Jimquisition: Buyer Beware

james.sponge

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You've made a valid point but truth is always somewhere in between, both consumers and developers are at fault here, the former for actually participating in horrible marketing schemes, DLC business, pre-order packs, DRM you name it, the latter for hyping their products beyond human comprehension and saying that less and simple is actually better.

All in all better stay out of it and spend your money on developers who actually respect you, I can live without buying next ME game :p
 

Magmarock

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Zachary Amaranth said:
In part, but mostly people argued against it without paying attention to his video. Jim already mentions the context of the other half of the video, but I sometimes suspect people just see a title like "Steam needs quality control" and jump in to argue against the title without watching the video. It's even less surprising when Valve/Steam is involved, because Steeeeeeeeam has an even bigger/more rabid defense force than Nintendo.
Yes I would agree with that. I haven't been happy with Steam for a long time. They haven't shown any games that I want or couldn't get from other places. I would say that Steam has the strongest white knights but after getting into some trouble of a thread I started about the decline over consoles. I'd say that consoles still have the strongest fan following.
 

Melion

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Having worked with commercials both as a job and as a study project, I can safely say that we as consumer for most of the time have the odds against us. We have to realise the publishers want to sell a product and also profit from it. Ofcourse they want to shine that product in the most positive light as possible. This doesn't ofcourse apply to every game developer and publishers out there but we still have to be wary just in case.

Sadly, it falls on the consumer to do atleast basic research about what they want to buy. I remember buying Other M at launch and did no research at all only went by the trailers released. I still regretting that purchase to this day.

Please do research before you buy that game everyone hypes about, it might save you from "buyers remorse"
 

Lightknight

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Nov 26, 2008
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A more informed consumer market will certainly help to punish the game companies that try to take advantage of them. But I also see no reason why blame can't be shared here. Not that Jim didn't admit some fault lie with the consumer but I do think it's important to emphasize that people who buy things without any knowledge of what they're buying do carry some blame. I do blame people who preorder a game based on a gussied up trailer for doing so. Like buying a car sight unseen based on a commercial where it moves a mountain.

It is, however, equally correct that PR companies are so controlling of material reaching the public before release that there's virtually no way to know that the game stinks. I personally do not buy games day one. I did purchase Skyrim and Halo 2 day one back in the day but the list is small enough to say I don't and I haven't been burned because of it. But Jim already advocates not preordering a game.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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jdarksun said:
josh4president said:
Wait, Jim, didn't you mock Mass Effect fans when they expected what they were promised back with Mass Effect 3?

That doesn't sound like something a consumer advocate should do.
What, precisely, were they "promised"?
For Starters (for jdarksun) Jim recanted on the "Mass Effect 3" thing and now agrees with the critics. I believe he even reminded us of this during his last video.

Secondly, for your benefit, Bioware made a lot of direct promises about how the ending of Mass Effect 3 was going to be, one statement from them was there was not going to be a simple "A, B, or C" ending, yet this is literally what you saw with "Mass Effect 3", as at the end of the game your literally given three choices for how you want to end the game. What's more Bioware long promised "Mass Effect 3" was going to be a complete story, and assured us that all of the questions were going to be answered by the conclusion of "Mass Effect 3". Not only did they not answer all the big questions, they released an actual app with behind the scenes information, where the game developers flat out say they never had any intention of answering all the questions since those answers could be spun out into other games in the franchise. What's more, when they started "Mass Effect 3" they literally had no idea on how to end it, apparently they pasted a fan-mail from a little kid up at one point and said "this should be the inspiration for our ending".

What's more there are thematic issues inherent in the whole "Mass Effect 3" thing. For starters the entire game is about winning non-win scenarios. Indeed "Mass Effect 3" has a central running gimmick where if you played the previous two games, you can literally resolve all of the hard choices in a way where you get your cake and eat it too and reap the benefits from both sides of every decision by having one of your previous companions who survived show up and lend
a hand. The ending is both surreal, and comes in one flavor of suck or another, there is no "the good guys flat out win" ending and having one is exactly what "Mass Effect" was always about even if other possible outcomes should have been there. What's more the ending didn't take into account all of the things otherwise going on, and rendered a lot of choices kind of irrelevant. For example through the game your putting together resources and new tech to fight the reapers so they won't have the normal advantage, among other things you are able to arm your ships with singularity torpedos and the like. This is to say nothing about various choices you make involving The Citadel and it's security.
At the end of the game in a playthrough where by definition the good guys should have tons of tech and preparation that The Reapers didn't calculate on, your still seeing everyone getting wiped out and so on. Raising the entire question of "why did I even bother?". To put things into perspective (since it's a favorite based on some of the flavor text) the basic idea of a singularity torpedo is it creates a black hole on/near the target, with all do respect to the reapers the whole bloody point of a weapon like that (and it adding to your resources) is that their shields and defenses weren't going to matter. Never mind the simple fact that by this point the good guys had themselves been re-arming
with the same tech/guns the Reapers had. The point here being that if you did everything "right" there should have
been a good ending with the Reapers pretty much getting their butts just flat out kicked in the final battle or whatever. This is to say absolutely nothing of the final "message" and how it's undermined if you say did manage to create a peace between the Geth and Quorians, you don't even have the option of saying "your entire cycle is BS, here
is evidence otherwise... oh and did you happen to notice that right now we have both Synthetics and Organics trying to stop you?"

The point here is that none of the endings gave "Mass Effect 3" a properly heroic series ending. What's more it was exactly the kind of "A B or C" choice they said wasn't going to happen, and the developers flat out lied when they said they were going to answer all the questions, and they knew they were lying when it happened.

Not to mention numerous game design issues. Having some Chinese Cyber-Ninja dude running around that doesn't fit in with the rest of the universe was really, really, bad. What's worse is when this same character that doesn't fit within the setting is used to railroad specific plot points "I kick the guy's butt... ooops here is a cinematic of him kicking MY butt and doing whatever I tried to stop him from doing and getting away anyway". In short exactly the style of garbage that "Mass Effect" was making a point of not doing. In a game where "your choices matter" suddenly saying the bad guy automatically wins in a cinematic (like a lot of games have done) is the exact opposite of what "Mass Effect" was supposed to be about and how this game series has worked.

Between this and "Dragon Age 2" (not to mention the desire to turn all their RPGs into Action-RPGs) I simply don't trust Bioware anymore. As I've said before I will not be pre-ordering any more of their games, and indeed will be waiting until after I hear all about them, including the endings... which means I can't even enjoy the full story anymore for fear that a bunch of developers with writers block decided to end the game while seemingly dropping acid
as they read fan mail from kids. Sure Bioware is making all kinds of promises "Really guys, Dragon Age 3 will be great, it won't be anything like these previous games... and we plan to give you all these options and have them matter for real this time, buy our product... please?", but they don't have any real trust from me anymore... and that's exactly what Jim is talking about, and where he's saying even more gamers should be.

If Bioware wants to get a serious pre-sell from me, what they need to do is sit down and actually re-do the entire ending of Mass Effect, at least giving it a proper ending for those that played the entire trilogy, even if they can't have ALL the choices matter like they promised (they themselves said this would be impossible due to all the variables... but it's not our fault they promised the impossible... so they deserve flak for that, but at the same time that doesn't excuse not having a proper ending). This whole "ending clarification" garbage might make things more clear, but it's polishing a turd... it's still a bloody turd, and I'm going to treat it like a turd as do a lot of people.
 

Atmos Duality

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canadamus_prime said:
Some of these practices should be illegal. In fact isn't blatent false advertising a legal issue?
False Advertising is remarkably easy to weasel out of.

Just stamp a tiny, blurry disclaimer onto a video or image and you can say or show whatever you want without fear of legal recourse. (which is how Aliens: Colonial Marines got away with its bait-n-switch scam)
 

Canadamus Prime

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Atmos Duality said:
canadamus_prime said:
Some of these practices should be illegal. In fact isn't blatent false advertising a legal issue?
False Advertising is remarkably easy to weasel out of.

Just stamp a tiny, blurry disclaimer onto a video or image and you can say or show whatever you want without fear of legal recourse. (which is how Aliens: Colonial Marines got away with its bait-n-switch scam)
Oh right, the old trick of putting "Footage may not be exactly as shown" in the smallest font size imaginable somewhere on the screen.
 

KDR_11k

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Come on, you haven't done your due diligence without waterboarding at least three executive-level employees of the publishing company...
 

Nazulu

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I've been saying for ages now how I'm sick of having to do deep research on every single game just to make sure it doesn't do something I'm against (like stupid DRM and Micro-rip offs) or because it's buggy as fuck. Even for fucking consoles now! Hell, they don't even make games I'm interested in any more. Then some fucking retard will come a long and tell me is all I have to do is look around. The industry now is fucking atrocious.
 

electric method

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I have to say I agree with Mr. Sterlings general thoughts and ideas in regards to the topic of caveat emptor. That said there are a few points that weren't mentioned. The biggest of those points being this; Games, like most of the rest of things that are sold, are based on the principle of Supply and Demand. In this type of economy the power *always* rests with consumer.

The fault for many of the terrible business practices surrounding gaming can be placed directly at the feet of the industry to start with, initially at least. Now? Now, it's not only the industry's fault, but the consumers as well. If, for example, everyone had seen where the horrid practices surrounding CoD were going to lead at the start of the Modern Warfare craze and just refused to buy a mediocre game (and it's DLC) then CoD wouldn't have become the monster it is. The consumers, NOT the pubs/devs set the table for more of the same. If consumers don't buy what the devs/pubs are shoveling then those same devs/pubs must go back to the drawing board and start creating games that we will buy.

In short, we as consumers did not start this hell initially, but it, sure as hell, is our fault, collectively, for it's continuing practice as we have continued to support it, buy crappy games, bad dlc, yearly release mediocrity and the like. Sorry, but until we as consumers exercise the power we have in this type of economy, well... then at least half the blame rests on our shoulders as well.
 

veloper

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Zachary Amaranth said:
veloper said:
No, it's not a get out of jail free card.

Games can be shit and the companies that produce them will get verbal abuse, but researching your games before you buy, is still sound advice, unless you like to play shit.

It's not like righteous indignation will solve anything by itself.
I don't think anyone's arguing that research is bad. Jim makes a solid argument in his video for the larger problem of information in gaming and contextualises his statement about "Buyer Beware." No offense intended, but did you actually watch the video?
I watched it and I say Jim doesn't have a leg to stand on. You cannot trust advertisement and that fact isn't unique to games and companies can get away with much.
This isn't going to go away.

So we just have to deal with the way it is now and forever and that means buyer beware.
The good news is that gamers are a vocal bunch and the red signs are usually all over the net for those willing to look.
 

LostTimeLady

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Grange Hill music! Genuinely made me laugh, that takes me back to watching BBC children's telly in the early 90's. (Blue Peter theme next week?)

On topic:
I absolutely agree Jim that apologists for the games industry should not shift the blame for product dissatisfaction onto the consumer, especially when the consumer has been subjected to false advertising.

Speaking personally, thinking back on my recent game purchases ("Papers, Please", "Bastion" heck, going back much further to "Minecraft") they've all had one thing in common, I have either seen an Escapist video review (I trust you guys), a Zero Punctuation video, or something on youtube either by Yogscast or PaulSoaresJr. I rarely, if ever, "risk it for a biscuit" because that biscuit is too flipping expensive. I think that says something about the state of the industry. I don't do the same when buying books or CDs (when I may have only heard one or two songs) but with video games, it's such a huge risk.

Buyer beware? Yes, quite.
 

Vegosiux

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I would raise a point that gamers should take the time to inform themselves about their purchases. Not because caveat emptor, but because that's the only way for us as customers to actually be able to do something about the deceptive environment the industry has degraded into.

So I won't say "Lol, if you had gotten yourself informer, you'd not regret buying that crap" but I will say "Yaknow, if you get yourself informed, you can do something about this entire issue."
 

Isengrim

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Maybe I am just impatient, but the issue is that the bubble doesn't burst.
In my eye's the "gaming community" ( to whatever and whoever this term exactly is supposed to relate ) so far didn't scream enough, didn't scream loudly enough and not long enough.
So far, the state is this: Steam has neither the quality control, nor a refund policy; day-one DLC and preoders are fucking everywhere; EA still makes profit; Developers of Guise of the Wolf or Garry's Incidenet were not bashed with a Raw Club +5 nearly enough times; IGN still bullshits everybody into the hype; and publishers publish unfinished buggy games all a-fucking-round like it's raining shit.

In other words, things are bad. Very fucking bad, and I am yet the see the consequences, because so far most people are just fucking happy to go with it.

What the hell is not wrong with them? With ( as "gaming community" ) us?!

Don't we have a sense of self respect, are we so damn addicted to the games that every time a new nice looking trailer comes out we're like "MUST HAVE MUST HAVE MUST HAVE MUST HAVE GOONA BE SO AWESOEM"?
Because that's how it looks like.
And yes, I used the term "we" despite the fact that it rather hurts me, considering what this community represends - being passive when faced with bullshit that hurts them. ( Yes, I vote with my wallet, for a long time now ).

I've grown to the state of bitter cynicism about every scrnshot and trailer I see, every game that is said to come out, to the point of me bashing the games I adore and in a removing a bit of fun that I used to have from them. To the point of me doubting the developers that made the games that I love, and never did anything to betray my trust.

All because of all the bullshit that is happening, all the crap that is pulled out, it seems to me like a spreading taint, with the only possible cure being burning everything to the ground.

I'm impatient because lack of backbone I see in gaming community kills my hope to ever see a change. All I can forsee is the taint spreading, the fact that I vote with my wallet made irreleveant by so many that just do not. My carefullness shattered by those that just go and preoder everything...

When will the bubble burst? Because it seems out it won't be soon enough. Or hopefully I am just impatient.
 

PunkRex

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Orcboyphil said:
Grange Hill?! That takes me back.
Me too... and I think I vom'ed abit.
Geeman said:
Oh Jim! Grange Hill!!! That takes me back. But whatever next... Byker Grove! >_>
I'm hoping for 'The Animals of Farthing Wood', shizz is like shakespere with forest critters.
 

Demonchaser27

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Thank god for you, Jim. I'm very surprised you had to explain this so thoroughly. Alas, your right. Some people are so deeply manipulated by corporate speakers that "free market" is the best answer. Does anyone forget how the food industry was before FDA? Don't get me wrong, the FDA isn't perfect and sometimes is absolutely stupid. However, people were getting sick and eating viral rats in their meals prior to this. And it went on for years... YEARS. Too many people get hurt for way too long.

Its literally impossible for everyone everywhere to be totally and completely informed. They don't deserve this bullshit just because they don't spend 9/10 of their lives doing fucking research.
 

Melion

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Demonchaser27 said:
Its literally impossible for everyone everywhere to be totally and completely informed. They don't deserve this bullshit just because they don't spend 9/10 of their lives doing fucking research.
But it doesn't actually take much time to do some basic research for a game or two. With the power of Google, it takes just around 30 minutes, an hour at most for me and I usually have enough info to go by that.
 

JoMama_v1legacy

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We are consumers, and consumer need to take a level of responsibility when purchasing products, whether they be games or anything else. And no, I'm not saying that we shouldn't be mad at companies for putting out shoddy products, but a consumer that blindly buys one of these shoddy products without any sort of knowledge of what it is - especially in a day and age in where finding such information takes minutes- then they are in fact just as big of a problem as the companies.

You brought up Aliens: Colonial Marines, which was a poorly made game. As such, the creators of said game should receive the blame. But then their are the numerous amounts of people who pre-ordered it with absolutely know knowledge of what the game actually was. I know you are against pre-orders, so should these people be completely exonerated for their bad decision? I don't think so. It was their poorly made, poorly researched decision.

Jim, I know you are for consumer rights, and I am all for giving more power to the consumer, but you need to realize that there is a point in which consumers don't need their hand to be held. Consumers are not a pet goldfish, they Conscious human beings, capable of making good decisions, and they are also capable of making bad ones.