in... I am pretty sure their goal was to be offensive, regardless of any apology they may have made. But it's merchandise for a zombie game, so I'd expect it to be something horrible.
I never said I was referring to minorities. I was referring to the general increase in being thin skinned. In the UK for example comedians are constantly bombarded by the press complaining about their "offensive" humour. They aren't even discussing things such as racism, homophobia or sexism. The content has nothing to do with groups that have been persecuted at all.Lieju said:
For example on the 'Big Fat Quiz of the Year' a bunch of comedians made fun of both the Queen and the President of America. Their comments sparked complaints and the front pages of all of the newspapers were plastered with it. It's absolutely pathetic.
I agree with your point that we should point it out when we see it, we shouldn't just accept it. My issue is that people frequently go looking for it when it isn't there.
A vague example and I apologise but this is how it frequently looks to me:
A guy says something nasty to another person of the same race, gender and sexuality = They are just an asshole.
A guy says something nasty to a person of another race = It's racist.
A guy says something nasty to a woman = It's sexist.
A guy says something nasty to a gay guy = It's homophobic.
The assumption frequently seems to be made that if anybody says/does anything about anybody who is different from them, it has to be because they are different from you rather than other reasons.
That is my issue really. The assumption that something is offensive due to the person being affected, rather than why they are being affected.
I apologise if I have worded this poorly.
