Jimquisition: Crying Through The Laughs

[SoMuchSpace]

I am so surprised HL2: EP2 didn't get a special mention for making tragedy matter in a bleak, tragic setting.But maybe he didn't do it cause it proved his point wrong.

Actually, while I like HL2's story, I didn't find that moment you're referring too a big enough tragedy as I wasn't really invested in that character. It was a bit of a shocking moment, but not a sad one for me at all. So ... no.

Really?Wow.Guess each to his own.

Though that moment always comes up whenever anyone talks about the saddest things in gaming.Infact, the whole glimmer of hope after the end fight, the whole 'things are looking up for us now' at the end plus his little heart to heart really set that moment up well.It was pone of the fewest moments in which NPC's in HL2 were happy.

 

[SugarSkulls]

One thing I said to a friend about FFIX when Zidane goes emo was something like, "He's been happy the entire game, he's allowed this."
Not exactly a great point but I though it a relevant piece of testimony. FFIX had almost everyone go through little happy sad arcs. Steiner was almost the anti emo, but I don't think he was ever sad, just serious.

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

I am so surprised HL2: EP2 didn't get a special mention for making tragedy matter in a bleak, tragic setting.But maybe he didn't do it cause it proved his point wrong.

Actually, while I like HL2's story, I didn't find that moment you're referring too a big enough tragedy as I wasn't really invested in that character. It was a bit of a shocking moment, but not a sad one for me at all. So ... no.

Really?Wow.Guess each to his own.

Though that moment always comes up whenever anyone talks about the saddest things in gaming.Infact, the whole glimmer of hope after the end fight, the whole 'things are looking up for us now' at the end plus his little heart to heart really set that moment up well.It was pone of the fewest moments in which NPC's in HL2 were happy.

Also, let's be fair -- there IS a lot of hope in HL2. The relationship between Eli and Alyx Vance *is* a happy one. They smile together, are happy to see each other. There's also a lot of humor -- Dr. Klein and Heady are pretty funny, and Barney is a rather sarcastic character.

There are rousing moments, such as the Anticitizen One section. There's Cubbage, and his whole fun faux-heroism.

HL2 has a permanent sense of loss and despair, but it still has a lot of happiness, hope, and humor. Because the people are human. It absolutely does not disprove my point. It only enforces it.

 

[SoMuchSpace]

I am so surprised HL2: EP2 didn't get a special mention for making tragedy matter in a bleak, tragic setting.But maybe he didn't do it cause it proved his point wrong.

Actually, while I like HL2's story, I didn't find that moment you're referring too a big enough tragedy as I wasn't really invested in that character. It was a bit of a shocking moment, but not a sad one for me at all. So ... no.

Really?Wow.Guess each to his own.

Though that moment always comes up whenever anyone talks about the saddest things in gaming.Infact, the whole glimmer of hope after the end fight, the whole 'things are looking up for us now' at the end plus his little heart to heart really set that moment up well.It was pone of the fewest moments in which NPC's in HL2 were happy.

Also, let's be fair -- there IS a lot of hope in HL2. The relationship between Eli and Alyx Vance *is* a happy one. They smile together, are happy to see each other. There's also a lot of humor -- Dr. Klein and Heady are pretty funny, and Barney is a rather sarcastic character.

There are rousing moments, such as the Anticitizen One section. There's Cubbage, and his whole fun faux-heroism.

HL2 has a permanent sense of loss and despair, but it still has a lot of happiness, hope, and humor. Because the people are human. It absolutely does not disprove my point. It only enforces it.

You're referring to the Half Life series as a whole.I get what you're saying, but only in the context of Episode 2, i don't think it' really applicable.

-The whole tone of the first half is extremely sad because the player is uncertain if Alyx will live
-When you do revive her, The GMan pops up and reminds you that you are merely the pawns of his chess set, and that everything that is happening is because he has been controlling it
-The advisors have hatched and have become much more of a threat than in their incubation stage
-The combines are marching towards the last base of the resistance with al they've got - one strider and the whole mission is bust
-Judith Mossman could be under the combine imprisonment, they could very well be torturing her to reveal information about the resistance
-The Borealis : we're unsure what it does, but constant reinforcement makes us feel that it should be destroyed

There's maybe 3-4 happy interactions, but even after the final battle is over, you have to go save Judith, and then that moment happens.

My point is this - The overall setting of Ep2 is bleak and sad.In fact the pfirst half has been the lowest feeling of despair and loss you've ever been given by the series.It ends as whole, tragically.You seem to say that in order for the sad thing to wrok, we must be given a montage of an hour of alyx, eli, kleiner and barney hugging and smiling each at each other.Sadness works depending on how much you bother to delve into the story of the character.You weren't invested in Eli, therefore you didn't find what happened to him sad.I was, so i did.The whole happiness needs to be there so that we notice sadness is just...strange.


-

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

I am so surprised HL2: EP2 didn't get a special mention for making tragedy matter in a bleak, tragic setting.But maybe he didn't do it cause it proved his point wrong.

Actually, while I like HL2's story, I didn't find that moment you're referring too a big enough tragedy as I wasn't really invested in that character. It was a bit of a shocking moment, but not a sad one for me at all. So ... no.

Really?Wow.Guess each to his own.

Though that moment always comes up whenever anyone talks about the saddest things in gaming.Infact, the whole glimmer of hope after the end fight, the whole 'things are looking up for us now' at the end plus his little heart to heart really set that moment up well.It was pone of the fewest moments in which NPC's in HL2 were happy.

Also, let's be fair -- there IS a lot of hope in HL2. The relationship between Eli and Alyx Vance *is* a happy one. They smile together, are happy to see each other. There's also a lot of humor -- Dr. Klein and Heady are pretty funny, and Barney is a rather sarcastic character.

There are rousing moments, such as the Anticitizen One section. There's Cubbage, and his whole fun faux-heroism.

HL2 has a permanent sense of loss and despair, but it still has a lot of happiness, hope, and humor. Because the people are human. It absolutely does not disprove my point. It only enforces it.

You're referring to the Half Life series as a whole.I get what you're saying, but only in the context of Episode 2, i don't think it' really applicable.

-The whole tone of the first half is extremely sad because the player is uncertain if Alyx will live
-When you do revive her, The GMan pops up and reminds you that you are merely the pawns of his chess set, and that everything that is happening is because he has been controlling it
-The advisors have hatched and have become much more of a threat than in their incubation stage
-The combines are marching towards the last base of the resistance with al they've got - one strider and the whole mission is bust
-Judith Mossman could be under the combine imprisonment, they could very well be torturing her to reveal information about the resistance
-The Borealis : we're unsure what it does, but constant reinforcement makes us feel that it should be destroyed

There's maybe 3-4 happy interactions, but even after the final battle is over, you have to go save Judith, and then that moment happens.

My point is this - The overall setting of Ep2 is bleak and sad.In fact the pfirst half has been the lowest feeling of despair and loss you've ever been given by the series.It ends as whole, tragically.You seem to say that in order for the sad thing to wrok, we must be given a montage of an hour of alyx, eli, kleiner and barney hugging and smiling each at each other.Sadness works depending on how much you bother to delve into the story of the character.You weren't invested in Eli, therefore you didn't find what happened to him sad.I was, so i did.The whole happiness needs to be there so that we notice sadness is just...strange.


-

Yes, but it's an episode. It's built from a plot and characters that have already been established. They've been developed, and this is them at their lowest. This does not disprove what I said. The characters have sunk lower than was established previously. This is different from characters that start miserable and never go anywhere else.

 

[LordLundar]

You know, overall I like FF9. Not my favorite, but I like it. There are 4 things that irritate me about it though:

1) It plods along. It feels like the characters are wearing lead shoes when they move. Not the worst of it I seen (Legend of Legaia is FAR worse) but it still feels sluggish.

2) The end boss. Ahem, spolers coming up:

Spoiler

Where in teh hell did Necron come from? There's no mention of him in the story and no mention of any impact on the characters. The crystal itself from the title art as well just has no relevance throughout the story until after you beat Kuja when it pops up.

3) The forced PlayOnline focus. Now this is more related to people like myself who have no issue using strategy guides and the like but most of the information and anything relevant to what a guide should have forced you to look up online. Now this was at a time where net speeds weren't nearly as fast as they are now so it was a pain at best with no alternative. And if you want to use the guide now? Better find an archive of the info because Square cut it out long ago.

4) Quina. Never fond of that character really. Any time I had an option not to have her, I took her out of the party.

 

[Triality]

Jim,

What your messing was driving home this time reminded me of a point Yahtzee had made before, and that is juxtaposition. In his point however, he was analyzing the pacing of action sequences in (i think) his review of Modern Warfare 3.

Great and well articulated point though, Jim.

 

[Ramzal]

I'm always struck by how poorly people rate character is how "Gloomy" or "Emotional" characters are in games.

Some of the best writing in history have men who out right CRY because they've lost their strength/wife/gold.

In the Epic of Gilgamesh, his equal Enkido cried because he lost his superior strength just from integrating into human society. And cried harder at the idea of frighting Humbumba, the guardian and monster of the Cedar forest. Yet he is regarded as a very deep person, and very much human by philosophers and masters of literature.

One of many African gods created man by a mistake while drunk and wept for days at his mistake due to the fact that they were flawed. Yet this made him more human in the eyes of many.

In the Ramayana, Rama worried and cried and wept when his wife was taken from him by Ravana. A monster that kidnapped Sita.

These characters have shown tears, for causes large and small. Yet they have been praised for years. And people complain about Squall who keeps people at arms reach because he lost his sister and don't know his parents? And even turned down as an option for adoption because he was difficult to handle due to his cooping?

Or that Hope is "whiny" when for Christ sake, he watches his mother -die in front of him-? Are you kidding me? How is a child whiny after watching their mother die? Most people who are adults and see their parents pass naturally can fall into post traumatic stress.

And even Lightning, she was acting that was because she was afraid. She didn't know what to do with a death sentence of a slow and gradual nature or one that comes swift and painful by a hail of bullets. The character is literally put in a hellish situation. How do you expect her to react?

Honestly, I can't help but feel that video gamers should have no weighed opinion that could even be found to have any value on how a character is written without even understanding how human relations, mythology, social interactions work.

 

[Random Argument Man]

It's so true about FF9 that I almost die of your reasoning...

FYI, I almost die of laughter because of Jim while I was watching the Escapist Expo... Thank god for you.

 

[Adalberto Vazquez]

Ironic that That Laughing Scene comes up, cause it's specifically Yuna and Tidus talking practicing laughing to cover up when they feel sad.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

You definitely nailed this one Jim. As a huge FF fan I would agree with everything you had to say about those games. Final Fantasy IX is an underrated gem. The Square of today has completely forgotten how to make likable characters with actual story arcs.

The series is in decline now. I'm hoping falling profits will be the 'kick up the ass' Square sorely needs.

 

[sagitel]

so i think the better version of this story arc that a guy is cheerful and all and then gets all his hopes and dreams crushed, is that we have a depresed and lonely(aka standard) kind of hero that the further in game we go gets more hope. we work for that hope and cheerfulness then the villain comes and crushes the guy. to a point lower than his starting point.

 

[FalloutJack]

Why isn't the sound working?

 

[Cid Silverwing]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathy

Why is it so hard to understand that old world thinking does not apply to new world problems? Juxtaposition and liberal practice will mix shit up the way we need them to.

 

[Bloodstain]

Thanks, Jim. Final Fantasy IX is my favourite FF game.

...and...oh dear, the laughter. I played through Final Fantasy X lots of times, and I really like it, but....I forgot how painful this is to watch.

 

[Spud of Doom]

I liked the way this video was going but I had to exit out of it pretty early on and avoid reading any comments in this forum topic, for fear of multiple unwarned spoilers.

 

[krazykidd]

I wasn't expecting him to name any FF games, least of all FFX. Although, and I have to put on my flame suit, I think FFX-2 did this as well.

...

...

...

I'll pretend i didn't read that.

OT: great video , but why the assumption that every game wants to be tragic? I think FF8 was trying to do the oposite of being tragic, i would argue that Squalls developpment in the game tries to show that people shouldn't be apathetic. The story works it's way from the bottom up.

As opposed to FF13 where it was doom and gloom until the very end. Hell even the ending was bitter sweet if not downright gloomy.

 

[TheHardcase]

The best example of this I can think of is actually from tv. How I Met Your Mother is not a perfect show, but it has done tragedy well. Specifically with the characters Marshall and Barney. Both of them are unreasonably happy (in their own ways), and seeing Marshall lose his dad or Barney struggle with his choices regarding women is the only really powerful thing in the show. Because Ted is whiny and kinda depressing most of the time, and Robin is cold, I find I care a lot less when bad things happen to them.

 

[Stuntkid]

As a Mississippian I have to say

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!

 

[LightspeedJack]

Jim...I...I think I love you.