Jimquisition: Boob Wars and Dragon Crowns

[Canadamus Prime]

That's the thing I hate about the Internet and social media. Nobody can seem to rein in their inner asshole. ...not even me.

And for the record I find those character designs very unappealing.

You seem like a charming and warm individual....Most of the time...>.>

I find the art bad to begin with. Like, I like the fact that it's sprite animation, because I'm now in my 30s and grew up on a lot of hand-drawn stuff and lived through the period where 3D models were all "AHHHHH! KILL IT WITH FIRE!" bad, but the actual styles are ugly. And to be fair, a lot of the stuff I grew up liking looks bad now, too.

I remember when these were pretty good visuals. But still, there's plenty out there to indicate we can be faithful to the style without necessarily indulging in the flaws (by this, I mean being ugly more than BEWWWWWBS!)

Thanks. I do try to rein in the inner asshole, but I don't always succeed.

 

[Elyxard]

I do totally understand what the artist is going for, but even with the excessive, grotesque style, the Sorceress is still plainly gratuitous and distracting. Her breasts turning into helicopter rotors anytime she even moves is just.. unpleasant to look at. I wouldn't necessarily call it a sexism issue, just an unfortunate artistic decision.

I don't even mind the Amazon because her levels of excessiveness fit alongside the rest of the crew in some way (though her tiny, anime head kinda clashes with that design). The sorceress just goes a step too far I feel.

 

[Legion]

The second point I don't think is even worth responding to normally, as I view it as the exact same argument as claiming violent media causes real life violence.

I disagree here, but the rest of your post was great.
I'm female, and when I was younger I used to have body image problems. Those really got better when I started reading Escher Girls, and I've seen a few posts on there that tell similar stories to mine.

See, I have a thick build. I get it from my dad. As a result of my natural build, I've had to struggle with my weight for a long time now, always seeming to border on the edge of Overweight, and this problem has not been helped by my reluctance to exercise.

When I was younger I would get really really upset whenever I thought about my body. I felt that my legs were too chubby, I was fat, stuff like that. All around me were movies and games and books where all the women were really really skinny. And I thought that everyone else was too, compared to me. I think that if I saw a female in a movie that had a thick build like mine... It wouldn't have really helped. Because I wouldn't have liked them. Because I would have thought that the other ones were much prettier.

I'm much better now, and fortunately I never went to any real extremes to fix any of my perceived physical flaws.

But this kind of stuff does effect people.

I understand what you mean, but I was getting at the idea that seeing a women as being sexy in a game, will make guys start thinking real women should be like that too. That seeing a fictional sexualised woman will actually change the way a guy thinks about real women.

Your personal example is a case of you seeing a fictional example of a woman, and feeling inadequate in response (I apologise if that was worded horribly, I am unsure of how else to describe it). Like seeing somebody with perfect hair and thinking "Why can't mine be like that!" rather than having an idea of how people "should" look, then seeing a piece of fiction and having it change your perception.

To use an example of a depiction of a woman in television, let's look at Marge Simpson. She is a housewife who pretty much keeps her family running. She cooks, cleans, looks after the kids, gets them out of trouble and so on. I sincerely doubt any men watch The Simpsons and think "that's how real women should behave", not unless that's their attitude anyway, in which case, it isn't affecting their perception, but potentially reinforcing what they already think.

I'd also like to mention that the examples you are using are real women, who actually resemble reality. Most women in games are not supposed to be believable. I go into this more after the quotation.

The second point I don't think is even worth responding to normally, as I view it as the exact same argument as claiming violent media causes real life violence.

It isn't really though. The violent thing is about actions regardless of context. The only portraying women as sex objects/as gendered stereotypes thing is about themes and ideas in a cultural context and story context. Not really comparable. :\

How many games provide a realistic enough example of sexualised women to compare to real life? Or to put it another way, how many sexualised female characters look believable? Most women who are sexualised are more or less caricatures, they are so over the top that they are not comparable to real women. I can't see any guys looking at the Sorceress and associating her with real women.

Violent media on the other hand frequently tries to portray real life, or believable situations. Grand Theft Auto is in many regards a murder simulator. You can do countless things that you could do in real life, many of them horrible.

Violent media, unless it is sci-fi or fantasy often tries to recreate things that are actually plausible, even if they are incredibly unlikely. Sexualisation of characters on the other hand is almost entirely over the top to the point that it barely resembles reality.

I apologise if that was worded badly as well, it can be hard to articulate what I mean when it comes to abstract concepts.

 

[Andy Shandy]

Couldn't agree more with this episode. The reason I've become so apathetic with the whole "Sexism in games" debate that has been kicking around for a while now, is that it's the same people flinging the exact same shit at each other, each and every time.

The only thing even close to a reasonable discussion I've seen around here was the Sexism CommuniCast that a few of the users took part in. However, the problem with that was that, due to a couple of members not able to make it, it was (for the most part) just everyone agreeing with each other.

 

[grumpymooselion]

Personally?

I want everything.

The more realistic clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

The conservatively clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

The skimpy clothing, armor and sexy character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.


The weird clothing, armor and exaggerated character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

The darker/gothic clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

The western stylized clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

The eastern stylized clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

The older 70s/80s/90s/etc anime style clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

The newer moe anime style clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

The old and new Disney style clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.

The middleground, in all its variance and variety of clothing, armor and character designs? Yes.
Male and Female? Yes.

Everything listed here, and everything and anything NOT listed her in reference to any brand of visual style in regard to games, movies and television - even animation - YES YES YES.
Male and Female? YES.

I want it all. I want variety. I don't want just one thing. I WANT EVERYTHING. I want the industry flooded with a variety of styles, and no, "WE HAVE TO DO THIS TO BE POPULAR!" or, "WE HAVE TO DO THIS TO BE RESPECTFUL" or any other, "WE HAVE TO DO THIS BECAUSE ______" line of reasoning. I want it all. I want variety. I crave it. I have different moods, and different styles help me find something more fitting to my mood, not just visual style either.

More variety is better. Less variety is bad. I wouldn't kick out the Dragon's Crown designs anymore than I'd kick out Beyond Good & Evil's designs or Dark Souls' Designs or Bioshock Infinite's designs or Heavy Rain's designs or Ni No Kuni's Designs or Atelier Totori's Designs or Quest for Glory's designs or Monkey Island's designs or Telltale's The Walking Dead's designs or Resonance of Fate's designs or Half Life 2's designs or TES V: Skyrim's designs or World of Warcraft's designs or any design you could randomly come up with. It all deserves to exist. Something for everyone, and more, no one left out no matter which extreme you're talking about, or if you're just talking about something in the middle of or beyond said extremes.

 

[Fappy]

As you alluded to with your mention of console wars; I am not so sure the gaming community is mature enough to have this discussion. The few civil discussions regarding this issue I have participated in/witnessed are far outweighed by the magnitude of vitriol this community's capable of producing. It's quite sad, really.

 

[Vegosiux]

Jim, allow me to try and one-up you here.

"Why, let's just go back to stick figure characters. I'll be taking bets on how many people find something to get offended by even then."

 

[GamemasterAnthony]

I have to admit...it is really a shame that people won't discuss things more rather that fling insults at people who disagree with them. I could bring up parallels with the way religious groups talk about the rights of the GLBT communities...but that seems a bit redundant.

It's good that those two guys didn't finally talk. Personally, I hope that serves as an example for the rest of the gaming community to follow...but that's probably just hopeless optimism on my part.

CAPTCHA: hot-blooded

All too true there, Captcha.

 

[norashepard]

The only thing about this whole issue that really gets me is that the two sides are represented by men. Women have very little acknowledged presence in the discussion. Sure we're here on the forums talking about it, but at it's base, this is an argument by two men about what they think women should be shown as.

Same with the gender representation arguments in general. There are very few female figureheads in this discussion, which just reeks to me. Most developers are headed by men, most publishers as well. Most of the well known journalists are male. And they're the ones who are talking about women and their representation. Male allies are good, and I appreciate what they do, but when they lead a charge that should be a woman's, it just seems a bit hypocritical.

 

[Zeles]

The second point I don't think is even worth responding to normally, as I view it as the exact same argument as claiming violent media causes real life violence.

Snip

I understand what you mean, but I was getting at the idea that seeing a women as being sexy in a game, will make guys start thinking real women should be like that too. That seeing a fictional sexualised woman will actually change the way a guy thinks about real women.

Ahhhh. Okay. Yeah, I don't think that's a reasonable thing, that it could change the way men think about women.

 

[emeraldrafael]

...

Its not right in anyway

Is that what he said? Because that IS dumb.

However, I would point out that there's a difference between the two in terms of whether or not it's sexism, as the power fantasy of the majority for the majority is being compared to depictions of the minority also for the majority.

That doesn't make it okay, but it does change the nature of it.

...

Yeah, he said and this is cut out but i dont think it necessarily lost context poeple dont already know:


So, no, I don't want to look at this game in a vacuum, or laugh off the sorceress as harmless sexual exaggeration, or accept that this is just Vanillaware's style (which is typically gorgeous). Not when so many women still feel so uncomfortable playing games, or working in the video game industry, or attending gaming events. Not when so many games seem designed for men and only men.

Some have pointed out that the dwarf character?a shirtless warrior with disproportionate muscles?is just as sexualized and over-exaggerated as the sorceress. That's true. He's also straight out of a straight male power fantasy, tailored for men just like the sorceress's skimpy clothing and ridiculously jiggly breasts. The design comes across as juvenile, like a hackneyed comic book or a God of War game.

But the dwarf isn't making many people uncomfortable, because men don't get sexually harassed at PAX East. Because male designers don't get mistaken for receptionists. Because male reporters are never asked if they really play video games.

Because the sorceress is symbolic of a much bigger problem.


maybe I misread, but to me it sounds like he's dismissing it just because men are the majority and so its not an issue if male characters appeal to the power fantasy. Just, I think personally, if youre going to say that, you shouldnt complain about the sorceress and say its making people uncomfortable. Men wont complain because then someone inevitably will say "well what are you, gay?" i dont find anyhting wrong iwth the dwarf here, just as I dont with the sorceress. and even though its anecdotal one f the girl firends i have said more or less the same, that is the style of the game and the sorceress doesnt feel out of place. But I dont feel that i dont think the big burly ass dwarf is (or at least should be) the male fantassy anymore. not when we have guys who are just normal ish dudes and not walking meat sacks (and arent FF style androgynous preteen types).

 

[templar1138a]

Yeah. As soon as I heard about the Sorceress, I said, "I am NOT going to look at any of those articles/forums. Because it's just going to be a shitstorm with nothing productive."

Though I'm definitely with you on the elf. Sexy without being sexualized. Another example is FemShep from the Mass Effect 3 box cover.

 

[Legion]

The second point I don't think is even worth responding to normally, as I view it as the exact same argument as claiming violent media causes real life violence.

Snip

I understand what you mean, but I was getting at the idea that seeing a women as being sexy in a game, will make guys start thinking real women should be like that too. That seeing a fictional sexualised woman will actually change the way a guy thinks about real women.

Ahhhh. Okay. Yeah, I don't think that's a reasonable thing, that it could change the way men think about women.

You do bring up an excellent point though. Not so much in gaming, but in a lot of media, they do try and push an "ideal" that we should all apparently strive for.

Men should all look like Calvin Klein models, who are a little bit rough around the edges, a bit of a bad boy, but also gentle, kind, caring and rich. Women should all be supermodels who are perfect in the bedroom and the kitchen as well as having two degrees, a high paying job and being a fantastic mother.

I actually consider television, books and magazines to be a lot more damaging to the perception of the sexes than games do, as games are very rarely trying to emulate reality, whereas other forms of media often do.

That's really why I get tired of people complaining about games. To me they are harmless because they are so unbelievable.

That's not to say that there aren't a ridiculously large amount of overly sexualised women, but as this person said:

*snip*

there should be a bit of everything. Sexy characters are fine, but non-sexy characters should also be a lot more common. Developers should be trying to appeal to all sorts, rather than relying on the same tired clichés and stereoptypes.

My issue comes with people suggesting that the ones they dislike are a "problem" and shouldn't be there at all. I can agree that it is a problem that there aren't enough alternatives, but not that they exist in the first place.

If somebody looks at a game such as SkullGirls and says "Urgh, why aren't there more fighting games without sexualised women around?!" I'd nod and agree, because there really aren't enough. But when they try and claim it's "misogynistic" and "sexist", I start to get pissed off.

 

[snekadid]

I can't really respond to the video because its been a hour and its only half loaded......

I don't understand the uproar, someone at kotaku called someone immature in a very immature way and was responded to in a equally immature way. What makes this less important is it's kotaku which is the journalistic equivalent of youtube comments. This is not something for people to be getting bothered over.

I feel that the internet has made arguments/discussions(neither are intrinsically negative things) impossible as it opens it up to so many people at once. Where as a normal back and forth between a limited number of people has a decent chance of staying on topic, the internet puts so many people into the debate that the chances of everyone keeping their ego in check and not either taking something about the topic personally or attacking someone else personally about it is as close to zero as things get.

It is in this light that having discussions about this in open forums on the internet is pointless. If you want to talk about these subjects, then have a private conversation with someone on the other side and use debate rules. Once someone starts attacking the other person rather than the subject at hand, end the conversation as no more progress will be made. Because whats going on now does nothing but raise ire and prevent any real progress being made one way or the other.

 

[TwiZtah]

And no man looks like the barbarian either, not without 3 steroid shots per day at least. Stop taking everything so fucking seriously.

 

[Sheo_Dagana]

While I am perpetually annoyed by the designs of female characters in any media (not just video games), it's not likely a problem we'll see the end of in our lifetime. I remember playing the original Metroid and how everyone made a huge fuss over beating the game fast enough to see Samus in a bikini. A lot of people have said that, until Other M, Samus is one of the least sexualized female protagonists out there, but this is not true [http://www.gamesradar.com/a-brief-history-of-samus-in-her-underwear/]. Now granted that all that skimp was available only after finishing the game, but that fact that people were trying to beat record times in order to be rewarded with it kind of makes it seem a little worse. Just to me.

I can only imagine how women feel when they see things like this in video games, considering that female gamers make up a large portion of the consumer pool, but I can kind of understand it. My roommate (a woman) will see incredibly hunky, muscular, perfect men on TV or games and say things like "goddamn - that is a MAN right there" and I'll get slightly uncomfortable about my appearance, being as how I'm quite average looking. It's only a passing thought for me, I can imagine that for women, it's much more than that.

I'm all for gender equality and I think most of us at this point are. I suppose it's just up to the people who design these characters to figure that out already.

 

[Hagi]

I want it all. I want variety. I don't want just one thing. I WANT EVERYTHING. I want the industry flooded with a variety of styles, and no, "WE HAVE TO DO THIS TO BE POPULAR!" or, "WE HAVE TO DO THIS TO BE RESPECTFUL" or any other, "WE HAVE TO DO THIS BECAUSE ______" line of reasoning. I want it all. I want variety. I crave it. I have different moods, and different styles help me find something more fitting to my mood, not just visual style either.

More variety is better. Less variety is bad. I wouldn't kick out the Dragon's Crown designs anymore than I'd kick out Beyond Good & Evil's designs or Dark Souls' Designs or Bioshock Infinite's designs or Heavy Rain's designs or Ni No Kuni's Designs or Atelier Totori's Designs or Quest for Glory's designs or Monkey Island's designs or Telltale's The Walking Dead's designs or Resonance of Fate's designs or Half Life 2's designs or TES V: Skyrim's designs or World of Warcraft's designs or any design you could randomly come up with. It all deserves to exist. Something for everyone, and more, no one left out no matter which extreme you're talking about, or if you're just talking about something in the middle of or beyond said extremes.

This totally sums it up for me.

The problem is not that publishers say yes to character designs like this. That's completely fine.

The problem is that publishers say no to serious and realistic female character designs. That's completely fucked up.

 

[Legion]

I guess I will open a discussion because I am totally ignorant on the subject.

I keep on hearing about how character designs like the Tittymancer in Dragons Crown and other exaggerated designed females are a problem but I have yet to hear why they are a problem. I get a lot of "because sexism" answers but it doesn't answer my question.

Simple.

Because their sexualised depiction is not relevant to the character.

For example, take the depictions of half-naked, muscular men in God of War or 300. Yes, there are people who are titillated by such imagery, but the fact of the matter is that IT MAKES SENSE for an ancient warrior to be muscular, since physical strength equals dominance on the battlefield. And it makes some sense for warriors who rely on mobility not to be weighed down with heavy armour. The same could be argued for the Amazon character in this very game.

But it makes exactly zero difference to a spellcaster in a combat game how big her breasts are, and how much of them are clothed. If you had a game in which, playing as a woman, you could seduce men to achieve your goals - hell, if the big-breasted character had a special move which made males stop in their tracks (write this down, Namco, this would be an AWESOME stun-lock taunt move for Ivy) - then by all means, tits ahoy; but in this case, the tits in question define the word "gratuitous".

That's the problem. Nobody is saying that big tits and depictions thereof are ipso facto bad. Christina Hendricks has humongous mammaries, but the show Mad Men portrays her character as a woman with goals, emotions, thoughts etc, to whom physical beauty is both an asset and a liability. In that case, tits are okay. Or the women in the Game of Thrones universe: are they sexual? Hell yes. But they use their sexuality for certain ends (be it gratification, power, revenge etc), which is what beautiful women, alas, do a lot of in real life.

Now, many men are attracted to women with athletic bodies; and in a game like Mirror's Edge, Faith's lithe, flexible body is a sign of her grace, speed, and strength. It makes sense for her to be shaped like an olympic pole vaulter, because vaulting is what she does. The sexiness is a side effect; it does not define her exclusively.

Hope this helps in clearing things up.

Actually many feminists would disagree with you.

A woman such as the sorceress is "sexy" (speech marks because I really don't think she is), but it does not affect her character's ability. She is a powerful fighter, who also happens to be "sexy".

The Game of Thrones example of women who use their sexuality to gain something, is a hell of a lot more sexist as it's suggesting that a woman's sexuality is more important than anything else. That they are not in power because they are smart or strong, but because they use their bodies.

The former example is of a powerful character who happens to be "sexy". The latter is of a woman who relies on being sexy.

If it makes no difference being sexy, then it's not defining them, as their character remains the same regardless. If not being sexy would change the character, then that is saying that being sexy is important for that character. Which is a lot more objectifying.