Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

[Snowblindblitz]

Man, I'm not the best at FPS but would really love to play some CoD.

Better make it an RPG or turn based.

Remember when Skyrim came out, and everyone was up in arms over all the streamling and yadda yadda fast travel, yet somehow, they got very little flak, just a "Yep, them casuals".

We complain about changing the core of the games experience, and we're elitist.

 

[Artemis923]

Dark Souls is one of the last bastions of "brutal" or "challenging" games in today's world of dick-holding, arrow pointing romp of easy that is the game industry.

Outside of some indie games, the majority of games that have recently released have been piss-easy, even on maxed difficulties. I would get your argument if the majority of games were too punishing for players, but that's not the case. Dark Souls was made for the challenge, for that old school feeling of "memorize this area, learn how to play yourself."

Can't we just leave that alone? Does everything REALLY need to be made so easy that it takes little to no skill to win?

 

[Entitled]

This whole failure of Jim here kind of reminds me of the Mass Effect 3 fiasco, that game journalists used it as a launching pad to rant about unpleasable fanbases who always whine about series endings, then unfortunatly for them, it became clearer and clear that they picked a wrong target, as ME3 really did have an objectively shitty ending, and fans could repeatedly explain that in detailed, rational arguments that had nothing to do with entitlement or audience arrogance, just the fact that ME3 really had some Phantom Menace-quality writing.

It's the same here. Jim probably heard people complaining about "casuals", and about "games nowadays being too easy", then when he heard that the Dark Souls fandom is particularly loud about it, decided to launch an attack against them from that direction.

For future reference: as long as there is no significant reason why a particular fandom might consist of ESPECIALLY whiny people, you might want to look into the possibility that they might be that loud, only because they do have a different, and more mainstream-identifiable point this time around.

 

[WWmelb]

I think this is the first time i've carefully read every post in a 10page thread.

Overall, i counted very few posts defending Dark Souls in it's pure form coming off sounding elitist and and trying to put people off the game. A couple, yes but very few. Nearly all posts saying an easy mode would be a bad idea were well thought out and very clearly explained.

Yet.. basically none of those comments were ever quoted, and the small minority of the elitist sounding posts were quoted over and over.

The dark souls community, as a whole, want more people there to play with. we welcome newcomers with open arms and are ready to help. But, no an easy mode is not necessary.

Even dark souls as it is now, playing by yourself, a quick google will show you how to play easy mode through 80% of the game. A certain sword from a certain dragon's tail... Not to mention Solaire and Maneater Mildred can make the training bosses a little easier to comprehend, even if it's just to tank for a bit and let you get a feel for them.

I know DS is not perfect, there are some pretty big flaws which can be worked out in the tutorial and what not, but it just isn't necessary, and to be honest, would make all forms of multiplayer unbalanced, unless they had to put more money into more servers to keep "easy" and "prepare to die" servers segregated.

Out of curiosity, do the people who haven't played much or any of dark souls realise just how big the multiplayer component of the game is? And if they do, do they see how it would be negatively effected by multiple difficulties?

In a way, with this concept, WoW had the right kind of idea. Easier versions of raids with lower quality versions of the loot, so the more casual players could experience the story. A major difference though is, WoW has 9million players who pay a monthly fee to play. They are paid to continually cater to all players. Blizzard are in essence the employee of their subscriber base.

Dark souls does not have a monthly income of $100,000,000. Those extra services are COSTLY, and not able to be supported by most.

Wow also at one point required a full time job commitment to it to progress, which was absurd.

Blah, 5am and blathering on half asleep.

No to easy mode. Yes to more accessiblity. Yes to more community. Come play with us, we will welcome you into our world and help you through the Capra demon.

Then probably invade you and cut you to pieces, but with a bow at least

 

[WWmelb]

Oh and also

This is the first time i've seen Jim called out so many times on his own attitude. And the first time i've seen him called out that he hasn't bothered to come and defend himself.

I kind of neglected that side of this video too...

Jim; your condescending attitude and your own elitism towards a group of gamers is disgusting. You obviously had no clue as to why the DS community want it kept the way it is and it has nothing to do with wanting to keep people out of it.

Please come and explain yourself or defend your hate filled and ill-informed remarks.

This comes from someone who has supported you from day one at the escapist.

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

There are valid concerns with the "dumbing down" of our entertainment, but as with so many issues, there are just as many invalid ones. This is especially true when "inclusiveness" and "dumbing down" are seen as the same thing.

Watch Video

hey hey hey Jim, you remember that episode you did a few months ago about Resident Evil 6 and the "we're trying to attract a wider audience" thing that made it not only suck but destroyed its own genre by becoming ALL of them? I'm sure you remember that episode right? You want me to link it to you?

What gamers are afraid of is having a game series that has a dedicated and devout audience that actually has a game dedicated to their wants from a game becoming RE6: Its Everything and Nothing at All. Oh and the new director, doesn't have a very good track record with games either.

I remember it. And I see what you're trying to do. But you didn't pay a damn lick of attention to the video if you think that what you're trying to do works.

 

[girzwald]

I have always been confused by people who get all bent out of shape when there are optional features in a game to make it easier or harder. In my eyes, more options is always better. That way everyone is happy. You want an easy experience, you have it, you want a punishing one, there ya go.

I like your assumption that as a matter of fact you can make everyone happy with a game if you just put enough options in it. You can't. It's why things like genres exist in the first place.

I like my assumption also. That is why I made it. Thank you for noticing!

It's a false assumption. You can stick as many customization options, modes, in a Madden game as you want. I'm not going to be interested in it. The same thing applies to other people regarding Dark Souls.

Thats a terrible example. A football game is not the same as a fantasy 3rd person action game. You aren't not interested because madden doesn't have enough options......you aren't interested in it because its a football game (I'm guessing this).

"Super hard unforgiving action adventure fantasy game" is not a genre. If someone simply does not like a genre, there is probably no overcoming that no matter how many options there are. In a football game, making a mode where the opposing team does nothing but a 10 yard punt when its their ball or make the opposing quarterback run around like a retard won't make a game attractive to you if you don't even like football, let alone football games. But if someone likes something like lets say, darksiders, then dark souls is pretty close, if not the same genre. And something like an easy mode that allows you to take a mega beating from enemies before dying or losing less souls upon death is what would make the game more attractive to more people.

And I'm going to put this out there. An easy mode would benefit you in the long run. More people buying the game = more money for the company that makes it = better/more future games.

So, everyone can win with an easy mode. People who don't have lightning reflexes can play a good game. People who like soul crushing challenge can have their "true" modes to look down upon the little peoples with smug senses of superiority and disdain. A game company makes more money, so they can make even more games with soul crushing "true" difficulty with easy modes.

 

[girzwald]

Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

There are valid concerns with the "dumbing down" of our entertainment, but as with so many issues, there are just as many invalid ones. This is especially true when "inclusiveness" and "dumbing down" are seen as the same thing.

Watch Video

hey hey hey Jim, you remember that episode you did a few months ago about Resident Evil 6 and the "we're trying to attract a wider audience" thing that made it not only suck but destroyed its own genre by becoming ALL of them? I'm sure you remember that episode right? You want me to link it to you?

What gamers are afraid of is having a game series that has a dedicated and devout audience that actually has a game dedicated to their wants from a game becoming RE6: Its Everything and Nothing at All. Oh and the new director, doesn't have a very good track record with games either.

Making a specific game within a specific genre with an easier and more forgiving mode to make it more attractive =/= trying to be the jack of all trades and have several genres within a genre to attract more people and doing them all terrible.

RE6 did the latter.

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

I don't have time for arguments this week, unfortunately, but let me just address some things briefly before flying off into the night. Once I've said this, I'm done on the topic for now, though I may need to do a new video after the holidays for those who spectacularly missed the point of the video:

The difference between an optional easy mode and the homogenization of videogames is as simple as the difference between Ninja Gaiden Black's "Ninja Dog" mode and Ninja Gaiden 3. One game had an optional extra mode for people who didn't want brutal challenge, and one tore the default experience apart.

Easy modes aren't a new concept, people. Capcom had some of the most hardcore action games around, and they actually offered you an easier mode if you had your ass kicked one too many times. Nobody complained about that. Nobody believes the core Devil May Cry 3 experience was ravaged by multiple difficulties. And frankly, it's pretty insulting to Dark Souls if you think ALL it has to offer the world is difficulty.

As for my attitude in this video ... uh ... welcome to the Jimquisition? Apparently it's okay for me to have this attitude when it's people you don't agree with -- not so now. Should I reshoot the video in a non-condescending "easy mode" format for you?

 

[anthony87]

snip

But didn't you read the posts from Korten? If they were to add an easy mode then they'd have to completely rebuild the game from the ground up! He said it over and over again so it must be true!

EDIT: Awh...quote snip fail

 

[Shadow-Phoenix]

I just love how far this thread has gotten since we all should know bickering about it here isn't going to change the game getting another mode and hey if you don't like it like many seem to parrot here a lot (without thinking it insults most people) Maybe it's not your cup of tea? (anymore)

Seriously this whole thread is in a right state with people pulling out anything in order to crush the people who don't mind or would like an easy mode and again whether you like it or not that does come off as an elite type of action where as you could just accept the game is going to have that mode or just move onto something else because quite frankly I can't see the majority of you here just playing the one series and completely nothing else while claiming it's the only hardest game in the history of video games because that would be quite subjective.

Please for those that want to bash others because they "don't get how the game works or how it was designed" think for just a moment because some people won't understand and some will and still not agree with what you say so let it slide and move on or just find something else to keep you pre occupied from raging at someone else's understanding.

Honestly I've played Dark souls after my room mate was done playing it and while it was ok I didn't exactly feel that overall sense of accomplishment because I'm that type of player that can want a challenge sometimes and sometimes I just want to admire what else a game has to offer and not everyone likes getting ***** slapped in a game hundreds of times over and be expected to enjoy the thrashing.

 

[keosegg]

I personally think that every game should have an easy mode. Video games are the only medium that REQUIRES you to be skilled at the medium in order for you to enjoy it. Unlike music and movies, where all you need is the ability to hear and see, video games require you to be skilled at them.

You forget sports, football, basketball, games like chess, etc. at least if you are participating instead of just watching.

I probably should have said "Artistic Mediums". I didn't include those because in my opinion, those aren't artistic mediums.

In order to make a proper judgement on a work you should preferably experience it in its entirety; listen to the whole song/watch the whole movie. As I said before, none of this requires much skill which means everyone can experience the work. Why should video games be any different?

The same reason either of us wouldn't watch football all day long and expect to have John Madden or whoever waltz into our houses and be offer an NFL contract without either of us having played a single game of football in our lives, or spontaneously gain achievements for Skyrim on our 360s for watching a let's play video on Youtube. Just like sports video games are something you have to EARN your way through, and there would be no point in doing either otherwise.

In my opinion, the message/story/themes behind the work is the most important thing, and that should always be experienced in its entirety. It also shouldn't be something that has to be earned or worked for in non-conceptual sense.

What I mean by that is that it's all well and good when you're reading a manuscript and you say: "The author's word choice is doing my head in, he's using words that usually mean one thing one thing but he's using them in a sentence to say the complete opposite. I don't get it."

It's not well and good when you're reading a manuscript and you say: "God dammit, I can barely read a word of this, the author's handwriting is terrible."

Anyway, the message/story/themes should be given to the viewer freely without fuss. I don't want to have to tear four fifths of my hair out in frustration because I died for the umpteenth time while fighting the same boss in order to experience the message/story/themes. I want it given to me ASAP so I can mull it over afterwards, pull it apart in my head, read the text and subtext and try to figure out which side I should be joining in the shipping wars.

Snip

What if difficulty, or the reason for difficulty, was essential to the experience of a video game though?

You make a good point, however, I would still argue for the inclusion of easy mode simply for acclimatisation. Get people to learn how to swim in the shallow end before they go into the deep end. That way they can experience the game without the hair rending frustration.

Snip

I see this as a false analogy. Viewing a painting only requires me to look at it, but that doesn't mean I understand it's meaning. Reading a book may only require me to open it up and look at the words, but that doesn't mean I automatically understand what's been written. Sure if it's Twilight, I might get it, but if it's a book on theories of thermodynamics or a book of Shakespeares plays written in their original English it's not a given that I'm going to understand it without further study, time and patience. Same with movies. I can watch any movie, but if it's an experimental piece or even something with a really complex plot I may not really understand it at all. The same goes with music. Put on some free form jazz. Everyone with the ability to hear will be able to hear the music, but some will experience it as noise they won't be able to sit through, some will hear amazing music.

The thing is, everything you mentioned all happens in the mind, you're tying to figure out the meaning of the painting/movie/song/book in your head. I should have also mentioned that I was only talking about artistic mediums, so your point about books about the theories of thermodynamics or a book of Shakespeare's plays written in their original English doesn't apply, since they're usually read for academic purposes.

The fact is, any entertainment medium is created by a person/team with a set vision and a set audience, and every medium contains numerous examples that are, quite frankly, not designed to be enjoyed by everyone. There's no reason that videogames should be any different.

You're completely right, but I still think that the thing that decides whether or not a person enjoys a work should be decided entirely in one's head. It should be because you don't agree with the message, or you didn't like the story, or that you believed that Richard and Door should have gotten together because they're perfect for each other AND WHY CAN'T ANYONE ELSE SEE IT?!

*Ahem*

So, in conclusion. The thing that decides what work people enjoy should be conceptual, rather than physical.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

Honestly, a lot of these people who whine about difficulty seem to be petty and just wanting their own personal "club" to be able to play it.

Case in point, the new XCOM game.

I'm playing it on Normal Ironman. And I'm having a BLAST. While it's not excessively hard, one small screw up can cost you the whole game. I lost 3 of my best units the other day due to 2 bad tactical decisions and it REALLY hurt. So there I am weighing tactical decisions and moving very very carefully and methodically...

And then half the topics on the steam community thing are people going "WAAAAAAH DEY DUMBED IT DOWN!!!!!!!!!11!!!1! SO ESY NO CHALLENGEDURRR CONSOLE TARDS DUMB DOWN DURRR NO NEED TO THINK!!!!". And when other players remind them that in the original game it was less about tactics than it was about counting how many time units it would take to make a move, and how you could just give every soldier any gun and tons of grenades and make EVERYONE kickass (new game randomly assigns "classes" that can only use specific weapons, and you have a VERY limited number of grenades), the whiners tell them that the new game isn't fun because it's "stupid" that you can't carry tons of grenades...despite the fact that it would make the game super easy, and they also say that the TUs made you "think", whereas the new game doesn't (which they never explain).

One guy, when faced with the argument of "Look, not all games need to have such complicated systems that you need to know how to run a nuclear power plant in order to play them (ie, Dwarf Fortress)", replied with "But unless it's like that it's boring and you don't even need to think, so it's for casualtards" (paraphrased). >_<

It's aggravating. XCOM EU is one of the most deep, tactical games I've played in a LONG LONG time. And yet so many people are whining because it made the game more accessible and easy to understand while still being deep. >_<

 

[girzwald]

snip

But didn't you read the posts from Korten? If they were to add an easy mode then they'd have to completely rebuild the game from the ground up! He said it over and over again so it must be true!

EDIT: Awh...quote snip fail

You're right. Saying something over and over again, or in all caps, makes it fact. I guess I'll have to break out the fact breaking "Nuh uh!"

I just hope he knows not the secret counter which is "uh huh!"

Blast, I typed it and my backspace and delete key are broken. O well.

 

[Jimothy Sterling]

Okay, fuck, one more thing I need to say:

Please remember how skilled you are. Those of you saying Dark Souls' appeal is its challenge, and that it would be ruined without the challenge there, remember that easy mode WOULD NOT BE FOR YOU. It would be for people who find normal *impossible*, and therefore could be readily challenged by an easy mode. Yes, easy mode might be too easy for you, but you're a longtime gamer -- not everybody is.

Again, this goes back to people acting like THEY'RE the ones playing on easy. It wouldn't be for you. You'd still have normal. Easy doesn't mean, "Beatable by anybody." It means easy as compared to the default experience. That can still be damn hard if your skill level is at such a point that Normal is too much for you. I know it can be tough to empathize with people who aren't you, but doing so may allow you to see the point I am making.

 

[WWmelb]

I don't have time for arguments this week, unfortunately, but let me just address some things briefly before flying off into the night. Once I've said this, I'm done on the topic for now, though I may need to do a new video after the holidays for those who spectacularly missed the point of the video:

The difference between an optional easy mode and the homogenization of videogames is as simple as the difference between Ninja Gaiden Black's "Ninja Dog" mode and Ninja Gaiden 3. One game had an optional extra mode for people who didn't want brutal challenge, and one tore the default experience apart.

Easy modes aren't a new concept, people. Capcom had some of the most hardcore action games around, and they actually offered you an easier mode if you had your ass kicked one too many times. Nobody complained about that. Nobody believes the core Devil May Cry 3 experience was ravaged by multiple difficulties. And frankly, it's pretty insulting to Dark Souls if you think ALL it has to offer the world is difficulty.

As for my attitude in this video ... uh ... welcome to the Jimquisition? Apparently it's okay for me to have this attitude when it's people you don't agree with -- not so now. Should I reshoot the video in a non-condescending "easy mode" format for you?

I know you said you weren't going to argue, and no, i don't necesarily mind the attack. It's just that reason behind the attack seemed remarkably flawed to me, and that you seemed to miss an extremely important point.

We loves the sarcasms and the what not, just seems you missed the pulse a bit here, so it came off as kind of.. well, self-deprecatingly ironic.

And, besides which, as many people have said, the core design of the entire world doesn't lend itself to be able to be done in "easy" mode without changing a hell of a lot of how the game is designed.

AND, had you played DS, you would realise how great a community it is that plays that game, and how welcoming we are to new/inexperienced/struggling players.

Gah edits:

And as i said in a post on page 1, it is mostly MOSTLY the imbalance of multiplayer that concerns me the most, and how hard and costly it would be to keep fair for everyone. Unless you just kept "easy mode" as offline play only, but then they are still missing a huge part of the game. It's just not that easy with Dark Souls, though i wish it were sometimes, because i love sharing my adventures in the world

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

It's amazing, Dark Souls probably has the most incredible and mature community out there with the worst reputation. People just make assumptions about us based on what we like.

Just by reading 4 pages of this thread, I can tell you that the reputation isn't undeserved. Thus far, people who would like an easier option in the game have been told "you just don't get it"

That doesn't sound like a big deal to me. I've been called an Elitist ass-hat, a douche, a brat, and all kinds of nasty things. Being told you don't "get" something by its fans is hardly comparable.

- like Dark Souls is some kind of philosophical abstract painting. This is the type of bogus thing said by hipsters when you tell them that something is boring and/or offensive to the eyes.

A philosophical abstract painting is exactly what Dark Souls is like to some of us. Even if we're wrong, how are you perceiving that as an attack? You have obviously made up your mind about this and don't want to know where we are coming from about it. You have decided our mindset is rooted in hipsterism, so why should you care if we get the shaft? We've got it coming, right? So it's hard to follow when you say what the game should be like. You know it will affect us, but you don't care, because you have something against us.

If you don't like our taste in art, fine, but you don't have to burn our paintings.

We've also been told that "the game's encounter design precludes an easy mode." Which is bogus in every way imaginable.

No it isn't. The reason we are able to have such a crafted, uncompromising experience is precisely because the experience is uniform and does not have to account for the needs of a split audience. What you are suggesting is like saying Civilization 6 HAS to have a fully featured golf simulator. And then you call us hipsters when we point out that is not compatible with the vision of the series we are already fans of.

Want to make the game easier without changing anything? Cut the damage done by enemies attacks by 1/2 and double the number of spells you can cast. Done. Now a single hit by a random zombie doesn't make that entire life forfeit.

That changes EVERYTHING. It doesn't work well for Skyrim and it's out of the question for Dark Souls. In practice, each encounter will have to be crafted for the needs of both modes and pretending they won't do that seems to me like denying the obvious. Are they going to leave Bed of Chaos the same with half damage? No. Iron Golem? No. Sen's Fortress traps? No. Lord Gwyn? No. They all need to be changed for the needs of the audience playing the easy mode.

In addition, what makes Ornstein and Smough so gripping on an EMOTIONAL level is the very fact that I CAN'T flip a switch and turn them into bunny rabbits. They are a MEANINGFUL obstacle as opposed to a TRIVIAL one of the players own creation. This game has dark themes of isolation, fear, and dread. Having obstacles that are ACTUAL obstacles supports those themes. It makes us feel we are having an EXPERIENCE, not just consuming a good. Why take that away from us? Could you not find any games that had easy mode in them?

Totally beside that, this guts the content of the game. Don't just think 'half damage = half difficult' because that is simplistic, and inaccurate. So your example is easier, but HOW is it easier? Does it reduce the need for lightning fast reflexes? No, there aren't any. Does it reduce the need for complicated builds? There aren't any. Complicated strategies? Nah. Precise aiming? Nope. Precise timing then? No. What you are actually doing in this case is eliminating the need for players to learn to overcome encounters and explore the mechanics by allowing them to proceed without learning. But that's the whole game! This is not comparable to easy mode in other games, this is comparable to designing the entire game of Starcraft to account for the needs of people who hate strategy! Dark Souls doesn't need an easy mode in the way that Starcraft doesn't need an FPS mode.

Just changing the stats and calling it a new difficulty mode is something people already complain about when developers do it. Your solution is not going to make anyone happy even if by some miracle the normal mode ended up unaffected (which is virtually impossible). What are all these easy mode players going to do? They'll be left with shitty, uneven encounters, half of which won't actually be any easier. They won't care about the story, or they will think it sucks, and they probably won't even know it's there. There will be no gameplay for them to speak of except what to them will seem like a clunky third person action game. There will be no cutscenes. Only a very short, very shitty action RPG with no story. No one is going to appreciate the easy mode once they have it.

This is a game with the tagline "PREPARE TO DIE". It is specifically designed around it's difficulty on a conceptual and mechanical level. One of the things you "don't get" is that Dark Souls is a difficulty game in a roughly equivalent sense that Starcraft is an RTS game. You are asking for a fundamentally different experience whether you realize it or not.

How can you people possibly deny that focusing on a single experience directed toward a focused audience frees up the developer in all sorts of ways? Everything about this game is dense and impenetrable and limiting and unique by design. It's fucking DARK SOULS. From Software is able to make it this way precisely because it is directed toward a particular niche. I don't understand why you are doing this. I didn't take YOUR toys away! What is even motivating you people to do this to me?! Is there an easy game shortage or something? Can't you just live and let live? Why can't there be a place in video games for people like me? I just don't get it.

I can understand wanting to keep the game the way you like it, but attacking people who find the game boring or aggravating (I'm in the latter category) is absolutely the wrong way to do so. And that is what Dark Souls' fan base has taken to doing.

That is an exact inversion of what is happening here. From Jim's video to this thread, Dark Souls fans are overwhelming being attacked and not the attackers. That's how it always is. But WE'RE the bad guys. /sigh

 

[anthony87]

snip

So then don't play the easy mode. Imagine if you will, that Dark Souls as it is now is actually the "Normal Mode" while there's also an OPTIONAL "Easy Mode" where you have extra health, bosses and enemies hit for less and you don't lose souls when you die. Sounds shite right? Then don't play it. Stick to "Normal Mode" let the people who aren't as good at the game play the "Easy Mode", everyone is happy.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

ITT: People who don't have even the tiniest bit of self-control and must pick "Easy Mode" no matter what.

What the fuck is wrong with so many of you guys? You really can't play a game on anything than the easiest difficulty? If that's the case, you don't have the right to complain about anything because you are the reason why games are dumbed down on a daily basis.

I don't remember the last time I played anything than the highest difficulty except when I was forced to. (who in the name of Princess Peach thought it's a good idea to force me to play trough Normal before unlocking Hard and than to play on Hard before unlocking Very Hard? Who is that persons? Why wasn't he burned to death already?)