Jimquisition: Accepting the Isms

[JudgeGame]

While you are completely correct, I think what's most interesting about the analogy is that it is dificult to find female fantasies that involve completely dehumanizing and humiliating their male sex object. That's not unexpected though, given the nature of sexism.

Which male fantasies (in games) do that?

I have a hard time convincing myself this question even deserves an answer.

 

[freaper]

I'm convinced that in a few years' time games too will be able to tackle these issues, just like previously novels and movies did. It probably won't be in AAA titles though, or at least not at first. The big market is still too immature for this kind of talk.

 

[JudgeGame]

I have to say I agree with the point that the people discussing are on extreme sides of each other. However the internet doesn't have a middle ground. You're either black or white, there's no grey in the middle or any other colour somewhere in the equation.

This is part of the reason there's so much hostility towards feminists. Extreme feminism inspires extreme misogyny. I tend to stay away from all sexism, feminism and homophobia debates because I don't get along with either extreme side and I don't want to be associated with either side.

You only choose to believe that. Your view is not representative of the reality.

 

[wizzy555]

I thought about the Mages Guild storyline in Skyrim, how yet again the pattern of a fallen leader giving up their mantle to the relatively inexperienced Player Character played out despite the existence of people with far greater seniority. But there weren't a large number of female NPCs who would have been the obvious choice to step forward to fill the role instead, and so that plotline went unremarked in Ms. Prell's article.

Eh? The dragonborne can be a woman, and the master wizard was a woman. The rank below arch-mage.

 

[Moth_Monk]

Uh...I was expecting the Earthworm Jim guy to be a pedophile or something. But he's just a homophobe? Is the game homophobic? Come on Jim, man up - death of the author and all that (fallacy of negative association)

 

[wizzy555]

I have to say I agree with the point that the people discussing are on extreme sides of each other. However the internet doesn't have a middle ground. You're either black or white, there's no grey in the middle or any other colour somewhere in the equation.

This is part of the reason there's so much hostility towards feminists. Extreme feminism inspires extreme misogyny. I tend to stay away from all sexism, feminism and homophobia debates because I don't get along with either extreme side and I don't want to be associated with either side.

You only choose to believe that. Your view is not representative of the reality.

Got to page 3 before someone said something that made me lose all hope of rational conversation. Improvement.

 

[Moth_Monk]

Having sex with many men in a medieval high-fantasy?

This is what popped in my head when I saw this video.

This game has dragons, magic, furries and people who will marry me because I'm wearing a certain kind of necklace.
I am absolutely sure the lack of slut shaming would not destroy the `realism`.

Because if we dare to include these topics in games, NEXT IT WILL AFFECT CHILDREN'S MINDS AND THEY WILL THINK...blah, blah, blah,

We often here this kind of bullshit from people going on about violence.

Having thou cake and eating it?

If we start being censorial with games where will it end? Where will the lines be drawn?

 

[Moth_Monk]

I'm surprised Earthworm Jimothy didn't mention Lollipop Chainsaw...as an example along with Tomb Raider, Hitman etc. etc.

Captcha: Blaze a trail

Indeed.

 

[Yopaz]

I have to say I agree with the point that the people discussing are on extreme sides of each other. However the internet doesn't have a middle ground. You're either black or white, there's no grey in the middle or any other colour somewhere in the equation.

This is part of the reason there's so much hostility towards feminists. Extreme feminism inspires extreme misogyny. I tend to stay away from all sexism, feminism and homophobia debates because I don't get along with either extreme side and I don't want to be associated with either side.

You only choose to believe that. Your view is not representative of the reality.

Yeah, this is nothing but my interpretation judging forum debates. I wont deny that or claim that this is representative. Was really my idle speculation worthy to try to start a discussion? Thank you for proving me right for trying to stay out of these things though.

 

[Phasmal]

Because if we dare to include these topics in games, NEXT IT WILL AFFECT CHILDREN'S MINDS AND THEY WILL THINK...blah, blah, blah,

We often here this kind of bullshit from people going on about violence.

Having thou cake and eating it?

If we start being censorial with games where will it end? Where will the lines be drawn?

That sure was some words you said.
Pity they had no connection to anything I said.

It's a stupid thing to include with the general atmosphere of Skyrim.
I can be a Dragonborne lady, I can marry someone of the same gender, arguing that it's correct for Skyrim's society to include that quest just seems bloody silly.
Saying it's `medievial` doesn't make sense.

That was my actual point, by the way.
You seem to have missed it.

 

[Callate]

Eh? The dragonborne can be a woman, and the master wizard was a woman. The rank below arch-mage.

The Dragonborn can be a woman, but Prell's repeated thesis in the article is that in spite of the presence of a woman who would be the obvious candidate to take over the vacated leadership role, the mantle is passed on to the PC instead. While there are female characters who could have become Archmage instead of the Dragonborn, there isn't (in my experience) any inherent suggestion that the role would more naturally pass to Faralda, Nirya, or Mirabelle than to Tolfdir, Phinis, or Urag.

 

[wizzy555]

Because if we dare to include these topics in games, NEXT IT WILL AFFECT CHILDREN'S MINDS AND THEY WILL THINK...blah, blah, blah,

We often here this kind of bullshit from people going on about violence.

Having thou cake and eating it?

If we start being censorial with games where will it end? Where will the lines be drawn?

That sure was some words you said.
Pity they had no connection to anything I said.

It's a stupid thing to include with the general atmosphere of Skyrim.
I can be a Dragonborne lady, I can marry someone of the same gender, arguing that it's correct for Skyrim's society to include that quest just seems bloody silly.
Saying it's `medievial` doesn't make sense.

That was my actual point, by the way.
You seem to have missed it.

Frankly both are silly, the presence of some egalitarian memes doesn't mean that the philosophy in skyrim resembles current social justice philosophy (btw, not all feminist philosophies dislike slut shaming). The writers say this is the culture in skyrim, so apparently it is.

 

[triggrhappy94]

Oh I didn't know MDF was you, Jim. I'll go check it out.

As for the zombie-boob statue: I've said it before, I'll say it again. Why does everything need to have a pair of boobs strapped to the front? If I want to watch porn, I'll watch porn. I don't need shameless shots of the female characters' massive boobage (or assage, I'm not biased) every ten minutes to remind me of what I'm missing by spending hours playing the game.

 

[Hagi]

One of the first videos where I have to say I disagree with Jim.

Not really because he's wrong about there being idiots who take any sort of criticism as the idea that someone's trying to take their games away and must thus be shut up, those definitely exist.

But rather because misrepresents the entire argument about whether or not certain things are sexist as everyone who disagrees on something being sexist being that sort of idiot.

Just because something can be interpreted as sexist does not mean it has to be. If you're out looking for it you can find sexism, racism etc. EVERYWHERE. It does not mean that's actually the case. It's perfectly possible to disagree that certain things are sexist and to find those that do find them sexist to be overly sensitive without trying to shut up all criticism out of fear of your favorite games being taken away.

Jim tries to stop things turning black and white by turning them into a different kind of black and white, that doesn't really make things better.

 

[Phasmal]

Frankly both are silly, the presence of some egalitarian memes doesn't mean that the philosophy in skyrim resembles current social justice philosophy (btw, not all feminist philosophies dislike slut shaming). The writers say this is the culture in skyrim, so apparently it is.

To be clear, I'm not debating the relevancy of that quest at all.
What I am debating is the attitude that `of course things should be that way, medieval!!!`.
Seeing as that isn't how the culture of Skyrim comes across and short of that quest there is no reason at all to think that women in that culture are looked down on for having sex.
(And I don't care what some `feminist philosophies` think, shaming women for having sex is fucked up).

 

[wizzy555]

Eh? The dragonborne can be a woman, and the master wizard was a woman. The rank below arch-mage.

The Dragonborn can be a woman, but Prell's repeated thesis in the article is that in spite of the presence of a woman who would be the obvious candidate to take over the vacated leadership role, the mantle is passed on to the PC instead. While there are female characters who could have become Archmage instead of the Dragonborn, there isn't (in my experience) any inherent suggestion that the role would more naturally pass to Faralda, Nirya, or Mirabelle than to Tolfdir, Phinis, or Urag.

But that has everything to do with Bethesda making the player character climb the ranks for every guild and nothing to do with social commentary. It's a game mechanic decision.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Thank God for shameless self promotion, too, ey Jim?

 

[Moth_Monk]

Because if we dare to include these topics in games, NEXT IT WILL AFFECT CHILDREN'S MINDS AND THEY WILL THINK...blah, blah, blah,

We often here this kind of bullshit from people going on about violence.

Having thou cake and eating it?

If we start being censorial with games where will it end? Where will the lines be drawn?

That sure was some words you said.
Pity they had no connection to anything I said.

It's a stupid thing to include with the general atmosphere of Skyrim.
I can be a Dragonborne lady, I can marry someone of the same gender, arguing that it's correct for Skyrim's society to include that quest just seems bloody silly.
Saying it's `medievial` doesn't make sense.

That was my actual point, by the way.
You seem to have missed it.

So you don't think the player should be given the opportunity to act like an immoral prick in the game? In anyway? The player gets to murder and eat people, and they don't get to be sexist? Come on. "I might be a psychopathic, cannibal assassin who worships a corpse; but at least I respect women!"

Surely you can see how silly that is? Having X in a game does not equal the promotion or endorsement of X. We should be allowed to fantasize or are you one of the thought police?