Jimquisition: Boob Wars and Dragon Crowns

[grumpymooselion]

Personally?

I want everything.

The more realistic clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

The conservatively clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

The skimpy clothing, armor and sexy character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.


The weird clothing, armor and exaggerated character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

The darker/gothic clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

The western stylized clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

The eastern stylized clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

The older 70s/80s/90s/etc anime style clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

The newer moe anime style clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

The old and new Disney style clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.

The middleground, in all its variance and variety of clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

Everything listed here, and everything and anything NOT listed her in reference to any brand of visual style in regard to games, movies and television - even animation - YES YES YES.
Male and Female? YES.

I want it all. I want variety. I don't want just one thing. I WANT EVERYTHING. I want the industry flooded with a variety of styles, and no, "WE HAVE TO DO THIS TO BE POPULAR!" or, "WE HAVE TO DO THIS TO BE RESPECTFUL" or any other, "WE HAVE TO DO THIS BECAUSE ______" line of reasoning. I want it all. I want variety. I crave it. I have different moods, and different styles help me find something more fitting to my mood, not just visual style either.

More variety is better. Less variety is bad. I wouldn't kick out the Dragon's Crown designs anymore than I'd kick out Beyond Good & Evil's designs or Dark Souls' Designs or Bioshock Infinite's designs or Heavy Rain's designs or Ni No Kuni's Designs or Atelier Totori's Designs or Quest for Glory's designs or Monkey Island's designs or Telltale's The Walking Dead's designs or Resonance of Fate's designs or Half Life 2's designs or TES V: Skyrim's designs or World of Warcraft's designs or any design you could randomly come up with. It all deserves to exist. Something for everyone, and more, no one left out no matter which extreme you're talking about, or if you're just talking about something in the middle of or beyond said extremes.

 

[Fappy]

As you alluded to with your mention of console wars; I am not so sure the gaming community is mature enough to have this discussion. The few civil discussions regarding this issue I have participated in/witnessed are far outweighed by the magnitude of vitriol this community's capable of producing. It's quite sad, really.

 

[Vegosiux]

Jim, allow me to try and one-up you here.

"Why, let's just go back to stick figure characters. I'll be taking bets on how many people find something to get offended by even then."

 

[GamemasterAnthony]

I have to admit...it is really a shame that people won't discuss things more rather that fling insults at people who disagree with them. I could bring up parallels with the way religious groups talk about the rights of the GLBT communities...but that seems a bit redundant.

It's good that those two guys didn't finally talk. Personally, I hope that serves as an example for the rest of the gaming community to follow...but that's probably just hopeless optimism on my part.

CAPTCHA: hot-blooded

All too true there, Captcha.

 

[norashepard]

The only thing about this whole issue that really gets me is that the two sides are represented by men. Women have very little acknowledged presence in the discussion. Sure we're here on the forums talking about it, but at it's base, this is an argument by two men about what they think women should be shown as.

Same with the gender representation arguments in general. There are very few female figureheads in this discussion, which just reeks to me. Most developers are headed by men, most publishers as well. Most of the well known journalists are male. And they're the ones who are talking about women and their representation. Male allies are good, and I appreciate what they do, but when they lead a charge that should be a woman's, it just seems a bit hypocritical.

 

[Zeles]

The second point I don't think is even worth responding to normally, as I view it as the exact same argument as claiming violent media causes real life violence.

Snip

I understand what you mean, but I was getting at the idea that seeing a women as being sexy in a game, will make guys start thinking real women should be like that too. That seeing a fictional sexualised woman will actually change the way a guy thinks about real women.

Ahhhh. Okay. Yeah, I don't think that's a reasonable thing, that it could change the way men think about women.

 

[emeraldrafael]

...

Its not right in anyway

Is that what he said? Because that IS dumb.

However, I would point out that there's a difference between the two in terms of whether or not it's sexism, as the power fantasy of the majority for the majority is being compared to depictions of the minority also for the majority.

That doesn't make it okay, but it does change the nature of it.

...

Yeah, he said and this is cut out but i dont think it necessarily lost context poeple dont already know:


So, no, I don't want to look at this game in a vacuum, or laugh off the sorceress as harmless sexual exaggeration, or accept that this is just Vanillaware's style (which is typically gorgeous). Not when so many women still feel so uncomfortable playing games, or working in the video game industry, or attending gaming events. Not when so many games seem designed for men and only men.

Some have pointed out that the dwarf character?a shirtless warrior with disproportionate muscles?is just as sexualized and over-exaggerated as the sorceress. That's true. He's also straight out of a straight male power fantasy, tailored for men just like the sorceress's skimpy clothing and ridiculously jiggly breasts. The design comes across as juvenile, like a hackneyed comic book or a God of War game.

But the dwarf isn't making many people uncomfortable, because men don't get sexually harassed at PAX East. Because male designers don't get mistaken for receptionists. Because male reporters are never asked if they really play video games.

Because the sorceress is symbolic of a much bigger problem.


maybe I misread, but to me it sounds like he's dismissing it just because men are the majority and so its not an issue if male characters appeal to the power fantasy. Just, I think personally, if youre going to say that, you shouldnt complain about the sorceress and say its making people uncomfortable. Men wont complain because then someone inevitably will say "well what are you, gay?" i dont find anyhting wrong iwth the dwarf here, just as I dont with the sorceress. and even though its anecdotal one f the girl firends i have said more or less the same, that is the style of the game and the sorceress doesnt feel out of place. But I dont feel that i dont think the big burly ass dwarf is (or at least should be) the male fantassy anymore. not when we have guys who are just normal ish dudes and not walking meat sacks (and arent FF style androgynous preteen types).

 

[templar1138a]

Yeah. As soon as I heard about the Sorceress, I said, "I am NOT going to look at any of those articles/forums. Because it's just going to be a shitstorm with nothing productive."

Though I'm definitely with you on the elf. Sexy without being sexualized. Another example is FemShep from the Mass Effect 3 box cover.

 

[Legion]

The second point I don't think is even worth responding to normally, as I view it as the exact same argument as claiming violent media causes real life violence.

Snip

I understand what you mean, but I was getting at the idea that seeing a women as being sexy in a game, will make guys start thinking real women should be like that too. That seeing a fictional sexualised woman will actually change the way a guy thinks about real women.

Ahhhh. Okay. Yeah, I don't think that's a reasonable thing, that it could change the way men think about women.

You do bring up an excellent point though. Not so much in gaming, but in a lot of media, they do try and push an "ideal" that we should all apparently strive for.

Men should all look like Calvin Klein models, who are a little bit rough around the edges, a bit of a bad boy, but also gentle, kind, caring and rich. Women should all be supermodels who are perfect in the bedroom and the kitchen as well as having two degrees, a high paying job and being a fantastic mother.

I actually consider television, books and magazines to be a lot more damaging to the perception of the sexes than games do, as games are very rarely trying to emulate reality, whereas other forms of media often do.

That's really why I get tired of people complaining about games. To me they are harmless because they are so unbelievable.

That's not to say that there aren't a ridiculously large amount of overly sexualised women, but as this person said:

*snip*

there should be a bit of everything. Sexy characters are fine, but non-sexy characters should also be a lot more common. Developers should be trying to appeal to all sorts, rather than relying on the same tired clichés and stereoptypes.

My issue comes with people suggesting that the ones they dislike are a "problem" and shouldn't be there at all. I can agree that it is a problem that there aren't enough alternatives, but not that they exist in the first place.

If somebody looks at a game such as SkullGirls and says "Urgh, why aren't there more fighting games without sexualised women around?!" I'd nod and agree, because there really aren't enough. But when they try and claim it's "misogynistic" and "sexist", I start to get pissed off.

 

[snekadid]

I can't really respond to the video because its been a hour and its only half loaded......

I don't understand the uproar, someone at kotaku called someone immature in a very immature way and was responded to in a equally immature way. What makes this less important is it's kotaku which is the journalistic equivalent of youtube comments. This is not something for people to be getting bothered over.

I feel that the internet has made arguments/discussions(neither are intrinsically negative things) impossible as it opens it up to so many people at once. Where as a normal back and forth between a limited number of people has a decent chance of staying on topic, the internet puts so many people into the debate that the chances of everyone keeping their ego in check and not either taking something about the topic personally or attacking someone else personally about it is as close to zero as things get.

It is in this light that having discussions about this in open forums on the internet is pointless. If you want to talk about these subjects, then have a private conversation with someone on the other side and use debate rules. Once someone starts attacking the other person rather than the subject at hand, end the conversation as no more progress will be made. Because whats going on now does nothing but raise ire and prevent any real progress being made one way or the other.

 

[TwiZtah]

And no man looks like the barbarian either, not without 3 steroid shots per day at least. Stop taking everything so fucking seriously.

 

[Sheo_Dagana]

While I am perpetually annoyed by the designs of female characters in any media (not just video games), it's not likely a problem we'll see the end of in our lifetime. I remember playing the original Metroid and how everyone made a huge fuss over beating the game fast enough to see Samus in a bikini. A lot of people have said that, until Other M, Samus is one of the least sexualized female protagonists out there, but this is not true [http://www.gamesradar.com/a-brief-history-of-samus-in-her-underwear/]. Now granted that all that skimp was available only after finishing the game, but that fact that people were trying to beat record times in order to be rewarded with it kind of makes it seem a little worse. Just to me.

I can only imagine how women feel when they see things like this in video games, considering that female gamers make up a large portion of the consumer pool, but I can kind of understand it. My roommate (a woman) will see incredibly hunky, muscular, perfect men on TV or games and say things like "goddamn - that is a MAN right there" and I'll get slightly uncomfortable about my appearance, being as how I'm quite average looking. It's only a passing thought for me, I can imagine that for women, it's much more than that.

I'm all for gender equality and I think most of us at this point are. I suppose it's just up to the people who design these characters to figure that out already.

 

[Hagi]

I want it all. I want variety. I don't want just one thing. I WANT EVERYTHING. I want the industry flooded with a variety of styles, and no, "WE HAVE TO DO THIS TO BE POPULAR!" or, "WE HAVE TO DO THIS TO BE RESPECTFUL" or any other, "WE HAVE TO DO THIS BECAUSE ______" line of reasoning. I want it all. I want variety. I crave it. I have different moods, and different styles help me find something more fitting to my mood, not just visual style either.

More variety is better. Less variety is bad. I wouldn't kick out the Dragon's Crown designs anymore than I'd kick out Beyond Good & Evil's designs or Dark Souls' Designs or Bioshock Infinite's designs or Heavy Rain's designs or Ni No Kuni's Designs or Atelier Totori's Designs or Quest for Glory's designs or Monkey Island's designs or Telltale's The Walking Dead's designs or Resonance of Fate's designs or Half Life 2's designs or TES V: Skyrim's designs or World of Warcraft's designs or any design you could randomly come up with. It all deserves to exist. Something for everyone, and more, no one left out no matter which extreme you're talking about, or if you're just talking about something in the middle of or beyond said extremes.

This totally sums it up for me.

The problem is not that publishers say yes to character designs like this. That's completely fine.

The problem is that publishers say no to serious and realistic female character designs. That's completely fucked up.

 

[Legion]

I guess I will open a discussion because I am totally ignorant on the subject.

I keep on hearing about how character designs like the Tittymancer in Dragons Crown and other exaggerated designed females are a problem but I have yet to hear why they are a problem. I get a lot of "because sexism" answers but it doesn't answer my question.

Simple.

Because their sexualised depiction is not relevant to the character.

For example, take the depictions of half-naked, muscular men in God of War or 300. Yes, there are people who are titillated by such imagery, but the fact of the matter is that IT MAKES SENSE for an ancient warrior to be muscular, since physical strength equals dominance on the battlefield. And it makes some sense for warriors who rely on mobility not to be weighed down with heavy armour. The same could be argued for the Amazon character in this very game.

But it makes exactly zero difference to a spellcaster in a combat game how big her breasts are, and how much of them are clothed. If you had a game in which, playing as a woman, you could seduce men to achieve your goals - hell, if the big-breasted character had a special move which made males stop in their tracks (write this down, Namco, this would be an AWESOME stun-lock taunt move for Ivy) - then by all means, tits ahoy; but in this case, the tits in question define the word "gratuitous".

That's the problem. Nobody is saying that big tits and depictions thereof are ipso facto bad. Christina Hendricks has humongous mammaries, but the show Mad Men portrays her character as a woman with goals, emotions, thoughts etc, to whom physical beauty is both an asset and a liability. In that case, tits are okay. Or the women in the Game of Thrones universe: are they sexual? Hell yes. But they use their sexuality for certain ends (be it gratification, power, revenge etc), which is what beautiful women, alas, do a lot of in real life.

Now, many men are attracted to women with athletic bodies; and in a game like Mirror's Edge, Faith's lithe, flexible body is a sign of her grace, speed, and strength. It makes sense for her to be shaped like an olympic pole vaulter, because vaulting is what she does. The sexiness is a side effect; it does not define her exclusively.

Hope this helps in clearing things up.

Actually many feminists would disagree with you.

A woman such as the sorceress is "sexy" (speech marks because I really don't think she is), but it does not affect her character's ability. She is a powerful fighter, who also happens to be "sexy".

The Game of Thrones example of women who use their sexuality to gain something, is a hell of a lot more sexist as it's suggesting that a woman's sexuality is more important than anything else. That they are not in power because they are smart or strong, but because they use their bodies.

The former example is of a powerful character who happens to be "sexy". The latter is of a woman who relies on being sexy.

If it makes no difference being sexy, then it's not defining them, as their character remains the same regardless. If not being sexy would change the character, then that is saying that being sexy is important for that character. Which is a lot more objectifying.

 

[Terminal Blue]

While overall I think the message in this episode is excellent and when it comes to the so-called "boob wars" I couldn't agree more, I feel that it's somewhat incorrect to assume this controversy is simply another debate about sexualized character design. It started off that way with Jason Schreier's original comment, but that's certainly not why Kamitani got so much shit on social media. The real issue here is that you shouldn't respond to criticism (especially not by journalists whose job is to give opinion on your product) by engaging in casual homophobia.

Now, to be fair, Kamitani's "joke" would probably have been completely acceptable had it only been viewed in Japan, because casual homophobia remains perfectly acceptable in Japan. Even his "apology" makes it perfectly clear that he still doesn't actually understand why the joke was offensive, but it was. It was offensive because it implies a) that if Jason Schreier had been gay this alone would be grounds to laugh at him and b) that the wider opinions of actual gay people aren't actually important and don't have to be considered.

I think most of us can agree that Schreier's original comment was, at best, phrased badly, he's said as much himself. But as he also said, he's a critic of games. He's allowed to pass comment on the art in games, as indeed is anyone. If he doesn't like something, he can give it a public thumbs down because that's his job. Remember when Jim called the developers of Aliens: Colonial Marines liars? Would it have been appropriate for them to respond with "Lol, you just didn't like the game because there wasn't enough butsecks in it for you!"

Deflecting criticism by personally attacking a critic is bad practice. Deflecting criticism by trying to homophobically bully a critic, and by extension insulting every gay person in the world is beyond bad practice, it's crossing the line into stupidville. The hatemail and negative social media attention Kamitani is recieving now is completely deserved, and while an apology (even a vague and insincere apology which makes it clear you have no idea why people are angry with you) is a good start, the damage is largely done now.

 

[uncanny474]

Jim. You, uh, you forgot to link to the articles, Jim. I don't care too much about the flamewar article, but I'd like to read a reasonable explanation, if only because the game itself seems like it may be fun and I don't want to feel bad for playing something that is so heavy on the male power fantasy side of things.

 

[Twinmill5000]

What's truly ironic is that in a similar thread, I put out a rather harsh comment defending the designer's rights to freedom of creation, and how if people are offended, they always have the option to not play the damn game, then proceeding to rip an extra asshole into someone who tried to pick a fight with that comment.

I lied (about the irony thing). What's truly ironic is that I still think that my comments were in the moral high ground, not because of their alleged purpose, but because, all throughout the thread, people were fighting about how the game was oversexualized vs. the lack of empathy for that fact. Why is that ironic? Because, while I think my points and embarrassment of those who directly challenged them were valid (and suuuure felt good), there was little discussion that came out of it. In fact, I was quite an asshole, despite my personal opinion that you need to be an asshole to get through to some people.

So let me change that. Starting now.

I am a feminist. I agree with most of what Anita Sarkeesian has to say, and yearn for more three dimensional female characters. Attractive female characters. Believable ones. That aren't either, oversexualized, or have single dimension personalities. I firmly believe that the best example for this is Human Female Protagonist (Guild Wars 2). That's sad. When the best example is a blank slate character for an MMO. I don't believe Lilith (Borderlands), or even Leona/Vi (LoL) are better examples, even though both are tough, take no crap, and are reliable heroes figures, but they still carry an enigma about them, rather, they're still presented to the gamer on a pedestal as unsociable characters who you should only masturbate to from a distance. Key word is presented.

With that being said... I disagree with the criticism that this game is getting, for the sole fact that yes, it is trying to point out how overdone characters of all types are in certain games today. Yes, I realize that in Sorcerer's case, she's really not too far off from the depressing 'norm' that we have in our mental image facilitating devices when we think of 'female protagonist', but I don't think that detracts from the statement they're trying to make, and I do think that most criticism of this game is missing the entire freaking point, regardless.

As a feminist, boobs don't bother me. The volume of huge, jiggling, unrealistically bouncy boobs... doesn't offend me. The lack of great female protagonists bothers me, and right now, that is changing too. You can have your boobs, you can have your one dimensional damsels in distress and super hardcore punk female leads, hell, I don't care if you want Super Cthulu Harem: Tentacle Rape: The Game.

What would anger me, more than anything, is people who think that I care what you want, and try to inhibit what I want, or at least muddy it, with the notion that creating a strong female protagonists has to include the word 'strong'.

The fact is, as much as I love Leona and Vi from LoL as characters, they feel like they're created so the respective game studio (Riot. Hi. CookiesMorgana here. Don't get mad pls.) can hold them up on a pedestal and go 'yeah, we have characters that defy stereotypes so we're not sexist or influenced by a sexist society'. Regardless of whether or not that was a conscious decision by them or not.

Think about it. Imagine Vi and Leona, toned down just enough to where they were actually characters you could have a conversation with, that seemed like real human beings with more than one or two things on their minds. You probably already can, thanks to LoL's awesome community. From a design perspective, these characters potentially meet that. Where it fails in execution, how the characters act in game. How they're animated. Their voice lines.

And thus, I come to my final point: Making those characters as believable as GW2's Human Female Protagonist would take alot of work. Why? Well, because acting natural without adhering to the sexual norms of the place you're in is difficult. This is what needs to change. We need to stop idolizing women, and we need to stop backlashing at them when we find out they're... women. We need to treat them more like people, not like aliens, because until we then, our bias will show up in character designs everywhere, even those that are supposed to appeal to women. If Leona was designed entirely by IronStylus, she'd be a much more believable character.

Hell, if there were more game companies with the Male/Female staff ratio of ArenaNet, we'd see alot more believable female characters in games.

 

[Kraftmyself]

I've read a lot of comments here and a lot of them have very interesting and well thought out arguments for many different 'sides' in this discussion. However I was hoping to make something clear, what we think about a video game means nothing if there is no discussion with the person/place/company/etc responsible for the discussion in the first place. We can all say what we want and believe what we do but ultimately what can we change? Change comes through an open discussion between the conflicting parties operating under respectful and equal rules of debate. I was so glad to see HokutoAndy's work put into the discussion on Kotaku because it highlights just how many aspects there are to consider in art and that the reasons we think something is present may not always be the truth. It is because of this though that I want to see the artist, if he deems he is comfortable talking about the reasoning behind what is completely his work and his own style, speak with Schereier or more likely someone who can prepare very honest interview questions and be much more open-minded about something they may only believe they understand. THAT is how we see change in this industry, by creating places and sources of understanding that allows this obviously very discerning and unique group of fans to derive their own meaning and understanding from the honest and well-rounded information that is presented to us.

Yay or nay?

EDIT: Oh good, there was a discussion between the artist and Jason.....um..somewhat

 

[Milanezi]

Hmmm he used a lot of game scenes with the Sorceress as the character, and the the SAME scenes (or similar), with the dwarf, I was amazed by both, so I guess I'm genuinely interested in the game...
Now, I'm having a bigger issue, and my issue is with the dwarf, why is he a "dwarf" when he is basically as tall as anybody else, only much more muscular??? lol
Okay, as far as the sorceress go, c'mon fantasy sorceress, when they're all "goth wanna-be" are usually sluts in every sense of the word, not only in game, but in fantasy in general, from the cover art of metal bands to comic books; it's obviously exaggerated in this game, but hey, everybody is. However the Amazon is something... uhhh... I always picture amazons as very fucking muscular and not very feminine even in terms of attitude, I also imagine them either fully naked or deep in body armor, the first style because it would beckon to the idea of the "cult to the body" as in perfect aesthetics of a healthy muscular body (like old Greek and Roman statutes), the last for practical terms of Amazons being warriors thus being fully armored for war, THIS Amazon looks like a body builder (a bad one who didn't distribute the exercises) going to fantasy beach....

 

[shadowmagus]

I am all for more female friendly clothing options. The idea of a scantly clad FemShep is foreign to me.

That said, let's not be human about it and take it all the way into the other extreme By human I mean over-react and not just fix it but make another problem out of it. Call me all the nasty names you want, I believe the Ivy's, Tifa's, and scantly clad elven females of gaming have just as much a place in the hobby as others.

In short, moderation. What a concept.