Jimquisition: Accepting the Isms

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JudgeGame

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bunji said:
spartandude said:
bunji said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
bunji said:
aslong as its only males getting horribly murdered it's all cool right?
Will the males be wearing bikinis and have implant-augmented tits shoved in them? Because then you might have a fair comparison.
Do you look like Kratos? Or Dante? Or Phoenix? Or any other of the idealized male figures that are the exclusive body-type for male main characters in games? Because it makes total sense for cratos to be bare-chested right?
while you do have a point in that theres no good reason for kratos being bare chested and showing off his muscles, but if you think that he is sexualised then you are so wrong. yh sure there are probably a few women out there who think hes sexy but not many. its mostly done for a male power fantasy in those cases

OT i think Jim also hit on something that relates to making arguments in general. when he talks about admitting things are wrong in games but still likeing said game. i see so many people who think that because an opponant in argument conceded defeat about one thing that means they lost but it doesnt.
How come when men are portrayed half naked and traditionally handsome its "male power fantasy" and when women are portrayed half naked and traditionally beautifull its "objectifying"? Why can't that be a female powerfantasy?
The litmus test is:
1) Choose character.
2) Check for fanfiction of character.
Results:
1) There's fanfiction: sexualized.
2) There's no fanfiction: not sexualized.
3) There's queer fanfiction: sexualized but possibly with a queer target market in mind.
 

ManInRed

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It would be extremely limiting for any art form to be denied engaging in topics people would find offensive. No matter how much it might make me cringe sometimes, I hesitate to condemn any art for offending me. Instead I ask why I find something offensive.

Art is a reflection of society, and as long as our society has these negative aspects it will continued to be portrayed in art. More frequently though, the offense is not in the game's content but with the attitude towards their audience's expected response that bothers gamers so much. Gamers don't want to be accused as accepting any Ism, and worse gamers are still isolated enough to feel their community is being single out for these fault in society.

These offensive moments should be conversational pieces in the discussions to how to improve society. I think the backlash from gamers come from structuring the conversation like these are issues that only need to be fixed in games. That ignores the root cause, which is what we actually need to face rather than propping up games as the culprit.

That being said, no one can ignore the transformational power art can have on society. When it doesn't merely reflect on what we are, but causes us to reflect on what that is, art can change us and eventually change society. People are not wrong to clamor for games to do this, but it is only going to come about by offending our sensibilities, in a deeper more visceral way than the examples usually brought up.
 

m19

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Will the males be wearing bikinis and have implant-augmented tits shoved in them? Because then you might have a fair comparison.
Your example is blatantly false equivalence.

The equivalent of a female made to appeal to men is a man made to appeal to women. Not some ridiculous monstrosity made with the sole purpose of saying, "Screw you men!"
 

beetrain

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Were it so simple; once I learn there's something problematic about something I like, I can never look at it the same way again, like learning my best friend killed a baby.
Not that I'm resistant to criticism, it just makes me sad.
 

Beryl77

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Not entirely on topic but was mentioned in the vid, I really don't like it when people assume criticism = hate. It's happened so often that I criticise something on a forum and many assume I hate it. Just because I criticise it, doesn't mean I don't like it. In most cases when I criticise something, I do it because I like it so much and not because I dislike it and I'm getting really tired of having to explain that despite that, I still like it. Just wanted to say this.

Anyway, I get your point and I agree, some gamers are too eager to silence those who criticise games in this regard. But, I don't think it's as bad as you say it is. If we take the Anita shitstorm for example. I was there and here's how it happened:
A bit after she started her Kickstarter, people on /v started spamming it the whole fucking time. Keep in mind that there are about 200 million unique users on 4chan a year. There were a hundred threads per hour. So of course many watched and many got mad. The stupidest members went to her video and made rude and inappropriate comments because ''omg I'm so cool and she so stupid!!!11!1!''
Later another video from her got spammed again. Not as much as her first but I actually talked to a guy who got banned for making fifteen fucking threads about this video. He said something along these lines "women are trying to ruin gaming and this must be discussed." He couldn't give me any examples to back that up other than Halo 4. Of course he didn't say or maybe didn't know that in a follow up statement, XBL said that they weren't going to monitor Halo 4's servers any more closely or be more liberal with the bans than any other game.
He got banned again for ban evasion.

So basically, a small handful of idiots go out of their way and give people like Anita attention and justification. It's really annoying because I doubt she would have ever been funded without the massive attentionseeking campaign she was given by idiots.
And that's just an example. I realise that there are still people out there who think gaming is just a boys only club but it's just not as bad as some may think, when reading the news.

As for devs doing stupid things like the Hitman trailer or the preorder item for Dead Island, I may be oversimplifying it but I think it's just mostly anti social devs, who've been isolated from the world for too long or stupid marketing departments who don't know what their consumer base wants. Or maybe they know that exactly and do this kind of thing for free advertisement.
One thing that would make gaming more enjoyable for everyone is if it wasn't riddled with stereotypes. If it's one think that I'd want to get rid of in this world, it would be stereotypes and I'm talking about all stereotypes, not just women and black people. I mean all genders, ethnicities and sexualities.
Games, seem to have a problem with breaking out of them. At least many big mainstream games.
That's why I applaud nearly every game or at least every character who breaks the stereotypes that are typically associated with them, even if the character isn't that well written overall. Cortez from ME3 would be a good example. He's gay but it's not a big deal at all in the game. It's not even mentioned directly at all or discussed or anything like that. Well, the character itself isn't that deep, the only really defining feature is that he's worrying whether his husband is still alive, if I remember his story correctly. Still, Bioware didn't go yelling, "hey look, there's a gay character in the game! He's gay. Really." He's just there, part of the crew like everyone else, doesn't behave any different than all the other crew members.
 
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I have to agree, Jim. Games FINALLY have first amendment rights, so we don't need to freak out about games being taken from us. We SHOULD confront games when they pull shit like that, and say "Hey, that's not cool" and thus hopefully have less isms in future games.

DVS BSTrD said:
No! We need even MORE games! EVERYONE needs a games! Have gamers armed with DSs patrolling our schools.
AGREED! I think you and I will get along ve-

A national database to track all the JRPG loving deviants!
HEY! >: ( What's wrong with JRPGs?! *pulls his GBA on you* I got Golden Sun in there and I'm not afraid to use it!
 

JudgeGame

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m19 said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
Will the males be wearing bikinis and have implant-augmented tits shoved in them? Because then you might have a fair comparison.
Your example is blatantly false equivalence.

The equivalent of a female made to appeal to men is a man made to appeal to women. Not some ridiculous monstrosity made with the sole purpose of saying, "Screw you men!"
While you are completely correct, I think what's most interesting about the analogy is that it is dificult to find female fantasies that involve completely dehumanizing and humiliating their male sex object. That's not unexpected though, given the nature of sexism.
 

Mortamus

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I couldn't agree more. However, I do feel there is room for discussion on whether or not these things, and how the community receives them, can affect future game development in a bad way.
 

m19

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I have no problem accepting any "ism" when I agree it's there. Most of the time I think it's not.

Also someone needs to do actual representative research on these subjects. Because Anita, a twitter hashtag, or conclusions based on 4chan's rape threats, don't cut it.
 

JudgeGame

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aegix drakan said:
I have to agree, Jim. Games FINALLY have first amendment rights, so we don't need to freak out about games being taken from us. We SHOULD confront games when they pull shit like that, and say "Hey, that's not cool" and thus hopefully have less isms in future games.

DVS BSTrD said:
No! We need even MORE games! EVERYONE needs a games! Have gamers armed with DSs patrolling our schools.
AGREED! I think you and I will get along ve-

A national database to track all the JRPG loving deviants!
HEY! >: ( What's wrong with JRPGs?! *pulls his GBA on you* I got Golden Sun in there and I'm not afraid to use it!
All this could have been avoided if those games were carrying more games. We need metagames to ensure the safety of games from games with games for games...... games.
 

wizzy555

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aegix drakan said:
I have to agree, Jim. Games FINALLY have first amendment rights, so we don't need to freak out about games being taken from us. We SHOULD confront games when they pull shit like that, and say "Hey, that's not cool" and thus hopefully have less isms in future games.
Your first amendment has no power here in not-America land.

There is a large difference between "shut up you'll get games taken away" and "shut up you're talking nonsense". But since I've not read the comments Jim is talking about I'm not sure which to believe.
 

JudgeGame

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m19 said:
I have no problem accepting any "ism" when I agree it's there. Most of the time I think it's not.

Also someone needs to do actual representative research on these subjects. Because Anita, a twitter hashtag, or conclusions based on 4chan's rape threats, don't cut it.
I think you should watch the video again.
 

m19

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JudgeGame said:
While you are completely correct, I think what's most interesting about the analogy is that it is dificult to find female fantasies that involve completely dehumanizing and humiliating their male sex object. That's not unexpected though, given the nature of sexism.
Which male fantasies (in games) do that?
 

Yopaz

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I have to say I agree with the point that the people discussing are on extreme sides of each other. However the internet doesn't have a middle ground. You're either black or white, there's no grey in the middle or any other colour somewhere in the equation.

This is part of the reason there's so much hostility towards feminists. Extreme feminism inspires extreme misogyny. I tend to stay away from all sexism, feminism and homophobia debates because I don't get along with either extreme side and I don't want to be associated with either side.
 

Callate

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I was concerned that one significant point would be overlooked, but Jim sort of touched on it. I think many gamers fear that once we start accepting criticism of things like racism and sexism within the siege-engineered walls of our culture, we open the gates for criticism from the outside, no matter how ill-informed, misguided, or straight-out agenda-driven.

Now, yeah, that's not healthy. We need the people who are best informed about our medium and culture to be able to talk about it, including in ways that it falls short. And yet...

A recent article about the effect of "trolls" on Internet culture comes to mind, with its noting that such behavior drives everyone to extremes. I may dislike the way women are treated like rewards and ciphers in many games, or that dark-skinned characters are limited to shallow antagonists or stereotypical sidekicks in others. But I hesitate to take a position that might see me lumped in with those who reflexively treat any criticism of their criticism as misogyny, homophobia, or racism, who believe that because they're "fighting the good fight" it doesn't matter how scattershot their aim is or how many people who might be sympathetic to some of their broader ideals are utterly turned off of the issue by the hostility and presumptuousness of their rhetoric.

I read the Sophie Prell article Jim cited in the video. I genuinely winced at her account of the "I suck" t-shirt, and nodded at some of her points. But then I saw there was a link on the sentence, "Well, I'm not crazy", and I winced again, saying to myself, "What do you want to bet that's the 'gaslighting' article?"

...Yep.

I'll let anyone who cares to look up the article and its citation if they want; it's yet another case where while I grimace at recognition in some of the things it says, it also makes me say, "Yes, but... haven't you just given every woman one more handy catchphrase to dismiss any criticism directed towards their arguments? Do we need another piece of shorthand for anyone who is interested in addressing the middle ground to hurdle before getting into the meat of an actual point?" ("Look, I'm not a misogynist, I'm not blinded by my participation in the patriarchy, I'm not trying to gaslight you, and whether you were a man or a woman, you would still be coming off as a hysterical lunatic... YES, I'm fucking aware of the linguistic origins of the word 'hysteria'...")

I thought about the Mages Guild storyline in Skyrim, how yet again the pattern of a fallen leader giving up their mantle to the relatively inexperienced Player Character played out despite the existence of people with far greater seniority. But there weren't a large number of female NPCs who would have been the obvious choice to step forward to fill the role instead, and so that plotline went unremarked in Ms. Prell's article.

And I'm just so tired of anyone, no matter how noble their intentions, even obliquely implying that every woman, every homosexual character, every minority character has to be a role model. I've seen arguments tear even people who would otherwise be on the same side apart, with one side saying character "x" is deep and interesting and another saying those same traits the other side praise make that character stereotypical or a poor reflection on every other member of their minority. This is not progress- this is how we get characters who are designed by marketing departments and focus groups rather than goddamn writers.

Yes, I would be happy to see more strong female characters, more intelligent and emotionally moderate black and hispanic characters, more gay characters who are about more than their sexuality. But it's not my place to saddle any individual game- or games as a whole- with that as their responsibility. If we get there, we need to get there organically, in part by getting more people within those groups into the industry, and I think that will happen in time. But if I'm tired of rescuing Ms. Sex Object, that doesn't mean I want to see her replaced with Lt. Colonel Object Lesson- which seems the predictable result of certain kinds of pressure being brought to bear.

If we try to take the middle ground in these arguments, we often take fire both from the entrenched and those who besiege them. It may well be necessary, but let's not pretend for a moment that it's an easy step to make.
 

Moth_Monk

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Has anyone pointed out that Skyrim lets the player act like an asshole on purpose? Such as that guild where you get paid for KILLING people, or that cannibal one; nevermind being mean to some woman.


Jim's definitely jumped the shark:

No post credits scene? WTF?!
 

JudgeGame

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m19 said:
JudgeGame said:
While you are completely correct, I think what's most interesting about the analogy is that it is dificult to find female fantasies that involve completely dehumanizing and humiliating their male sex object. That's not unexpected though, given the nature of sexism.
Which male fantasies (in games) do that?
I have a hard time convincing myself this question even deserves an answer.
 

freaper

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I'm convinced that in a few years' time games too will be able to tackle these issues, just like previously novels and movies did. It probably won't be in AAA titles though, or at least not at first. The big market is still too immature for this kind of talk.
 

JudgeGame

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Yopaz said:
I have to say I agree with the point that the people discussing are on extreme sides of each other. However the internet doesn't have a middle ground. You're either black or white, there's no grey in the middle or any other colour somewhere in the equation.

This is part of the reason there's so much hostility towards feminists. Extreme feminism inspires extreme misogyny. I tend to stay away from all sexism, feminism and homophobia debates because I don't get along with either extreme side and I don't want to be associated with either side.
You only choose to believe that. Your view is not representative of the reality.
 

wizzy555

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Callate said:
I thought about the Mages Guild storyline in Skyrim, how yet again the pattern of a fallen leader giving up their mantle to the relatively inexperienced Player Character played out despite the existence of people with far greater seniority. But there weren't a large number of female NPCs who would have been the obvious choice to step forward to fill the role instead, and so that plotline went unremarked in Ms. Prell's article.
Eh? The dragonborne can be a woman, and the master wizard was a woman. The rank below arch-mage.