Tidus' laugh in that bit does sound clumsy, and forced. But do you know why? Because it was, objectively, a clumsy and forced laugh. He wasn't laughing for ordinary reasons, he was trying to kill his dreary mood. To say it was a problem based on bad voice acting is to take the scene out of context.
Nice to see you showed Mother 3 as an example, that game does tragedy perfectly, you really do feel for the characters when something bad happens, and though some of it is kinda predictable the fact that most of the game is so happy, cheerful and full of bizarre humour makes the tragedy even more noticeable, not to mention the way the characters act feels so real, my mind was blown with the opening act, seriously that game is awesome.
[sopiler= BUT >Ending SPOILERS!!!!<]Does it only have 1 ending because the one I got was kinda depressing, pffft, everybody dies, and I replayed that battle a shit load of times and chose all the different answers I could and I still only got that ending.[/spoiler]
Also about Elton John, Why wasn't he at the olympics?
Seriously I was waiting for him to show up during the entirety of the opening and closing ceremonies.
Quite possibly the best Jimquisition ever. Well done, sir. Well done. I never even liked Zidane much, but you're so right. He's much more interesting than Squall could ever dream of being.
The Modern Warfare franchise seems to be a great example of how to and how not to create an emotional scene.
The time in the first modern Warfare where the player climbs out of the downed helicopter after the nuke goes off was a moving scene because it ran counter to the all powerful super soldier fantasy the game had been building the entire time.
The subsequent versions show how the franchise stumbled upon the quality of that scene since they kept trying to recreate it, often through the exact same manner (i.e. killing the player.)
For the record for those who didn't play or just don't remember... Tidus' laugh was supposed to be that terrible. It was supposed to be forced, awkward and just... all around wtf.
There's your context for the scene, hopefully it helps it a little bit.
back to the topic, good episode jim. Emotional variance is the only real way to create a living, breathing character in a game.
This was a great episode. Normally, the style he uses (He acts like an overly confident, arrogant ass) makes it so that when I disagree with him, its grating and insufferable, and when I agree with him, it feels like a shallow, back slapping ego trip on my part. I know he is just playing a character, but the sense is still there. But this episode didn't seem to have that, and the point seems pretty much indisputable: I don't see many people disagreeing with the idea that you need to establish a baseline, happy status quo to appreciate a fall into tragedy. That's pretty straightforward character arc. So yes, this is a wonderful episode. Its a huge, glaring deficiency in game storytelling that fixing could improve tremendously.
I'll take your word for it with the Final Fantasy games. I have zero interest in them.
Here's an example of a game I've played that supports your idea.
The death of Hawke's mother was the most tragic moment I've seen in a game. There were plenty of light-hearted moments throughout the whole game that, at worst, had undertones of worry, sadness, or dread in order to offset the deaths of his family members and some of the other tragic moments, such as killing off Merrill's entire clan in self-defense.
In my play through, Bethany died. It was one of the saddest things that has ever happened in any game I have played because I tried so damn hard to save her and I couldn't. It makes me sad just thinking about it.
On the other hand I didn't care much for Fenris' plight because he was always a mopy jerk, so there.
I laughed my ass off the first time I saw Aerith die; never liked her or any of the other softhearted female protagonists from FF7 on up. Also laughed at the death scenes in Megaman X4 & Devil May Cry, but voice acting like that, who didn't?
Sir Jim Sterling John....Nah, Sir Jim John. That just rolls right off the tongue.
That laugh could replace waterboarding as a method of torture.
Well, I guess I know why FF9 is the only one Spoony hasn't taken a dump on.
Eh first Jim Sterling where I did not see his point, namely because I find most of the JRP dramedy he labels as example of the emotional investment done right to be poor, strained and unrealistic...I can't buy into it if its too ridiculously juvenile, fake or otherwise out there, which most JRPG storytelling is. On the other hand I was seriously saddened about Dom's storyline to contrast with GoW, his poster child for "one emotion"....but damnit, at least it does that one emotion Right. On the other hand there are plenty of other titles out there that do a bad job of this (i.e. Homefront); I just happen to think GoW is actually an example of one that does it well (for me, and other GoW fans, obvious YMMV).
I'll concede I was moved by poor Aerys dying in FFVII but lighting has not struck twice on any JRPG for me ever since, and probably because FFVII was relying on the player to fill in part of the voice and interaction, being mostly scripted text with no voice acting.
Might be a bit bias, as FF VIII is my favorite, but I disagree with the Squall comment. Yeah he's the classic 'loner' character (because of Ellone, etc) but to me he came across as more of a 'get the job done' sort of guy. He does actually have some great moments with his squad, not to mention his fairly significant attitude change during and after the space sequence. He's not miserable throughout the entire game, he's just a bit of an ass. What about Cloud and all his "I don't care about the planet" crap?
Also, I know it's at the very end but whatever, that final shot of Rinoa turning and Squall's smiling back at her gets me every time.
I guess I'm te opposite to most people when it comes to FFX. I thought Tidus was reasonable in his whining. I mean, he was forced out New York City and sent to Afghanistan (Moving from a culturally and technologically advanced city to a place obsessed with religion and shuns technoogy).
Daddy issues? It's one thing having a horrible dad, but having a dad you hate and everyone else glorifies? Ghandi's son committed suicide, you know.
The laugh scene in FFX gets so much hate that it is now good. In other words, it is not as bad as people say it is so that puts it squarely on the good side rather than the bad side. People don't seem to comprehend that it was MEANT TO BE A FAKE LAUGH and therefore it sounds like a fake laugh.
ehh, i find when people make this argument against characters like cloud or Leon, the expect them to be happy. why? clouds life is complete shite literally from sun up to down shite mentally scarred shite. why would they be happy, i understand tidus or zadane they never had to be a super soldier engineered for battle having to work for a company that is destroying the planet then having them lie to you and having your girlfriend killed, or under a beyond corrupt murderous government. oh im sorry should they smile should they be jokey, no one asks this of Bruce Wayne or wolverine.why not be happy though all that melancholy that they have the moral compass to do the right thing. and atleast those two dudes have something to do at the end of the day , alot of these characters are left as misplaced murderers in a world that doesn't need them anymore
I understand jims point lightning was a rather good one, but why expect happiness from character who's life is shit. If they do get a bit nicer,like for example wolverine, its nice but you don't expect it and nice but it aint necessarily going to happen to everyone, not everyone who goes though shite just gets happy or even gets better, thats life sometimes people just dont get better. i understand happier stories, but the final fantasy examples were kinda... eh. i could have though of better ones, ryu hayabusa, riku (in the begging of kingdom hearts) and many others.
People call these characters whiny but let me ask you lets take a notoriously dark back story, if you were made as a weapon of mass destruction, and your existence had gotten everyone you had grown to love killed, you were frozen and then revived decided to give everyone a benefit of the doubt and do the right thing for a world who dealt you a bad card, and then though the incompetence of another who is supposed to help you , you almost die and loose your memory just have it brought back by someone who had a hand in your creation showing you how vile your insides actually are, then finding out that being is basically your father, and then having to kill him.
no one, no effing one, would be smiling , his life is a pile of shite on shite wheat and to expect a happy moment is completely insane, showing your complete misunderstanding of the character. they don't have to be happy but learning to be better people is what is important, or descention into madness if that's your thing.
This^ It's actually kind of nice when you go to a thread and find out that people have already said most of what you're going to say.
People always hold the FF10 laughing scene up as a prime example of awful voice acting and terrible writing, when it's actually the direct opposite when viewed in context, an example of great writing with well done voice acting, because it's a fake sounding laugh in a situation that warrants it.
I actually like the fact that Cloud, Squall, and Lighting are cold and brooding, because they are not only soldiers, which you'd expect to be no nonsense types, but also go through one moment of tragedy after another, each worse than the last, the fact that they're not in fetal position crying their eyes out most of the game considering what they all go through and still hope to find some sort of happiness at the end of the road despite this is exactly what making them such strong and compelling characters. On top of that, these characters do gradually get less cold and brooding as their respective games goes on, and are fairly happy by the end because they actually have a reason to be, that's called CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, which is something people commonly overlook.
I don't know about everybody else, but I just HATE characters that are upbeat and optimistic without fail despite destiny sending them through the meatgrinder continuously without end. How can I or anyone identify with a character that doesn't at least constantly complain their lot in life if not sometimes break down completely despite endlessly going through things that would drive most real people on Planet Earth gibberingly insane?
I think a character is written best when a character is written either like Tidus was, having a pretty good life for the most part and thus is upbeat most of the time, but when they go through crap, they complain about it (whining would only be if someone complained constantly with no justification or long after the justification warrants it) and/or mope for a while until circumstances cause them to not have reason to, or being the opposite, having a constantly crappy life but being willing to be happy for at least a while in the rare moments things DO go well. In other words, for me characters are best when they act realistically, which since Tidus, Squall, Cloud, and pretty much all the main characters of FF13 do exactly that, and despite this are hated for it, I guess that's one of the deadly sins of gaming.
About the OT, that is technically true Jim, happy moments in games can make the otherwise extreme tragedy the protagonists go though all the more effective at drawing emotions out of us, but it isn't a requirement, it's just one possible way of achieving that feeling of connection. A game can be constantly gut wrenchingly depressing as well, it just needs the protagonist or protagonists to have a goal for them to a achieve, a hope spot, something that drives them, that will give them happiness or at least make things better than they are. Even if they never actually make it, if the protagonists have this and continue to strive for it despite the sadness of what's going on around them, then their determination causes us to become emotionally invested in it because we WANT to see succeed, and more than that, we make it happen. Then when something happens that makes it look like it will keep them from making it, it has a strong emotional impact on us, the players. A good example of this would be Shadow of the Colossus, a game that begins depressing and only becomes more and more so as we kill the innocent titular creatures, all to save a woman that the protagonist Wander loves, and he succeeds, but ends up paying a high price for it, so it even ends on a depressing note. Despite this, Shadow of the Colossus is considered a very emotionally moving game.
The real problem is not how much tragedy there is, but how well that tragedy is presented, and the gaming industry as a whole is doing a crappy job of making tragedy work.
Yeah, I've used this screen name since than. I was kind of disappointed when he finally appeared though. I was expecting something more out of him. Oh well, when you're 10 EVERYTHING sounds awesome. Even someone you only know by a 16-bit jackal head pinned to a wall.
Possibly controversial addition: Zelda: Twilight Princess. At least for me.
Although it is somewhat darker than other games in the series, for the most part at first the game is still pretty light-hearted, especially given Link's success in saving the world. That changes after you finish Lakebed. Zant appears after you get the third Fused Shadow, says some threatening things to Midna, then forces her into the light world - basically condemning her to a slow and agonising death...
...and throughout, this is playing:
What happens next is something I refuse to give away, even inside a spoiler tag. Suffice to say, it defies at least one very major convention (this is Nintendo and you'd think they don't defy conventions), and it's something that somehow never got spoiled for a guy who's seen Touhou ending details.
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