Jimquisition: Booth Babes

[spiffleh]

Unrelated to booth babes or most of the video itself: I have boobs. I think they are great. And if someone wants to put jiggle physics into a game, I don't really have a problem with that. But but the love of god, Dead or Alive people.... BOOBS DON'T WORK THAT WAY.

 

[chronobreak]

I don't see the fact that this is some women's jobs as a big enough reason to keep booth babes around. Thing is, lots of jobs and the fields those jobs are in don't last forever. Being that it is such a niche career choice forthers the point it cannot be expected to last forever in any grand scale.

Really, the decision should lie solely with the people running the event as to what kind of atmosphere they want to put forth at their show.

 

[Mr F.]

Brilliant!

You take the argument out of context, add a bit of hyperbole and then add a tiny bit of Islamophobia just to make sure you sound like a calm rational human being!

That said...

Why exactly would removing eye candy from all of the above be bad? What does scantily clad woman have to do with UFC? What does it have to do with cars? Seriously?

Absolutely fucking nothing. The entire point is to pander to the majority male audience that watches UFC, attends car shows and turns up at Conventions. Whilst the argument saying "What would these poor women do without these jobs" is logical, I still think that the loss of the entire industry (As in, exploitative modelling industry) would not be a particularly bad thing.

I mean, when slavery was being abolished did anybody say "Oh, think of the poor slave traders and slave takers, what will they do to stay employed now!". Nope. We accepted that the entire industry was rather bad so we killed it.

And you accuse OTHERS of being hyperbolic? While comparing modelling gigs at conventions to bleedin' SLAVERY?

Right. Because the young woman getting paid a very nice salary to do a piss-easy job is the same as a slave. Absolutely. Let's arbitrarily decide that making money off the fact that men like looking at attractive women (by the way, the opposite is also true) is "exploitation" and close off career opportunities for women whose main marketable feature is their looks. I'm a graduate TA at a university; why is me getting paid a pittance for my intelligence (genetic trait) and erudition (acquired through hard work) ethically superior or less arbitrary than a woman getting paid SIGNIFICANTLY more money for her pretty face (good genes) and great measurements (usually the result of hard work)? Why is it that every time a woman turns her good looks into money, somebody's always screaming "exploitation"?

Right now, there is a commercial on the telly with Heidi Klum in a negligée selling candy gums or something. Poor slave woman, with her net worth of $80 million.

I was making no attempt to liken the two, merely pointing out that moral judgments have changed. No, I do not think that slavery and being a booth babe are similar in anything bar the whole "As time is passing this is beginning to be frowned upon" and I treat the argument of "What else will they do" to be the same as an argument defending the slave trade under that logic.

"What else will those poor traders do".

I think (And a few others, I guess) that Booth Babes, and any other form of exploitative industry, are not good. I think that as time passes they will eventually die down, at least, from mainstream events (Such as car shows, UFC bouts and game/tech shows) because they serve no purpose in those places. I do not remain convinced by the "Empowerment" argument (Yes, you will find people who like doing it as a job, people usually point to "Happy" prostitutes or "Happy" stippers, a lot (If not most) of those working in the sex trade, or associated trades, are far from happy).

So, like I said, I was using slavery as an example of changing moral values and an industry dying as a result. I think the Booth Babe industry (And the whole "Sex sells") industry is slowly going to die off and I will feel nothing but happiness at its passing.

So please, in future, read my post. You attacked one simple point, caused by a misunderstanding and nothing more, before going off on one about how you are an underpaid TA and how mean it is that in the big bad world you get paid more than a glorified stripper. Did you even read my slavery point? At all? Really? Or did you just see the word and go a little bit mental?

But you know what? I am going to bail out of this thread now. Sometimes it is worth having an argument (Sorry, "Debate") online and occasionally you can change peoples minds. But here? Well, it is too clear cut. Those of us who think that it is exploitative and has no place in the industry want it to go, those of us who think... Whatever it is you lot think, want it to stay.

Oh, and you think that if we abolish Booth Babes we will end up living in a society where the Abiya is normal attire and the world has collapsed at the seams. Cause that is rational.

EDIT: Sorry, I thought you were the original guy I quoted because of his Islamophobic comment.

But I have read up on a few things you have said...

You are aware that MOSTLY we are agreed, right? Cause the example you gave of your friend (Or was it fiances friend? I cba reading up) who liked being a booth babe cause she is a gamer, well, none of us are arguing against that kind of crap. I even made a defence of cosplay and whatnot.

I am just wholly against women being paid to stand around wearing almost nothing, purely to be fucking eye candy. If they have a skill they are bringing, and they are not eye candy, then it is a totally different argument. As for anything else? Go re-read my original post and when you come up with a real argument against what I have said, get back to me.

 

[Shiro No Uma]

I say ban them.

And what about the jobs? - How about getting a real one?!

This comment is actually way more sexist than the skimpiest booth babe outfit could ever be.

Because I have no respect nor sympathy for someone being paid for staying around? - So be it.

I very interested, are you joking about getting a real job? If not, could you tell what a real job is?

Construction site worker.

I very curious because as it happens I've worked many of these kinds of shows and I have to tell you, they are REAL PEOPLE who need REAL MONEY.

Everyone needs money that does not mean you deserve it.

Wow. So do you decide who deserves money? And how many construction sites and jobs are there in your area in a give day? Do you have to be a union worker to get these jobs? Also, do you have to be able to lift over 50lbs, because if so that limits how many real jobs are available for many people including people with disabilities. It also sounds like you might not have ever worked at one of these events. Do you know what goes into them for the actors, models and performs in a general 5 day event? Because if someone asked me to do performance advertising for a 12 hour+ day without making a dime, as you suggest that you don't deserve getting payed, that's a bad business model for anyone. If your argument is that models, actors and performers are not a productive part of this society then why are you on a gaming website complaining as all of these people contribute to the creation of video games, of which I'm assuming you enjoy.

 

[Shiro No Uma]

'You can't win when you do this kind of thing'

Agreed. People have spun sexism so much that someone will be upset no matter what.

My (perhaps conservative) take is that asking people to cover up isn't a huge deal. You want to wear a buffalo hide thong, do it out in public, not in a decidedly weighted environment (this goes for both genders, naturally).

Putting booth babes out of work doesn't seem like a real deal breaker to me either, because a (valid, in my opinion) argument has been made by the feminists that people should be hired for their skills. Standing in front of a booth is not a skill. It's not exactly gender neutral either -- how many of these booths have chip'n'dale dancers in front of them? Ideally if someone can't be a booth babe then they get a job that doesn't normalize objectification for them.

The conventions aren't public. The publishers and developers hire people with skills that go beyond standing around. This is advertising for them and nearly all of the people hired are professional performers of some kind; actors, dancers etc. Some of them rely on this work seasonally.

 

[Dr. Doomsduck]

The answer? Hire fans. Hold applications or something when you want to start a booth so that gamers themselves can apply for one day of promotion. In return, give them a days' wages and free tickets to the whole thing, as well as costumes of the character they'll be promoting (whether male or female).

I definitely like your idea, but I reckon that those costumes, if they're good quality, can be very expensive, like, worth more than a weekend's work at E3.

Ah, my apologies, I meant to also mention the costumes should be provided by the people hiring the publicity. So the people don't have to pay a substantial amount for the privilege of publicising their event, but they can get set up in a proper character outfit for the day

Oww, I see. Yeah, that makes sense!

 

[Shiro No Uma]

You're damned right I am.

Then do it on your own. I will ignore everything related to that.

My father is a retired foreign service officer. I used to be in the armed forces, now I am in academia. My fiancée used to work at conventions as a translator. By your yardstick, my old man and I are completely useless (since neither civil nor military service, let alone the humanities, "produce" anything tangible), while my fiancée had actually the closest to what you would describe as a "real job", since she helped the manufacturing companies she worked for attract and communicate with customers.

Ah yea right be an inch-picker.
If you want deliberately misunderstand people for your arguments sake then be my guest I won't argue any more. You know what I mean or you do not deserve to, either way is fine by me.

My point is this. Booth babes are an "evolution", if you will, of the tried and true booth girls which exist at literally EVERY type of convention/expo/trade fair [...] - some are there purely as eye candy, some have actual skills, and most are a bit of both.

And rarely any of them are needed.

There is no expression dumber than "real job", because usually, people saying that have no idea what the others' jobs entail. There are douches in academia who think that all manual labour could be done by apes or robots; by the same token, there are people who think that only manufacturing jobs are "real", forgetting the fact that those goods need to be marketed somehow.

You don't say.

If they are gone nothing of value will be lost. If that means I have to die from an infection gained through an unclean telephone headset so be it. I'll take that risk, my choice.

I actually don't think that you do know what you mean. Because of that we don't know what you mean. It's not inch-picky. YOU made made this an issue with your remarks. None of your answers here make sense so I don't think anyone is purposefully misunderstanding you. I think you spoke up on an issue that you have an opinion about but not much knowledge of - and that's OK. It is a public forum. But if you are wondering why comments like "what about the jobs? - How about getting a real one," and "And rarely any of them are needed," or "Everyone needs money but not all deserve it" get these responses it's because that's just not for you to decide and make you look a bit arrogant and misogynistic.

 

[Talvrae]

Well Jim can say that this time i agree at 100%

 

[Fearzone]

It is up to the event organizers to set a dress code--both for sellers and attendees, which can be different--thus determining whether booth babes are okay or not. If there were no dress code, the marketers would probably hire strippers in order to gain the most attention, which is their job.

People can demand event organizers tighten up the dress code for whatever reason they find best suits their personal opinion. Conversely the opposing side can humbly ask for looser dress codes to the degree it suits their entertainment.

Event organizers make the final decision based on what is most appropriate for the event, in their best judgment.

The end.

 

[Polarity27]

I think you kind of whiffed on this one, honestly. The problem with booth babes is that they're of a piece with booth staff who assume female attendees don't know how to game and games that only include women as characters if they're the love interest/motivation for the hero and not as actual *characters*. Collectively, it tells women who game that this product and this hobby isn't *for* us, that our participation is accidental, not part of the tapestry of the whole thing and valued customers in and of ourselves. Essentially, "you don't belong here".

You can't just fix one part of this and fix the whole thing, although it helps, I guess. On balance I'd rather see these companies actually think "women are a part of our customer base. What do they want to see, and how do we also market to them?" I think if people came at it from that end, the results would be a lot more helpful and a lot more organic than "let's ask the booth babes to cover up a little". I care a tiny amount about booth babes. I care a whole lot more about seeing women *in games*. I think most women gamers feel that way, honestly.

 

[FireAza]

I'm mostly with Jim on this one. "Booth babes" are unnecessary to the process of promoting games, since the game should be able to stand on it's own merits. I'm personally insulted that studios feel I would think more favorably of their game if they parade around some half-naked woman, like I'm some kind of 14-year-old boy. Of course, there would indeed be people who behave in such a manner, but these people should be getting their act together and acting like a rational human being instead of a horny chimpanzee.

But as Jim pointed out, this is a form of income for these women, so it's a little unfair to cut off their employment like that. However, there's plenty of other events that make use of half-naked women (car shows, swimsuit magazines, etc) so I don't think they would be out of work for too long)

 

[Kekkonen1]

If social progress wasn't allowed to disband certain vocational groups then we would still have people playing the piano in cinemas instead of having a pre-recorded soundtrack.

 

[The Last Parade]

Both Babes issue aside, one thing that annoyed me was the issue of cosplayers being harassed as well, these aren't professionals who are being paid to be there, they're people who love gaming and anime and have put effort into their look and paid their own money to be there

 

[zelatoth]

some people just need to ***** about something to get though the day. Me on the other hand, I try to get my picture taken with every both babe i see. They are there, they are doing their job and i might as well go along with it.

 

[Shiro No Uma]

Both Babes issue aside, one thing that annoyed me was the issue of cosplayers being harassed as well, these aren't professionals who are being paid to be there, they're people who love gaming and anime and have put effort into their look and paid their own money to be there

The big trade shows, E3, TGS, etc., are not really open to the public. You have to be part of the industry to attend, and if you don't have prof that you are you have to pay hundreds of dollars to get in. The show runners, sometimes part of the industry, set the clothing standards. Just lIke Disney Land, if you don't work there (if you aren't working at a both) they don't want you dressing up because it can cause confusion and look really unprofessional. I'm not about people getting harassed when they show passion for something by dressing up, but even some of the expos that anyone can attend have dress code rules that as attendees you must adhere to - sometimes just for insurance reasons.