Jimquisition: Booth Babes

[Shiro No Uma]

'You can't win when you do this kind of thing'

Agreed. People have spun sexism so much that someone will be upset no matter what.

My (perhaps conservative) take is that asking people to cover up isn't a huge deal. You want to wear a buffalo hide thong, do it out in public, not in a decidedly weighted environment (this goes for both genders, naturally).

Putting booth babes out of work doesn't seem like a real deal breaker to me either, because a (valid, in my opinion) argument has been made by the feminists that people should be hired for their skills. Standing in front of a booth is not a skill. It's not exactly gender neutral either -- how many of these booths have chip'n'dale dancers in front of them? Ideally if someone can't be a booth babe then they get a job that doesn't normalize objectification for them.

The conventions aren't public. The publishers and developers hire people with skills that go beyond standing around. This is advertising for them and nearly all of the people hired are professional performers of some kind; actors, dancers etc. Some of them rely on this work seasonally.

 

[Dr. Doomsduck]

The answer? Hire fans. Hold applications or something when you want to start a booth so that gamers themselves can apply for one day of promotion. In return, give them a days' wages and free tickets to the whole thing, as well as costumes of the character they'll be promoting (whether male or female).

I definitely like your idea, but I reckon that those costumes, if they're good quality, can be very expensive, like, worth more than a weekend's work at E3.

Ah, my apologies, I meant to also mention the costumes should be provided by the people hiring the publicity. So the people don't have to pay a substantial amount for the privilege of publicising their event, but they can get set up in a proper character outfit for the day

Oww, I see. Yeah, that makes sense!

 

[Shiro No Uma]

You're damned right I am.

Then do it on your own. I will ignore everything related to that.

My father is a retired foreign service officer. I used to be in the armed forces, now I am in academia. My fiancée used to work at conventions as a translator. By your yardstick, my old man and I are completely useless (since neither civil nor military service, let alone the humanities, "produce" anything tangible), while my fiancée had actually the closest to what you would describe as a "real job", since she helped the manufacturing companies she worked for attract and communicate with customers.

Ah yea right be an inch-picker.
If you want deliberately misunderstand people for your arguments sake then be my guest I won't argue any more. You know what I mean or you do not deserve to, either way is fine by me.

My point is this. Booth babes are an "evolution", if you will, of the tried and true booth girls which exist at literally EVERY type of convention/expo/trade fair [...] - some are there purely as eye candy, some have actual skills, and most are a bit of both.

And rarely any of them are needed.

There is no expression dumber than "real job", because usually, people saying that have no idea what the others' jobs entail. There are douches in academia who think that all manual labour could be done by apes or robots; by the same token, there are people who think that only manufacturing jobs are "real", forgetting the fact that those goods need to be marketed somehow.

You don't say.

If they are gone nothing of value will be lost. If that means I have to die from an infection gained through an unclean telephone headset so be it. I'll take that risk, my choice.

I actually don't think that you do know what you mean. Because of that we don't know what you mean. It's not inch-picky. YOU made made this an issue with your remarks. None of your answers here make sense so I don't think anyone is purposefully misunderstanding you. I think you spoke up on an issue that you have an opinion about but not much knowledge of - and that's OK. It is a public forum. But if you are wondering why comments like "what about the jobs? - How about getting a real one," and "And rarely any of them are needed," or "Everyone needs money but not all deserve it" get these responses it's because that's just not for you to decide and make you look a bit arrogant and misogynistic.

 

[Talvrae]

Well Jim can say that this time i agree at 100%

 

[Fearzone]

It is up to the event organizers to set a dress code--both for sellers and attendees, which can be different--thus determining whether booth babes are okay or not. If there were no dress code, the marketers would probably hire strippers in order to gain the most attention, which is their job.

People can demand event organizers tighten up the dress code for whatever reason they find best suits their personal opinion. Conversely the opposing side can humbly ask for looser dress codes to the degree it suits their entertainment.

Event organizers make the final decision based on what is most appropriate for the event, in their best judgment.

The end.

 

[Polarity27]

I think you kind of whiffed on this one, honestly. The problem with booth babes is that they're of a piece with booth staff who assume female attendees don't know how to game and games that only include women as characters if they're the love interest/motivation for the hero and not as actual *characters*. Collectively, it tells women who game that this product and this hobby isn't *for* us, that our participation is accidental, not part of the tapestry of the whole thing and valued customers in and of ourselves. Essentially, "you don't belong here".

You can't just fix one part of this and fix the whole thing, although it helps, I guess. On balance I'd rather see these companies actually think "women are a part of our customer base. What do they want to see, and how do we also market to them?" I think if people came at it from that end, the results would be a lot more helpful and a lot more organic than "let's ask the booth babes to cover up a little". I care a tiny amount about booth babes. I care a whole lot more about seeing women *in games*. I think most women gamers feel that way, honestly.

 

[FireAza]

I'm mostly with Jim on this one. "Booth babes" are unnecessary to the process of promoting games, since the game should be able to stand on it's own merits. I'm personally insulted that studios feel I would think more favorably of their game if they parade around some half-naked woman, like I'm some kind of 14-year-old boy. Of course, there would indeed be people who behave in such a manner, but these people should be getting their act together and acting like a rational human being instead of a horny chimpanzee.

But as Jim pointed out, this is a form of income for these women, so it's a little unfair to cut off their employment like that. However, there's plenty of other events that make use of half-naked women (car shows, swimsuit magazines, etc) so I don't think they would be out of work for too long)

 

[Kekkonen1]

If social progress wasn't allowed to disband certain vocational groups then we would still have people playing the piano in cinemas instead of having a pre-recorded soundtrack.

 

[The Last Parade]

Both Babes issue aside, one thing that annoyed me was the issue of cosplayers being harassed as well, these aren't professionals who are being paid to be there, they're people who love gaming and anime and have put effort into their look and paid their own money to be there

 

[zelatoth]

some people just need to ***** about something to get though the day. Me on the other hand, I try to get my picture taken with every both babe i see. They are there, they are doing their job and i might as well go along with it.

 

[Shiro No Uma]

Both Babes issue aside, one thing that annoyed me was the issue of cosplayers being harassed as well, these aren't professionals who are being paid to be there, they're people who love gaming and anime and have put effort into their look and paid their own money to be there

The big trade shows, E3, TGS, etc., are not really open to the public. You have to be part of the industry to attend, and if you don't have prof that you are you have to pay hundreds of dollars to get in. The show runners, sometimes part of the industry, set the clothing standards. Just lIke Disney Land, if you don't work there (if you aren't working at a both) they don't want you dressing up because it can cause confusion and look really unprofessional. I'm not about people getting harassed when they show passion for something by dressing up, but even some of the expos that anyone can attend have dress code rules that as attendees you must adhere to - sometimes just for insurance reasons.

 

[verdestylo13]

Why don't they show case Booth Men with a resemblance to the Game Character?
Would it be that hard to phone an agency to ask for a certain type of look?
Would it not be really neat to get a photo taken with either sex if they are identified with the game or product you like?

Booth babes might like their jobs they might not.... as they are not going to be kicked off the convention show floor any time soon at video game or car or electronic conventions and if we can get equally attractive men on the floor as well ... where is the problem. Eye Candy for ALL.
Attractive people have been used as spokespeople for years... Why now should it be banned now?

 

[Mr F.]

You are aware that MOSTLY we are agreed, right? Cause the example you gave of your friend (Or was it fiances friend? I cba reading up) who liked being a booth babe cause she is a gamer, well, none of us are arguing against that kind of crap. I even made a defence of cosplay and whatnot.

I am just wholly against women being paid to stand around wearing almost nothing, purely to be fucking eye candy. If they have a skill they are bringing, and they are not eye candy, then it is a totally different argument. As for anything else? Go re-read my original post and when you come up with a real argument against what I have said, get back to me.

Yeah, as a matter of fact, we would appear to be d'accord on most points. The one point on which we disagree, however, is the definition of "exploitation". Let's face it, there is a world of difference between getting paid for looking good, and getting paid for actually providing services in the sex industry: comparing booth babes to strippers or even prostitutes is like comparing a photo of a meal to a waiter or a cook. Not to mention that the line, as you yourself have alluded to, is blurry. Some of those girls may actually be interested in gaming, most of them probably don't mind being there as long as the cheque clears, and furthermore, there are differences in how those ladies dress up - at GamesCom a few years ago, Konami hired a bunch of Asian girls and put them in white and red kimonos. Hardly any skin except for some leg, nothing more than you would see on any classroom. Of course, there are companies like Razer at the other end of the spectrum, whose booth girls probably ARE actual strippers, and might as well be, for all they wear (the fact aside that they couldn't tell you the difference between a Naga and a Lachesis if their bloody lives depended on it).

Nuance. Context. That's what I'm asking for, and again, I think that we're mostly on the same page here. A pretty girl in an Elena Fisher costume at the Sony booth - cool. A pretty girl in a thong peddling case mods or keyboards - not so cool.
What grinds my gears is the notion - not necessary brought forward by yourself, but quite visible throughout this thread - that putting pretty girls ANYWHERE is tantamount to exploitation. Or that jobs based purely on looks are somehow worth less, less "real" even, than jobs based exclusively on physical strength or intelligence.

As Jim suggested, let's ask the ladies if they enjoy what they're doing. If half of them are disgusted by the notion of being ogled all day by sweaty WoW nerds, fine. Get rid of the lot. If one can conclusively prove that they do nothing as far as increasing business for their employers, the problem will solve itself. However, if the majority of them don't mind or even actively enjoy their jobs - then what is the problem here? Men like looking at pretty ladies. And even in the aforementioned cases of our gamer girl friend (with an MA in literature) working for Nintendo or my missus being hired because she speaks three languages fluently, there is ZERO chance of them getting hired if they looked like ogres.

My response will be short and academic. For two reasons. One being a lack of time, two being that I have spent about 8 hours reading shit by J Wolff and JS Mill. On the surface, I will agree with any of your arguments based on the harm principle and the works of JS Mill: To limit the freedoms of booth babes to do as they wish would be unjust as it goes against the harm principle; what they are doing can be seen to do no harm ergo it is not the right of the state (Or individuals) to prevent it. It goes into economics, these people are willing to do what they do for money ergo there job should exist.

However, once you start to look at utilitarianism from a broader perspective, you have to consider that it might be beneficial for society, regardless of the opinions of those being employed, to legislate against the existance of booth babes from a utilitarian point of view; if their existance can be shown to be damaging to women as a whole than it does not matter what their views are, their own freedoms should be rode roughshod for the benefit of society as a whole and the overall happiness of society.

Sure, this is authoriatrian in a degree (In a rather large degree) but there are arguments for authoritarian states with regards to freedom.

I am in the camp where there is a belief that for the benefit of society as a whole some freedoms should be limited or removed. I believe that regardless of the opinions of the booth babes (Or strippers, prostitutes and similar) they should no longer exist within a civilised society and their removal would not be negative whatsoever. In fact I would go so far as to say that their removal would eventually have far more positive effects for society than negative affects and from a utilitarian point of view this is all that matters, maximising happiness in the long term over happiness in the short term.

Sorry if that was overly academic. As I have said, been reading JS Mill and J Wolff all gorram day and it is all I am capable of thinking about right now. Plus I am somewhat of a utilitarian (Which gets me bad rap these days, apparently, but I no longer care) so the morals that particular philosophy impart have a large impact upon my world view.

 

[Nexxis]

I don't particularly care for booth babes, but I don't mind them as long as they're portraying a character in a game and aren't just there to catch the eye of male customers. And seeing how most characters in game tend to be male, I think that the booth babes serve no other purpose than to be man magnets. I'd like to see them make more real-life renditions of characters. Hell, maybe even have them do little skits and performances to draw crowds, or have a "stage" set up that resembles an environment in the game. Less focus on sex appeal and more focus on fun.

 

[Darmani]

Look. dress them like they do at other trade shows to assuage your I'm going to cocktail club with the dudes/for work guilt. Otherwise just treat them like the prettified presenters they are and are practically endemic in all parts of our society (here's a surprise a restaurant with non-young not thin and not pretty nonfemale host; they exist, certainly but lets not kid ourselves). Guys, Gen Nintendo and the breadth of its journalists have nothing to either prove or gain "cleaning up" out image and what have you just reeks of inconfidence. If autoshows, carnivals, church car washes, sporting events, and political protests use and have women in states of undress to attract where is the "oh my god how am I condoning this" coming from but belief we have to prove something.

By all means clean up the actions. Act professional. Make sure nothing wrong is happening. Add some cabin bois or whatever for ten percent of the men and growing number of female journalists there.

But this large maudlin play about female presenters as some great shame... *sigh*

REALLY.

Its getting old. We can by rated Mature and have gotten laid, the complete unattainable allure of woman and the issue of not devaluing the lust/appreciation for her it kinda weird.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

Simple solution. We add professional cosplayers along side them, and add some Chippendales-type gentleman as well. Rehumanizing, dehumanizing, and actual product display. More jobs created, for both the models and costume creators, the fanboys and fangirls get their eye candy, and the product gets advertised. Maybe improve working conditions as well, help out a little bit more.

 

[Overusedname]

Let them work, feel free to criticize the practice, let your voice be heard, and listen to what the women themselves have to say. That's a very important part of this. These are still jobs that people get paid for. I personally think it is very stupid, and the lack of a male equivalent sends a horrible message to female gamers and women in the industry, but it's still a job. But it definitely does some harm to the entire mediums image. But it's up to the individual company I guess. I don't think it's as effective as they think it is though.

I didn't watch the video.

B/c Jim's fat, I bet he'll pretend to be a feminist against booth babes in a desperate attempt to get pussy. Write me if I'm wrong.

Okay. You're pretty wrong. He's not against booth babes, and he's a genuine feminist.

He's also fucking married.

 

[LazarusLongNL]

Amazing show President Elect; Sterling!

A well balanced opinion with all sides taken in to account and a proper message to go along with it. This, is why i want to have your boothbabies....

You know if i could.....

Thanks for the show Jim!

 

[wearesoneutralthatithurts]

Booth Babes get hired through agencies, I'm pretty sure the gaming community hasn't heard from many of them is because they really don't care about gaming as a pastime.

It's a generalization of course. I'm sure there are attractive women out there that genuinely enjoy gaming. They'll always have a job at G4 though.

jeah but the "sexy" gamergirls are not there for your eyecandy. (And sadyl there are plenty of men whoch are too dumb tounderstand this.
I sometimes feel a little, well i dont know the appropriate word in english, uhm liek harassed.. i dont want to see half naked tits and asses everywhere and i am happy if i could avoid it.
this objektification of people, mostly women but also men is annoying and bad for the body image(i dont know if there are places in the exop where games for younger audiences are shown. and even if, you will be meeting this persons anyway. its a nice lesson to girls:this could be your job, to be stared because of your body and only because of your body, your mind and your personality are irrelevant. But i dont like this (super) modeling shit anyway. ) in tv and media it correlates with eating disorder and generell bady body images, i mean, hell, 50% of asked 11 year old healty and normal girls wanted to start dieting (survey in german, on mady by a youth-magazine) because they think they are fat... wtf is wrong here?
we show half children in our media that its iomprtantto be beauty for whoat-for others.. the model that wins the prize ist mostly too thin and that we ask why eating disorder and such shit prevails?

i think its a problem of society and the game expos doesnt stand in a vacuum..
it shows how women ale liked-beaty and displayed but not as a person but as candy.


and i think a hellot of men (might be the kind of men which rant about the possibility to date male charas if you male too (yeah, leasbians are okay, gay men not? eyecandy-factor again..) in ME and dragon age and start homphobic slurs online..)might feel very uncomforable at such a con if there were half naked musculuos men everywhere which try to interact or do like state alchemist Strong arm ^^

Maybe we ycould have acors and models wo arent half naked? maybe we yould have actors of all body images-but, okay, well most of the female chartesa are oversequelized and shallow and men come more often in all shapes and colours-but there is also this lame 30-jeahr-old-white-male-with-bronwn-or-black-hair.
(So at this point we coudl say-plz make more diverse characters, female (becaus there are much more less) and male. and let they be played by, hmn, maybe fitting fans or models and give them just normal clothes.
mix it, not 100% assn titties with little bit of clothing but diversity. maybe the next expo there will be a young lady croft with clothes and without monstertitties which can explain the game and play it with you. maybe you will stumble upon the masterchief in his armor which presents a trailer or there will be a big volus or sall volus or mario and luigi and link and zelda and and and... so much possibilities

diversity and love for the charakters > silly objectification and sexualisation for one audience-group lesser then 50%*



my beloved man hates half naked women if they areout on the street because he feeld friggin awkward because ist hard to him not to think about sex if someone is displaying his sekundar genitals.
and often he just want to walk the streets normaly without this. at this situation he has to deal with it, i have too. but there is this practice and its very..cheap i think. thats sad


(and - )its not that i donkt like pretty persons. i even wank or how you call this if its made by females. and use material. but this is my private time and i dont want this to be dragged out-and i dont want to watch people who acting.. well like in heat. (and i dont waht to meet such people or want to deal witch them because they think i could be one of these candygirls as well. )

well, its a complicated topic with many complicated words in it, so if there is something unreadable, plz ask then i try better. but then i need a dictionary.

 

[wearesoneutralthatithurts]

Both Babes issue aside, one thing that annoyed me was the issue of cosplayers being harassed as well, these aren't professionals who are being paid to be there, they're people who love gaming and anime and have put effort into their look and paid their own money to be there

I think this
"lets display a few hot grrls for candy and tell them to act nice (even if the customer act like a prick) because, you know the customer is king and gets what (we think) he wants."
Is the problem. (And that THE customer doesnt exist.)
I see big problem in harassing cosplayers, but dont you think the implication-that harassing these booth babes is somewhat more okay because, well that is what they are there for(and they have to smile and shut up) is much more problematic?

And i think its bad publicity too. the girls are (sometimes) in a gross situation which gamers act like blergh-and this fuels predjudice against gamers("i worked at this con and, uah you dont now what i have seen there...") (which only want sex and violence, isnt it?)
And sexual harrasment is a big issue (for both sexes but women have, i think more problems but the harrassent made by women is often seen as less severe-but that isn the point now.
i find it sad that the harrassment might be a point which is somewhat implicated-if you work there, you will experience harrassment-and THIS shouldnt be...
but i think the fire is fueled becaue these girls are depicted as candy, flesh, whatever.

(and some, jeah, they need work and have to endure this... i dont know how much joung people are unempleyd, here in germany you get money from the state(not much but enough- hobby, forget it, bur living is okay)until you have work. but in the us?

I think some might even like this expos and videogames and this kind of work (without harrassment) but i think the most are professionals who play act.)