Jimquisition: Boob Wars and Dragon Crowns

[Lyvric]

I'm impressed by this and the cull video you did. As a member of the female portion of this species, thanks!

 

[SageRuffin]

People losing their minds over this, have they not seen queens blade or scarlet blade. I forget wich it is called =\

If no one else has said it already... those are two different franchises with similar themes. Queen's Blade is the fantasy version. Scarlet Blade is the Sci-Fi version.

It's not all bad. The character designs just happen to be what they are. The two franchises actually have some decent plot points going on (such as the tournament to determine the next queen of the land in the former and the massive war of the latter).

 

[Voulan]

I'll admit when I first saw the Sorceress I was quite angry, mostly because it was a case of 'here we go again, another female character whom I want nothing to do with'. When I saw the rest of the designs, though, I took back my hate, because it was clearly a design choice. A bloody horrible one, but one nonetheless.

What got to me more was reading threads about the issue. People being shouted down for being feminists, and to 'get the f*** over it, it happens to men too', and that 'you're not allowed to be offended, everyone gets offended too easily.' The term feminazi really is a horrid one - is someone wanting female equality really in the same vein as a group widely known for attempting to kill an entire culture of people?

Games that should be discussed are ones like Scarlet Blade, where the characters are such obvious titillation that I actually get angry whenever I see ads for it. I keep begging for female characters, so why do you keep designing them for men instead of people like me?

 

[AyaReiko]

Honestly, if you don't like it on any merit, then don't buy it. If not enough people don't buy it, then things will certainly change. However, I sense one particular thing will come into play...

The Streisand Effect

And thus, by whining and complaining about a game in such a way, it will be guaranteed that even more people will get the thing. And therefore more games will be made like this. It's really that simple.

I swear there's a different Jimquisition here somewhere...

- - - - -

And for those of you who insist on throwing monkey feces around and other douchebaggery, I have one thing you really need.

It's one size fits all, and there's plenty for everyone. And sometimes, I wish the mods would use it more often...

 

[TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY]

C'mon, we know it's all or nothing with "feminists". Look at commercials, not once would you see women receive any kind of harm(without it getting banned), yet men are the brunt of slapstick all the time.

Through hard work and perseverance woman have managed to tear down most of the "no girls allowed" signs, and every club and golf course that went through it had to deal with these guys.

While women keep many "no boys allowed" signs up, not a ringing endorsement of "equality".

 

[Jayemsal]

I am sorry, Jim, but this is just not going to happen.

No one is interested in discussion and conversation, those things are not worthy of attention.

Instead, lobbing insults and arguing from end to end is the norm, and it will not change because people just like to get themselves into a lather instead of getting anything properly talked about.

It's why I scarce make a thread these days, or even try to reply to most I see. I barely see anyone interested in it. Why bother?

I'll just keep watching your contributions. They do a lot more to advance the issue than a hundred threads in these forums and beyond.

You took the words right out of my mouth verbatim. Truth is not just in the gaming industry but also in academic, scientific, religious, and political debates very few people are interested in discussion.

Everything eventually comes down to generalizations, red herrings, slander, and shouting. No one learns anything, the discussion itself becomes moot compared to the mudslinging, and nothing has changed.

It is why I only really look at certain videos and news articles on the Escapist because the user discussions very rarely have any real discussion.

I hope this trend of not discussing dies but I haven't seen any evidence contrary to what is currently going on.

This is usually how this type of "discussion" goes (this was from a few weeks ago).

There's a group of people that like something or want to discuss something rationally and calmly:

For instance with "Dragon's Crown", this character was revealed a long time ago and most fans of Vanillaware's games were happy with it, there was great anticipation and a shitload of fanart from both men and women surrounding the game.
This article for instance is from June 2011: http://www.examiner.com/article/the-sorceress-of-dragon-s-crown-inspires-hundreds-of-fan-made-illustrations

You can imagine this woman in the role of an utterly annoying Jason Schreier:

And then there's the general feminists screaming and flailing about how horrible everyone is for liking/enjoying or trying to discuss something that they don't approve of:

Of course, there will also be a group of people who insist on calling them out, for instance in this case Jason Schreier and telling them that they are fucking idiotic in return, and they also often go too far (these are often portrayed as the only "bad guys" in these kind of debates).

I find it funny that a """gaming journalist""" who posts an approximately 50-long word """article""" on a rag like Kotaku: http://kotaku.com/game-developers-really-need-to-stop-letting-teenage-boy-472724616 and in that alone manages to disrespect a developer and studio head in all manner of ways, from calling him a teenage boy, a 14-year-old (despite being in his mid 40's) and basically saying that he has no talent and "at least works cheap", as well as anything else that is being implied by that is called "starting a discussion" nowadays.

Boy, I should totally start more discussions on things.

Thanks for posting the inevitable thread ruining post.

I hope you're proud.

 

[LetalisK]

I might get the sexualization argument more if the Sorceress, and especially the Amazon, were sexy in the first place. I can kinda see the Sorceress, but then I saw the video of the Sorceress and her boobs flopping everywhere and I don't get how anyone could find that titillating. Maybe it's just me.

 

[Snowblindblitz]

I'll admit when I first saw the Sorceress I was quite angry, mostly because it was a case of 'here we go again, another female character whom I want nothing to do with'. When I saw the rest of the designs, though, I took back my hate, because it was clearly a design choice. A bloody horrible one, but one nonetheless.

What got to me more was reading threads about the issue. People being shouted down for being feminists, and to 'get the f*** over it, it happens to men too', and that 'you're not allowed to be offended, everyone gets offended too easily.' The term feminazi really is a horrid one - is someone wanting female equality really in the same vein as a group widely known for attempting to kill an entire culture of people?

Games that should be discussed are ones like Scarlet Blade, where the characters are such obvious titillation that I actually get angry whenever I see ads for it. I keep begging for female characters, so why do you keep designing them for men instead of people like me?

Shush, you're being calm and rational. No place for that now!

As I browsed through the character designs, I didn't bat an eyelash at that. If the rest of the game's art was grounded in realism...well....we'd have a new ball game.

Reminds me of the fiasco of Sarkenissan (sp) dismissing Zia's character as a damsel in distress, doing that whole snap-shooting a single aspect (oh he has to go save her) to further an argument when reality (she left on her own to explore her own culture and find her own path) disagrees with her.

 

[TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY]

I'll admit when I first saw the Sorceress I was quite angry, mostly because it was a case of 'here we go again, another female character whom I want nothing to do with'. When I saw the rest of the designs, though, I took back my hate, because it was clearly a design choice. A bloody horrible one, but one nonetheless.

What got to me more was reading threads about the issue. People being shouted down for being feminists, and to 'get the f*** over it, it happens to men too', and that 'you're not allowed to be offended, everyone gets offended too easily.' The term feminazi really is a horrid one - is someone wanting female equality really in the same vein as a group widely known for attempting to kill an entire culture of people?

Games that should be discussed are ones like Scarlet Blade, where the characters are such obvious titillation that I actually get angry whenever I see ads for it. I keep begging for female characters, so why do you keep designing them for men instead of people like me?

Not that I disagree with your thoughts on this game, but answer me this what good is/has feminism even done recently? Sure the vote, but that's a given.

 

[Gigano]

...
Thus, I suspect you're severely exaggerating the impact of a controversy over concept art and social media etiquette on actual sales data. Most people who buy games don't care about this shit. They aren't going to read some article about this controversy and go "wow, some dude implied another dude liked cock on facebook, I'd better check out this game he's making to see if it's any good".
...

No, they're not.

But they'll know the game exist, which is the first hurdle to overcome, and as the controversy run, they'll be exposed to information about it. The controversy stuff in itself does nothing for sales, it's all about the exposure gained. Which, for a very small game without much in the way of western PR, is solid gold.

So really, we can debate the minor publicity merits of controversy all we want, but what will ultimately determine success or failure of this game, as with any game, is whether it's good and whether people are likely to enjoy playing it, because really.. what proportion of people will buy a game (an interactive experience based on gameplay) because it has tits in it, particularly when the concept art is already on the internet for everyone to wank off to for free? Now we're talking statistically insignificant.

Well, leaving the whole eroge business aside, who'd buy a car - a mechanical object for everyday transportation - because it'd been consistently marketed in TV spots with hot women sitting on it pouring champagne all over themselves?

Not many, but it might make that model stick in their heads, making them examine that model the next time they're in the market for a car. Which is half the marketing battle. If sex didn't sell, then it wouldn't be so prevalent in marketing.

The fact is, Kotaku was already talking about this game before Kamitani did his lolgay thing and they certainly didn't need to do that. Neither do they particularly need to follow it's development further, or indeed the development of future games from the same studio, if nothing else because it's a relatively small studio in Japan without a very strong English language media division and with a CEO who clearly doesn't understand how social media PR works in the most basic sense.

Kotaku's thing is its extensive coverage of otaku subculture. And I'm pretty sure they're not going to ignore future western releases from ATLUS. They weren't covering the game because small studio in Japan, they were covering it because it was getting a translated western release by the major player which releases the rather famous Persona games, alongside various other titles such as Catherine.

Professionalism is not optional.

No.

But it need not always take inoffensive forms. For instance, if marketing an exploitation movie, the professional thing to do would be to stir up as much controversy as possible. The same could be said for certain low profile indie games with a potentially broader appeal than the niche which already know of them. Only here it was of course pure luck that another gaming website felt like profiting off the hits generating by gender controversy, bringing Dragon's Crown to general attention in the process. Everybody wins... except the prudish.

 

[Gigano]

...
I posit that it is essential that interested people discuss and debate the nature of games, films, and the like. The Sorceress from Dragon's Crown is an ideal example. Because of the portrayal of the Sorceress, and regardless of the intentions of the artist, many consumers may feel further isolated from the gaming market. If an artist holds the view that the objectification or overt sexualisation of women is okay, they will likely reflect that view in their work. If that work is successful, an argument is made for the promotion of material that in turn promotes the objectification or overt sexualisation of women. Rational discussion tempers that process; it allows for consumers and potential consumers to voice their preferences, which can then lead to the artist reviewing their work and changing their approach in the future.

Assuming of course there's an overlap between the people criticizing it, and the consumer group(s) the game is aimed at. If those criticizing aren't even potential consumers, then their opinions are worthless. It's none of their business what other people choose to play in the privacy of their own home, what right do they have to interfere with products aimed them?

That said, there is another way to rid the market of questionable and offensive content. If a rational criticism makes readers less inclined to support the artist and that sentiment grows, the artist's work and its messages stop spreading. This is the harsher but just as effective method of ideas evolving.

Again assuming there's an overlap between the people criticizing it, and the consumer group it's aimed at. You can't really boycott something you weren't going to buy anyway.

A critic is not defined by the constructive nature of their criticisms but by the simple fact that they critique things. To critique something is nothing more or less than to judge that thing critically and make a critical assessment.

Only constructive criticism is worth concerning oneself with though.

If the criticism respected the premise of the product, and was aimed at creating a more sexy sorceress, then it'd be worthwhile. As is, it's simply people trying to substitute their own vision with that of the designer. Most of whom undoubtedly weren't going to buy the game anyway, even if the sorceress suddenly became an AA-cup. Hence their "criticism" - or rather puritanical moralizing - is no more relevant than that of the people who complain about violent video games, without actually playing violent video games.

 

[Voulan]

Not that I disagree with your thoughts on this game, but answer me this what good is/has feminism even done recently? Sure the vote, but that's a given.

Well, since I'm not a feminist, I can't really say. But why would you dismiss their past accomplishment? Feminism is a social movement, not an actual organisation, so it's brilliant that its done that much.

We've been over this in one of the Scarlet Blade thread, not everyone is the same and you shouldn't project your dislikes and "getting angry" on an entire gender. This thread in the Scarlet Blade forum [http://www.aeriagames.com/forums/en/viewtopic.php?t=1793473] someone discovered is about 70-80% women of all sorts of ages, backgrounds and even some mothers playing the game happily and enjoying it. Some even specifically stating that the character designs are one of the main reasons for playing the game.

No, I'm not angry at the people that play the game. What I'm angry at its advertising and design as a game about sexualised women. The ads I've seen show the characters in suggestive poses with tags like "it's getting hot in here, so take off all your clothes" and "wanna play with me?". That's blatant pandering. It's even worse that some of the characters are clearly underage. It's the same issue I had with the Hitman Absolution trailer, as did many people.

 

[zefichan]

Both sides are equally bad? Last that I checked, the rape threats on the subject mostly came from the MRA male nerds defending the game.

 

[Gigano]

...
First, it's sort of silly to say how one would make a finished product better, especially one that takes years and tens of millions to make. It's not like the makers of shit movies then go back and redo the whole thing, innit.

They'll probably do another movie in the same vein though.

And despite what you may think, there is merit in pointing out flaws for its own sake. So that OTHERS may learn, for one. So they know WHY something is bad. It is not mere self-serving arrogance to point out plot holes, feeble characters, bad dialogue etc. It serves to remind those who care about such things that there are still some bloody standards in this world.

Others making products in the same vein, that is. Others hoping to make a better RPG incorporating cartoonish version of classic D&D designs won't learn much from all this "critique" about sexy = evil. It's irrelevant moralizing based in anti-sexuality prudishness.

Plus, nobody is keeping you from enjoying anything. I enjoy my fair share of universally panned media, but a critical mind should know why it enjoys those things.

Well, if the things eventually disappear, then it'll be hard to enjoy them.

 

[axlryder]

I'm honestly more pissed about people insulting the artwork for being "bad" because it's "juvenille" than the sexism thing. I'm Not saying art isn't open to criticism, but the criticism I've seen of the sorceress is fucking dumb. "Ohhh, it looks like it was designed by a 14 y/o, thus shit". fuck you. There's so much more fucking finesse put into that design than what you could probably even realize even if you weren't looking at it through a lens of bias because you apparently think indulging a specific aesthetic preference makes you a man-child. Just say you find the big tits unappealing or the provocative design sexist. I'm not saying I'd be totally on board with what you'd be saying then, but at least it doesn't come off like an ignorant pot-shot. At least then you're not insulting artwork that you're clearly not even properly assessing from a stylistic or design standpoint.

I'm surprised how riled up I got about that.

 

[cannedfury]

But... the Elf looks near-identical to the Dead or Alive girls where Jim dedicated an entire video to disapproving their aesthetics. It does show how just how much not trying objectify a design alters its image, though. Not to mention how ironically adding clothes can make it sexier to some people.

While I'm going to get crucified for this, I could never appreciate how progressive Jade's design was. I didn't even notice how sensibly she was dressed, midriff aside, until this vid pointed it out. Her color scheme was green to the point of nausea-inducing that every time I saw her blotch of green lipstick, all I could think was it was an attempt to be hip and sexy gone sickly wrong. Then I look at a lingerie model punch a t-rex and think, "Yeah, that looks perfectly fine." Aside from being subjective, visual preference is so far divorced from logic, it's going to be one of those speed bumps in these discussions. People are going to be explaining how impractical and objectifying chainmail bikinis are while others like me get confused and go, "What do you mean? That color palette and composition are perfectly competent. You're just tasteless."

 

[MoeMints]

I think the most awkward thing about this is that ironically enough, Vanillaware is doing a lot to have respectable female main characters and Dragon's Crown is the exception, not the rule.

I've seen a lot of people see Gwendolyn as one of their favorite characters. The protagonists are often actually very small compared to the behemoths that the supporting staff can be as well.
Is that being ignored over mentioning Beyond Good and Evil again?

That and we're STILL using DOA and KOF as examples?
Itagaki is gone, and DOA5 is pretty conservative on the main outfits and character models.
(Outside that manual boob jiggle and Other M, but blame the latter on creator direction and godawful localization)
Meanwhile, its like Kula, King, Yuri, Elisabeth, Blue Mary, Leona, Athena, Vanessa, Whip, Chizuru, Foxy, May Lee, and others don't exist because Mai is in.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

I'm honestly more pissed about people insulting the artwork for being "bad" because it's "juvenille" than the sexism thing. I'm Not saying art isn't open to criticism, but the criticism I've seen of the sorceress is fucking dumb. "Ohhh, it looks like it was designed by a 14 y/o, thus shit". fuck you. There's so much more fucking finesse put into that design than what you could probably even realize even if you weren't looking at it through a lens of bias because you apparently think indulging a specific aesthetic preference makes you a man-child. Just say you find the big tits unappealing or the provocative design sexist. I'm not saying I'd be totally on board with what you'd be saying then, but at least it doesn't come off like an ignorant pot-shot. At least then you're not insulting artwork that you're clearly not even properly assessing from a stylistic or design standpoint.

I'm surprised how riled up I got about that.

There are no shortage of ignorant people lining up to wipe their shit encrusted fingers all over the work done by very, very talented artists like George Kamitani who specialise in exaggerating the human form for effect. You only need to compare a selection [https://www.google.com.au/search?q=George%20Kamitani&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=hI9_UaOkJ8yWiQfu4IHQCA&biw=1280&bih=864&sei=h49_Ue2YJYK8kAXhnoCgBQ] of Mr. Kamitani's work against the monkey scribblings of an idiot like Rob Liefeld [https://www.google.com.au/search?q=rob%20liefeld&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=tY9_UZT4G7GwiQe-3YDYCw&biw=1280&bih=864&sei=uI9_UfnRGYSPkAWCy4EY] to better understand that an Mr. Kamitani has really strong grasp of his fundamentals. He doesn't draw in his trademark exaggerated style because he can't draw a realistic human figure, he draws in his trademark exaggerated style because a realistic human figure isn't a difficult enough proposition for an artist as talented as he is.

The schizophrenic sorts who rail against the prevalence of realism in video games, but then turn around and insist that women be portrayed as 'realistically as possible' are especially amusing.

 

[sXeth]

The flame war over Dragon's Crown confused me a bit at first; sure, the women were ridiculously proportioned, but so were the men. I figured that was what they were going for. Super-stylized, over-the-top, beyond the pale to a point where it barely mattered to the gender discussion because it was too extreme to be compared

Then a few days ago, I took a step back & I saw what Jim saw: Insult, gay joke, trolling on all sides.

Yeah, I've only heard of the game when the first article went up here, but it included images of all the characters, and the styles pretty coherent in its treatment of everyone, guy or girl, having their super-exaggerated almost satirical take on Boris Vallejo style fantasy art. And the elf and the wizard being normal looking decent models for whatever reason. While you could discuss the silly portrayal on both sides (which is exaggerated to the extent of it being like discussing the Expendables for having a 80s action movie plot as if it were a serious oscar-contending drama piece), it seems like the first guy tried to sneak in a fast joke without context, and the designer responded in equal fashion right back.

 

[axlryder]

I'm honestly more pissed about people insulting the artwork for being "bad" because it's "juvenille" than the sexism thing. I'm Not saying art isn't open to criticism, but the criticism I've seen of the sorceress is fucking dumb. "Ohhh, it looks like it was designed by a 14 y/o, thus shit". fuck you. There's so much more fucking finesse put into that design than what you could probably even realize even if you weren't looking at it through a lens of bias because you apparently think indulging a specific aesthetic preference makes you a man-child. Just say you find the big tits unappealing or the provocative design sexist. I'm not saying I'd be totally on board with what you'd be saying then, but at least it doesn't come off like an ignorant pot-shot. At least then you're not insulting artwork that you're clearly not even properly assessing from a stylistic or design standpoint.

I'm surprised how riled up I got about that.

There are no shortage of ignorant people lining up to wipe their shit encrusted fingers all over the work done by very, very talented artists like George Kamitani who specialise in exaggerating the human form for effect. You only need to compare a selection [https://www.google.com.au/search?q=George%20Kamitani&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=hI9_UaOkJ8yWiQfu4IHQCA&biw=1280&bih=864&sei=h49_Ue2YJYK8kAXhnoCgBQ] of Mr. Kamitani's work against the monkey scribblings of an idiot like Rob Liefeld [https://www.google.com.au/search?q=rob%20liefeld&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=tY9_UZT4G7GwiQe-3YDYCw&biw=1280&bih=864&sei=uI9_UfnRGYSPkAWCy4EY] to better understand that an Mr. Kamitani has really strong grasp of his fundamentals. He doesn't draw in his trademark exaggerated style because he can't draw a realistic human figure, he draws in his trademark exaggerated style because a realistic human figure isn't a difficult enough proposition for an artist as talented as he is.

The schizophrenic sorts who rail against the prevalence of realism in video games, but then turn around and insist that women be portrayed as 'realistically as possible' are especially amusing.

Absolutely agree. He is easily one of the most talented people working in the industry today and we have people lambasting his work simply for using exaggerated assets in an exaggerated design. Fuck the skillful use of draped fabric contrasted against the smooth texture of her thigh. Fuck the clever use of minimal details in places. Fuck the awesome shoes. Big tits thus bad. Thanks for validating my rage a bit lol.