Jimquisition: Batman Is Everything Wrong With Square Enix

[KingdomFantasyXIII]

This seems less like everything that's wrong with Square Enix and more like everything that's wrong with Tetsuya Nomura.

Also isn't Jim a huge fan of Final Fantasy X? Because in terms of overdesigned aesthetics I think that's clearly the biggest offender in the franchise. I mean just compare the outfits of the playable cast in X to those in XIII. I also think the story in X is every bit as senseless and self-indulgent (and LINEAR), but it doesn't seem to draw nearly the same amount of ire.

You mean Jim Sterling is being hypocritical about his statements over Final Fantasy and Square Enix? It's as if he is just doing this to get clicks or something!

It's almost as if Jim knows that Square, you know, hired him and continues to employ him. That makes his mistakes their mistakes.

Square is a big company. This isn't some indie dev studio stuck using art created by their high school buddy because he will work for peanuts. This is Square Enix.

That doesn't make any sense. When and why did Square Enix hire Jim Sterling? I though he only worked at Destructoid and then went full time at The Escapist.

Square hired Tetsuya Nomura, the guy responsible for all the terrible art. "This seems less like everything that's wrong with Square Enix and more like everything that's wrong with Tetsuya Nomura." You responded, I responded to you. Sorry if it was unclear.

Oh, so that's what you are saying. it's not like people don't enjoy Nomura's designs. Seriously, Fans generally have accepted Nomura's style:
http://i.imgur.com/oWFnSsR.png
http://jtmgames.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/ffxiii_characters.jpg
http://img.webme.com/pic/p/parasiteeve/1peevol.jpg
http://www.otakustudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/suba_wp_04_1280x1024.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/68/Kingdomheartscharacters.jpg
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/129/9/f/final_fantasy_viii_character_artworks__nomura__by_zelu1984-d64ondk.png
http://fullgeekpower.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/final-fantasy-x-2.jpg
http://sleepyanarchy.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/the_id_by_bouncer_club.jpg

His art design is all over the place. I can only really think of the FF direct sequels (FF10-2, FF13-2, Lightning Returns, Advent children, etc) that had bad designs.

 

[JET1971]

Jim you have been hanging out with Yahtzee too much and it's showing. I thought for a second I was watching ZP with you instead of Yahtzee then realized you didnt say cock or bollocks every other sentence. The pacing was there though.

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

Lets be honest, Master Chief is not a well defined interesting character. HE had no personality for a number of games other than being an interstellar marine power ranger bad-ass. Most of the ICONIC characters JIM lists are actually just flat, they don't really have a personality either, they are abstact concepts. And that is great but it only allows for so much depth without breaking the icon.

Most 'iconic' game characters become so on the back of the quality or innovativeness of their games. Pac Man, Mario, Link, Master Chief, Samus, Solid Snake, Gordon Freeman, Cloud etc. are icons largely because their respective games are so popular and more often than not rather ground-breaking for their time. I'm not saying that characterisation doesn't play a part but can anyone suggest an icon of gaming that didn't come from a definitively great game?

Agreed, good character usually result from at least proficient games... now, I question the fact that "innovativeness" has anything to do with quality. And I don't think the first halo was anything special (I don't think anything about halo is particularly special tbh), but in general that's exactly the point.
If the games are bad, then it's not likely that the characters will be memorable at all, no matter how interesting their design is.
And the opposite is true too: If a game is very good, and the characters aren't particularly exciting, they might become iconic out of the merit of the game.

 

[dochmbi]

A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery

 

[DrOswald]

This seems less like everything that's wrong with Square Enix and more like everything that's wrong with Tetsuya Nomura.

Also isn't Jim a huge fan of Final Fantasy X? Because in terms of overdesigned aesthetics I think that's clearly the biggest offender in the franchise. I mean just compare the outfits of the playable cast in X to those in XIII. I also think the story in X is every bit as senseless and self-indulgent (and LINEAR), but it doesn't seem to draw nearly the same amount of ire.

You mean Jim Sterling is being hypocritical about his statements over Final Fantasy and Square Enix? It's as if he is just doing this to get clicks or something!

It's almost as if Jim knows that Square, you know, hired him and continues to employ him. That makes his mistakes their mistakes.

Square is a big company. This isn't some indie dev studio stuck using art created by their high school buddy because he will work for peanuts. This is Square Enix.

That doesn't make any sense. When and why did Square Enix hire Jim Sterling? I though he only worked at Destructoid and then went full time at The Escapist.

Square hired Tetsuya Nomura, the guy responsible for all the terrible art. "This seems less like everything that's wrong with Square Enix and more like everything that's wrong with Tetsuya Nomura." You responded, I responded to you. Sorry if it was unclear.

Oh, so that's what you are saying. it's not like people don't enjoy Nomura's designs. Seriously, Fans generally have accepted Nomura's style:
http://i.imgur.com/oWFnSsR.png
http://jtmgames.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/ffxiii_characters.jpg
http://img.webme.com/pic/p/parasiteeve/1peevol.jpg
http://www.otakustudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/suba_wp_04_1280x1024.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/68/Kingdomheartscharacters.jpg
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/129/9/f/final_fantasy_viii_character_artworks__nomura__by_zelu1984-d64ondk.png
http://fullgeekpower.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/final-fantasy-x-2.jpg
http://sleepyanarchy.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/the_id_by_bouncer_club.jpg

His art design is all over the place. I can only really think of the FF direct sequels (FF10-2, FF13-2, Lightning Returns, Advent children, etc) that had bad designs.

I never said I don't like any of his designs, should have made that clearer. He has done some really good stuff. In fact, taken in a vacuum I like most of his designs. It is when many of them come together and are competing for attention that this is a problem. You can't have 5 things on screen that scream "LOOK AT ME!!!"

This was largely my problem with the Final Fantasy XIII art direction. Strictly speaking there wasn't anything in there I didn't like. But there were so many things in there it just becomes an indecipherable mess. I like Vanille or Lightning. I don't like Vanille and Lightning. And it just got worse as XIII-2 and XIII-3 were released. I like Lightning's costumes in both those games. But in context they look terrible.

This is also the major problem with the story of Final Fantasy XIII. The story was just so cluttered with junk, very little of which was independently bad, that it became a mess (also, it seems like Square did everything they could to make me absolutely despise Lightning on a personal level.) I really tried hard with Final Fantasy XIII. I played it for 26 hours and the story never came together.

But in any case, if Tetsuya Nomura is to blame for the art problem then that doesn't let Square as an organization off the hook.

 

[Vigormortis]

That Batman reminds me of Terrorblade from DotA 2.

I see I wasn't the only one. The first time I saw the design I had thought it was some Workshop creation being prepped for release. Perhaps even some new Arcana item for Terrorblade.

But even then the design is shit. Way too busy.

Anyway, on topic:
Brilliant observation, Jim. And that final fade-to-black rant was a great touch.

 

[Something Amyss]

Yeah I know, you have to be wary of stuff on Steam that isn't a big budget release (unfortunately). With these though they don't look like they'd be another Earth 2066 or Flight Control. They actually have gameplay trailers. ...what am I going on about? I haven't even played these games? Getting the kind of game the Square-Enix used to make would be nice though.

Any in particular? I'm just curious because I can't think of any specifically in this vein and would like to check 'em out if possible.

 

[KingdomFantasyXIII]

This seems less like everything that's wrong with Square Enix and more like everything that's wrong with Tetsuya Nomura.

Also isn't Jim a huge fan of Final Fantasy X? Because in terms of overdesigned aesthetics I think that's clearly the biggest offender in the franchise. I mean just compare the outfits of the playable cast in X to those in XIII. I also think the story in X is every bit as senseless and self-indulgent (and LINEAR), but it doesn't seem to draw nearly the same amount of ire.

You mean Jim Sterling is being hypocritical about his statements over Final Fantasy and Square Enix? It's as if he is just doing this to get clicks or something!

It's almost as if Jim knows that Square, you know, hired him and continues to employ him. That makes his mistakes their mistakes.

Square is a big company. This isn't some indie dev studio stuck using art created by their high school buddy because he will work for peanuts. This is Square Enix.

That doesn't make any sense. When and why did Square Enix hire Jim Sterling? I though he only worked at Destructoid and then went full time at The Escapist.

Square hired Tetsuya Nomura, the guy responsible for all the terrible art. "This seems less like everything that's wrong with Square Enix and more like everything that's wrong with Tetsuya Nomura." You responded, I responded to you. Sorry if it was unclear.

Oh, so that's what you are saying. it's not like people don't enjoy Nomura's designs. Seriously, Fans generally have accepted Nomura's style:
http://i.imgur.com/oWFnSsR.png
http://jtmgames.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/ffxiii_characters.jpg
http://img.webme.com/pic/p/parasiteeve/1peevol.jpg
http://www.otakustudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/suba_wp_04_1280x1024.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/68/Kingdomheartscharacters.jpg
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/129/9/f/final_fantasy_viii_character_artworks__nomura__by_zelu1984-d64ondk.png
http://fullgeekpower.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/final-fantasy-x-2.jpg
http://sleepyanarchy.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/the_id_by_bouncer_club.jpg

His art design is all over the place. I can only really think of the FF direct sequels (FF10-2, FF13-2, Lightning Returns, Advent children, etc) that had bad designs.

I never said I don't like any of his designs, should have made that clearer. He has done some really good stuff. In fact, taken in a vacuum I like most of his designs. It is when many of them come together and are competing for attention that this is a problem. You can't have 5 things on screen that scream "LOOK AT ME!!!"

This was largely my problem with the Final Fantasy XIII art direction. Strictly speaking there wasn't anything in there I didn't like. But there were so many things in there it just becomes an indecipherable mess. I like Vanille or Lightning. I don't like Vanille and Lightning. And it just got worse as XIII-2 and XIII-3 were released. I like Lightning's costumes in both those games. But in context they look terrible.

This is also the major problem with the story of Final Fantasy XIII. The story was just so cluttered with junk, very little of which was independently bad, that it became a mess (also, it seems like Square did everything they could to make me absolutely despise Lightning on a personal level.) I really tried hard with Final Fantasy XIII. I played it for 26 hours and the story never came together.

But in any case, if Tetsuya Nomura is to blame for the art problem then that doesn't let Square as an organization off the hook.

>This was largely my problem with the Final Fantasy XIII art direction. Strictly speaking there wasn't anything in there I didn't like. But there were so many things in there it just becomes an indecipherable mess.

Um, what? That doesn't make any sense. The majority of FF13's art direction was pretty good. How can it be a "mess" and yet seem good? That is a basic contradiction.

>I like Vanille or Lightning. I don't like Vanille and Lightning

Um, Vanille's design wasn't very good, but Lightning's was. It's easy to point out one bad thing in an art design. You have to point out many bad things in order to actually say "This is bad art design"

And it just got worse as XIII-2 and XIII-3 were released. I like Lightning's costumes in both those games. But in context they look terrible.

First of all: Direct sequels in general from Final Fantasy having some bad designs yes. Second of all: Lightning's costumes could easily be changed up so that you chose what you wanted to see. It's actually a good design choice to be able to choose what a character wears and it reflects your idea about what the character looks like.

>This is also the major problem with the story of Final Fantasy XIII. The story was just so cluttered with junk, very little of which was independently bad, that it became a mess (also, it seems like Square did everything they could to make me absolutely despise Lightning on a personal level.)

No it wasn't. Also, just because you don't like a character does not mean everybody does. I despise Ryuko from Kill La Kill but that doesn't mean everybody does.

>But in any case, if Tetsuya Nomura is to blame for the art problem then that doesn't let Square as an organization off the hook.

Or it could be one person and you should not blame the many for the actions of a few. You know, because making a generalized statement like that has NEVER caused problems before hand.

 

[RJ 17]

I believe Yahtzee put it best when it comes to Square-Enix: they don't want to make games anymore, they want to make CGI movies. At this point I've been done with SE for a long time and have plenty of negative things to say about what they've done with the Final Fantasy franchise since the last game I thoroughly enjoyed (FFTactics for the PS1), but one thing I do have to give to them: they can make stunningly beautiful cutscenes and animations, "busy" character designs aside.

The only problem is that even if they did cut out the middle man and go into making straight-up movies instead of games, they'd still run into the problem that has knee-capped every FF game since 8: the crappy, horrendous, mind-numbing, grotesquely bad, moronically stupid writing.

 

[RA92]

That was a beautiful rant. Thank you.

 

[RJ Dalton]

The only fallacy I'd point out in this video is that Jim accused Lightning of having no personality but briefly lionized Link a few moments prior. Other than that, the things he's saying aren't wrong, even if I don't agree with all of them. The core concepts of Final Fantasy XIII, one of my favorite games of the seventh generation, are actually pretty simplistic, but it obfuscates those concepts in a miasma of bizarre proper nouns and the narrative does rail on a bit.

When he brought up Link, it was to laud his design. When he mentioned Lightning being unmemorable, he brought up her lack of personality as an aside. The two are not actually related points if you pay attention.

But yeah, Square-Enix really lost me a while ago. The designs are one thing, but what he said about the plot being all detail and no central theme is pretty accurate and that's why I gave up on them. Sometimes they do have really interesting little bits, but it never gels into a coherent whole that's worth the money they ask me to spend on their games.

 

[SnowWookie]

Ohhh that Jim, he's a clever one!

He makes a point about games and characters where design and gameplay are buried under layers of over design and needless ostentation in a rant that is itself overly verbose. How very meta!

"If brevity is the soul of wit then square enix must be some of the most witless fuckers ever"

THAT was a fucking great line. Witty and succinct. Shame he didn't listen to his own advice.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Yeah I know, you have to be wary of stuff on Steam that isn't a big budget release (unfortunately). With these though they don't look like they'd be another Earth 2066 or Flight Control. They actually have gameplay trailers. ...what am I going on about? I haven't even played these games? Getting the kind of game the Square-Enix used to make would be nice though.

Any in particular? I'm just curious because I can't think of any specifically in this vein and would like to check 'em out if possible.

The ones I'm thinking of are The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky and Skyborn. The thing with Legend of Heroes, the one girl looks just a little too perky.

 

[Demonchaser27]

I'm guessing that if you went on a friends picnic with Square Enix, the sandwiches would be overdesigned...

"We've designed this sandwich using 27 different kinds of bread. It was worked on by 15 teams of bakers overseen by a corporate hierarchy (because what would bakers know about bread?). To recoup our costs, each sandwich will cost 75 dollars. Sandwiches wll be discontinued if we fail to sell at least 30,000, because people clearly don't want sandwiches."

Never in my life have I seen three sentences better encapsulate the entire issue with most massive, "AAA" corporate game publishers/developers. Too much extravagance? Check. Too much spending? Check. All leading to far too much cost for everyone involved? Check. Misinterpretation of people's desires? Check. In fact your statement also proves that quality can be far superior to quantity.

 

[gamegod25]

Wow that was my first time seeing that rendition of Batman and...wow that is a fucking mess. It's all just so over the top and beyond ridiculous and just assaults the eyes. Those two skeleton arms poking out his shoulders in particular are laughably stupid to me. Just...wtf were they thinking?

you just compared Square Enix to Rob Liefeld 0__0

holy shit you're right!

Yeah and that's not someone you want to be compare to imo. There really is something to be said for the purity of simplicity and just plain memorable design. All that overzealous detail and extraneous bits just blend together in a blob of forgettable noise. To go back to that Batman costume, if I hadn't been told specifically thats what it was supposed to be I may never have guessed it was actually supposed to be Batman and not some generic fantasy evil knight monster.

That really is the heart of the problem with FF and Sqaure Enix, all flash and no substance. The visuals look pretty no doubt but why should we care or remember them? The characters are either dull or obnoxious. The stories requires a small novella of footnotes do understand whats going on and pulls shit right out of their asses that we are just supposed to accept. If there was ever a perfect example that visuals alone do not make a good game then FF has that in spades.

 

[Fox12]

Hahaha, this is the funniest shit I've seen in ages. It pretty much sums up my opinion. Jims not even angry, he's just confused by the whole ordeal, by the stupid flashy style, by the horrible business decisions, by everything. Square used to be the greatest gaming company in the world. Mostly people just want to see them pull themselves back together. It's just sort of sad I haven't even touched a Square game in a decade...

This is why I like the designs in Persona significantly more. The characters have an appealing artistic design, and look like they were almost designed for a fashion magazine. Yet the designs are incredibly simple, giving us something to latch onto. Their simple charm makes the characters more endearing. More than that, they tell you everything you need to know about a character at first glance. Yukiko, though not my favorite character, had one of the best designs in P4. You understood pretty quickly that she was the mature lady like character. The same goes for Chie, who had a radically different design, but who was still visually appealing (from an art stand point) and who still communicated information about herself through the way she dressed. Final Fantasy needs to learn how to make appealing, simplistic designs. Less is more. Simple is not the same as shallow, or as bad.

I remember the designs from FF7, a game where Nomura was character designer. Cloud had lose fitting pants and a simple shirt suited for combat. Aerith wore a pink dress. Barret wore military pants and a t-shirt. The designs were simple, told us about the characters, and were easily remembered. Nomura really needs to go back to basics, as does the entirety of Square Enix.

 

[Demonchaser27]

I disagree Jim

Graphics OBVIOUSLY ARE NOT that expensive.

Metro Last Light? One of the best looking games EVER made, makes EVERYTHING Square Enix did look like shit. It makes em look like morons.
And it was done on a small budget.

F*cking STALKER Clear Sky from 2008 looks better then any PS3/360 exclusive ever made, with advanced physics and effects and UNMATCHED AI...
On a small budget. It STILL LOOKS impressive in 2014. Damn.


It is not the engines and the graphis nor even the art that is expensive. QA, Optimization for bad hardware (consoles...), Voice acting by hollywoond actors and INSANE marketing. That is expensive.

Tech? Not so much

Yes. It's been pretty evident that this is the case for several years now. Indie devs have been making "pretty" games, not always good ones but still, for a relatively cheap cost in recent years as well. It's quite hilarious every time they blame it on the tech. Especially in a world that's only been trying to make game engines cost LESS over time. Hell, even man hours for graphics aren't entirely ridiculous these days. You know, with graphical engines which can smooth out edges and light objects as well as optimize the models and textures all with a few clicks of the mouse. If anything takes a lot of man hours its programming. And ironically games lack a ton load of the depth that older RPGs and even other genres had several years ago. Most things are entirely scripted sequences these days which takes much less time to program than programming possibilities into your game, REAL options and choices. And to top it all off, it takes far less time to bug fix since the player has little to no input. And still games have far more bugs today than ever before.

No, the thing is... They don't want to tell the truth. They don't want people to find out that the most wasteful things they do are what makes the games expensive. They want to blame it on things that are necessary to games so that we believe that "it's just the way it has to be". If they found that out then people would blame the companies rather than the customer for "demanding too much" out of them.

 

[LostPause]

Agreed, good character usually result from at least proficient games... now, I question the fact that "innovativeness" has anything to do with quality. And I don't think the first halo was anything special (I don't think anything about halo is particularly special tbh), but in general that's exactly the point.

Halo was the flagship FPS for the XBox and was therefore adopted by Xboxers [and Microsoft] as their esxclusive mascot. Let's be honest, everyone else doesn't really care all that much about Master Chief [the most they'll tell you is that he's that Guy from Halo] but he's special to Xboxers. The market has since widened but there was a time where if someone said they were going to play an FPS on their Xbox, Halo was that game.

Plus it did have some fun vehicles and weapons if I remember correctly.

 

[Cecilthedarkknight_234]

Jim why not bring up the issue that square-enix of japan is blocking 10 dragon quest games not coming to the west!! I mean Nintendo of america and Square-Enix of America are willing to localize most the said games below but no-one even seems to care. I know this franchise has never been widely popular here like final fantasy, however it still deserves a chance. Aye.. Maybe I should just keep my thoughts/opinions to myself on this issues, my apologies to everyone for the off-topic rant.

I realize there are only 6 games in the image but I did not include the 25 anniversary addition for the wii with dragon quest 1-3 "super famicom and famicom versions" in really collectors set. Also there is the original release of dragon quest x for the wii but that system is offically dead in here and japan now. Then we have the ios port of dragon quest 1 which has gotten mixed reviews but come-on sqauare-enix can't even release a mobile game that has already been translated twice?? Lastly is the port of dragon quest x for the 3ds which is most likely not coming here as well given the recent pattern of dq games released in the west.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

If you were to switch out the focus of this episode from a game, to the Japanese fashion market ... you would have the EXACT same argument.

"All design, no style...." couldn't have said it better, Jim.

And you need only to look at Japanese fashion, and the self consuming parasite that it is to see why it is so. The accessorization of accessoRIES. The empty, arduous pursuits of Western-style fashionble fixtures, without Western minimalist grace. Final fantasy games WILL CONTINUE to look like half-a-billion colour and fabric choices at any one time, because the Japanese fashion market is like that.

The end result of 20 years of fashion-dominated 'personas' ...

Japanese game developers think it looks cool, so they will keep pandering to the ever consuming death spiral of over-accesorization, because there is NO ELEGANCE in the Japanese teenage fashion market. You go to Shibuya, Shinjuku or Harajuku ... it's enough to give you a migraine. Just looking at people, it's enough to give you a migraine.


It gets to the point of trashy, it passed gaudy 280 miles back.... A fucking sundress does not need 14 other articulations! It's pretty much a fucking world standard that a sundress is meant to be an elegant, simple piece of apparel. Not so in Japan ... and thus, a game character in a simple cami and skirt in the next Final Fantasy game isn't likely to happen.

They'll require stupidly impractical hair that would look ugly on any day they didn't dedicate 12 hours to it ... a mountain of colour-coded bracelets, bangles, earrings, bracers, ... ehhh ...