Jimquisition: Crying Through The Laughs

[Kmadden2004]

what about Mass Effect 3? It was really sad when Thane died (or at least it was for me).

Boom, done in one. That and

Spoiler

Mordin got me legitimately choked up.

I think the entire Mass Effect trilogy is a good example of what JIm was talking about. The previous two games had their moments of humour, levity and victory. Whether it was cracking jokes with Garrus, or encountering a drunk Volus declaring himself the master of all biotics, you really felt that the world just kept turning while you were out saving the universe.

In Mass Effect 3 that all collapses, and is replaced by a growing sense of dread that hits you harder the more you delved into the previous two games. You really felt that you character was experiencing a cataclysm, especially during the fall of Thessia. Hell, even the colour palette began to mute at that point in the game as more civilisations fell to the Reapers, making it feel that all the life in the universe really was being drained away.

 

[Rad Party God]

I loved FFX, but the laugh scene didn't bothered me. Yes, it was kind of a WTF moment, but I wasn't bothered by it 10 years ago (damn, I seriously need to get a PS2 soon... so many games I want to replay and so many that I missed).

I played VII and VIII and while VII is definitely the better and my very first RPG ever, I didn't liked it back then. Nowadays, I find it quite charming at places, but I still don't like it as much as it's fans do. IX on the other hand, that's a game that I've never played and I'm seriously considering giving it a try.

As for other games nailing the depression through happiness, there's Guild Wars and it's pre-searing intro, especially if you get used to Gwen, that annoying little girl following you, smelling the roses at each step, it's definitely dishearting seeing your hometown utterly destroyed a few years later.

Also, Half-Life 2 and it's episodes is surprisingly optimistic despite it's shitty (and I mean REAL shitty) setting and I don't mean the generic NPC's lamenting their lives, I mean Alyx herself, her dad, Kleiner and the other scientists cheering for Gordon's return and you can even see their optimism for a brighter future rising.

 

[The Material Sheep]

So because other games have worse actors... This specific voice acting job is excused?

 

[Alandoril]

I think the main reason most stories these days, not just in games, always seem to be so depressing is because the real world itself is pretty depressing. Without their being much hope or joy to draw inspiration from it is hardly surprising that a great deal of narratives kind find any to include.

 

[TwiZtah]

Beyond Good and Evil managed this with flying colors. It's a game where every character is an antropomorphic animals and yet the emotions still gives me chills, that music when you take pictures of kids in crates.

 

[Kurt Cristal]

Surprised Max Payne 3 didn't get a mention. Like Yahtzee had pointed out, the game is so miserable that you never feel a sense of accomplishment when you do anything. And when something good does happen, it's like Max is so determined to remain unhappy that he won't allow himself to be happy.

 

[Ken_J]

what about Mass Effect 3? It was really sad when Thane died (or at least it was for me).

Legion and Grunt for me. Also the Asari Krogan couple oddly made me cry.

 

[Epona]

So because other games have worse actors... This specific voice acting job is excused?

No, but this laugh scene is brought up way too often when there are far better examples of bad voice acting.

I think the main reason most stories these days, not just in games, always seem to be so depressing is because the real world itself is pretty depressing. Without their being much hope or joy to draw inspiration from it is hardly surprising that a great deal of narratives kind find any to include.

We're all broke and struggling to pay the bills as prices go up and incomes don't but in my family, there are still plenty of laughs. Life isn't all that depressing.

It's just that the game industry is so hell bent on selling misery to gamers because they don't want to appear kiddy.

 

[Amaror]

snip

Gonna agree: I actually thought DA 2 had some better moments, emotion-wise such as

Spoiler

Anders' betrayal. It wasn't "sad" per se, but it was devastating emotionally. And Merrill's entire arc with the mirror really got to me, but that's partially because she was, in my opinion, an amazing character.

I wasn't that emotional about that stuff, but that has different reasons.

Spoiler

Merril and Anders seem to be the big two here.
I didn't really felt anything from Anders, because the Character was ruined for me from the start of the game. I grew to love Anders and Justice in Dragon Age - Awakening and the moment i met him in Dragon Age 2, he just isn't Anders anymore(HE DOESNT EVEN HAVE A CAT). Same goes for Justice, or should i say Vengeance. What a way to ruin two awesome characters at once. Through that i wasn't even that suprised when anders blew up the church.
I have no problem with characters betraying me but, for gods sake, make it reasonable. Why did he blew up the church? The fucking Templar main base wasn't that far away! That would have been understandable.
This is the main reason why i did not feel with the two characters, i explained Merril in the post you quoted. They just both act like incredible retards.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

Great episode. Very true. I'm a big fan of dark and gritty stories, so I never understood why I couldn't enjoy Gears of War, but you're right. It never has any ups to juxtapose the downs.

My favorite example is Mass Effect 3.

Probably the most depressing game I've ever played, but I remember it and it worked because it always had that air of hope and levity.
Even though it begins with sadness, it comes up from it.
Garrus and James comparing [s/]dicks[/s] achievements.
Little jokes made by the squad members on missions.
All the heroic moments like making the Reaper get nom nom'd on Tuchanka.

Spoiler: ME3 character death spoilers

It made things like Thane, Mordin, Miranda and Kelly's death so much more powerful.

[h1/]ME3 SPOILER: EVERYONE DIES AND IT WAS ALL A DREAM.[/HEADING]

 

[newdarkcloud]

what about Mass Effect 3? It was really sad when Thane died (or at least it was for me).

Mass Effect 3 (and the franchise as a whole) has several times were the crew is just hangs out a jokes around. It isn't always so relentlessly depressing.

 

[Kekkonen1]

Great show as always Jim!

Feel that you kind of misunderstand FF8 though. While you use FF9 as an example of a game that does very well having a positive happy main character whose subsequent meetings with tragedy works very well due to him being so positive and happy (cant argue with you there, FF9 is great!), you cant judge all main-characters by the same standard. I would instead say that Squall is an example of doing it the other way around:

I never felt that Squall was put through any huge personal tragedies during the game. He CAME from a very dark place, with a bad childhood etc, but he was constantly surrounded by friends that looked up to him and a cute girl that liked him. For me, FF8 and Squall was not a game that was trying to be tragic, but a tale of a character that came from such a dark place and finally, at the end, found that he dared to be happy (not quite unlike the journey of the main character or Evangelion, who is similarily accused of being mopy and whiny). I think that is a just as viable a journey for the hero to take, not to be struck by hardship so much but instead finding through the journey that despite what he himself thought at the beginning, he does have the strength to overcome these hardships and be a happy person. I think that sentiment is kind of beautiful.

 

[skylog]

How would Neku from The World Ends With You fit in? He doesn't start the game mopey, per se, but he does start at the bottom of the emotional scale, isolating himself from others for seemingly no other reason than for its own sake. Yet through the first third of the game, he grows to care about his game partner Shiki, giving some gravitas to the later events involving her.

 

[Kekkonen1]

How would Neku from The World Ends With You fit in? He doesn't start the game mopey, per se, but he does start at the bottom of the emotional scale, isolating himself from others for seemingly no other reason than for its own sake. Yet through the first third of the game, he grows to care about his game partner Shiki, giving some gravitas to the later events involving her.

Like I theorized in my previous post, Neku is also a good example of a hero that has another kind of journey than Zidane from FF9, instead being more similar to Squall or Shinji in Evangelion in that they instead come from a dark background but once again learn to trust and be happy. I think Jim kind of misses the point with that kind of emotional journey for the hero, just mistaking it for being a mopy emo downer.

 

[BreakfastMan]

Sorry, but um... Duh? This is pretty basic story-telling stuff you are commenting on right here. Did people really need this pointed out to them? 'Cause I thought most had already realized this. :\

 

[Proverbial Jon]

Someone clearly wrote on the FFX script: "Ha ha ha ha ha!" and then the voice actors read it exactly has written, people with no concept of the sound of laughter...

I saw a lot of Heavy Rain footage in that video. Now say what you like about Heavy Rain but I don't think it deserves to be scrutinised under this particular topic. The first section is all happy rainbows and sunshine purposely to show how low Ethan falls later in the game. I would say they showed the contrast pretty damn well from the characters, to the situations right down to the colour pallet.

 

[4173]

Obligatory

Spoiler

killing Mordin in ME3

. I did it just to see what would happen, and it was like eating a live kitten.

I think DX: Human Revolution did a fine job doing the gradual version. The game starts in a reasonably bright world that gets stripped away layer by layer.


The most memorable example for me is

Spoiler

Gorion's murder

in Baldur's Gate. Shit gets real quite quickly, after happy-go-lucky prologue of squishing rats and fetching cow tonic. The game continues to have nice highs and lows (Friendly Arms Inn, the fancy Ball, return to Candlekeep).

 

[Strife2GFAQs]

FFX had great voice acting for the time. I'm playing Lunar 2 right now. You want ****** acting? I'll listen to "the laughing scene" for eternity before I listen to Lunar 2's "actors" again. Xenogears (for what acting there was)was also ****.

FFX destroys those by miles.

 

[ex275w]

A very important topic that a lot of game writers forget most of the time.
I think Mother 3 is the game that perfects this principle, the game is incredibly sad yet incredibly happy at times. The jokes and witty writing enhance the tragic and sad moments.

I think Bioware deals with this horribly, as much as people are saying to the contrary, all their games begin bleakly, Dragon Age with you being exiled, your family death, etc. Sure it kind of lightens up in the middle, but the game is always brooding and I don't like it.
Dragon Age 2 is even worse with half your family dead at the beginning and since most of the characters come off as unlikable, and the Templar/Mage fight is a lose/lose situation, it just takes you out of the game and makes you not care. Same as Warhammer 40K, which is also relentlessly bleak all the time.
Mass Effect also tries to do this, and does it better than Dragon Age, but the tension is never completely broken and it makes me care less for the story and characters.

Games that do break the tension completely and are still bleak are: Max Payne 1&2, Batman: Arkham Asylum, Half Life 2, and Persona 3.

 

[ex275w]

Sorry, but um... Duh? This is pretty basic story-telling stuff you are commenting on right here. Did people really need this pointed out to them? 'Cause I thought most had already realized this. :\

Well it doesn't seem that many developers got that memo, since the later Final Fantasy games, Gears of War, God of War, and David Cage games all fit into this GRIMDARK pattern.