Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

[Korten12]

You're right. Saying something over and over again, or in all caps, makes it fact. I guess I'll have to break out the fact breaking "Nuh uh!"

I just hope he knows not the secret counter which is "uh huh!"

Blast, I typed it and my backspace and delete key are broken. O well.

But didn't you read the posts from Korten? If they were to add an easy mode then they'd have to completely rebuild the game from the ground up! He said it over and over again so it must be true!

EDIT: Awh...quote snip fail

Good to know that my long and detailed posts get ignored. Because yeah it was all caps. Not like on the last page I went over the game and explained what would need to change. Nope I did not. Not at all. /sarcasm.

Okay, fuck, one more thing I need to say:

Please remember how skilled you are. Those of you saying Dark Souls' appeal is its challenge, and that it would be ruined without the challenge there, remember that easy mode WOULD NOT BE FOR YOU. It would be for people who find normal *impossible*, and therefore could be readily challenged by an easy mode. Yes, easy mode might be too easy for you, but you're a longtime gamer -- not everybody is.

Again, this goes back to people acting like THEY'RE the ones playing on easy. It wouldn't be for you. You'd still have normal. Easy doesn't mean, "Beatable by anybody." It means easy as compared to the default experience. That can still be damn hard if your skill level is at such a point that Normal is too much for you. I know it can be tough to empathize with people who aren't you, but doing so may allow you to see the point I am making.

Jim here is a repost of why an Easy Mode doesn't work. Not because people are not skilled:

Spoiler

Let me explain again... And again...

Okay since Dark Souls doesn't sub to any specific difficulty, it's levels aren't designed to scale, at the same time some parts of Dark Souls design isn't all just difficult. In games with difficulties it works like this:

Easy - Enemies have low health and reduce number
Normal - Enemies have medium health and medium number
Hard - Enemies have high health and large number.

Dark Souls isn't any of these. In most levels in Dark Souls there isn't many enemies, maybe in some parts but in most spots it's maybe two or three enemies. Lots of times it's even just a single enemy. At the same time enemies usually only take maybe 3 to 5 hits to kill, maybe slightly higher if your dps isn't high but then most likely your high speed or magic which then brings it down to 3 to 5 or even as low as 1 or 2 for magic depending on the level.

Only enemies which have lots of health are usually optional enemies or are alone. Not enough times are they with a group to justify changing this. So increasing health and dps and you would be literally pressing X to win.

Checkpoints - There is enough bonfires, sometimes there isn't many because of checkpoints. Like in Sen's Fortress, there is only two, one at the top and bottom. But Sen's Fortress is also very small, and when you get to the top, as long as you get the key, there is a checkpoint that goes from the top to the bottom and vice versa.

In Undead Parish - Three checkpoints, but the first also counts as two because once you get past the dragon you drop down a ladder and you can reuse that same bonfire. Not to mention the checkpoint past the dragon (optional) and then the one right next to Sen's Fortress, Blacksmith, and the Forest. The same checkpoint that is less than a minute before the boss of Undead Parish.

And so on... All the checkpoints are placed near shortcuts, you just need to look around and find them. It's not hard. More so if you start with the Master Key and you can literally skip all of Blight Town, the Depths, and the ground floor of Undead Parish. Also you can get some items to easily kill the first boss (not the tutorial fight.)

Also you can then summon players in to help you, if that isn't enough there is some NPCs you can hire at any time to help you with the bosses. Once you also get half way through the game you can begin to teleport between bonfires, which they increased how many you can teleport to with the recent DLC/patch.

There is so many ways to make the game easier, and you have a whole community willing to help. Dark Souls is like that and you shouldn't be ashamed to have to search it.

And if you want another explination here is the video by ENB:

 

[BioRex]

Going to throw in my two cents as a dark souls fan, even if I have yet to beat the game.
Firstly people keep comparing dark souls to the like of DMC, NG, and such, however this comparison does not work. In those games the difficulty comes from reaction times and performing combos well, this is a skill that lends itself well to a difficulty curve based on ones personally reaction time, I for one could beat Bayonetta on normal but the first stage of hard cleaved my ass in half because my reactions were to slow.
In Dark Souls however reaction times is not the main cause of difficulty, at least not the main cause. In that game its very much slow and steady wins the race. If one goes slowly and/or is paranoid (in my case) you do better for it. If you are in the mindset that there is something bad around every corner then you are not taken by surprise nearly as often then if you ran in guns blazin'. Also for those that have not had the chance to play let me give examples of why increases your health or lowering the enemies would not change the difficulty much. In the game there is a place called sens fortress that houses many classic traps, blades pendulums, boulders, spike traps, and so on. These traps can kill you, pendulums mostly, no matter how much hp you have because they knock you off ledges. Another part of the game has archers with bloody big ass bows that kill you because they knock you off ledges. Areas that have poison and low visibility because its a swamp, enemies that can curse you, and so on. Its the basic fundamentals of the game that people need to learn that keep them alive, when I play I always remember to top off my health if even a quarter lower then full, because I know that something dangerous could be just around the corner and if I get cocky my ass will get turned to paste quickly.
Also another point to bring up, this game has a leveling system and weapon/armor upgrade system, if the game is giving you trouble you can just level up a bit or get better weapons, or just summon a friend.
Also another reason that DS does not work with an easy mode is that dying is a part of the game, in many games you dying resets the world like it never happened. In DK thats not the case, there is an in-game explanation as to why you keep re-spawning, its part of the very core of the game, you are an undead who does not die, you keep coming back.
Also to those that make the point that an easy mode would not effect the "hardcore" fans, beside the obvious fact that it would take time and money away from other parts of the game, the reason we are up in arms is at least in my case fear, and something quite legitimate. How many times have we seen games start hard and get easier as time goes by and they simplify things more and more. How many hard games, games made to be hard not just hard on accident, are there left? While there plenty of challenges in games few are made for the core purpose of being challenging. Thats why we get concerned when the idea of an easy mode is thrown around without thought, we have seen this song and dance before and we don't want one of the last "hard" games to fall like many before.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

A fair argument. Simple solution, lock the difficulty in (or only let it move up from the initial setting). I'm not sure what the encoutner bits about.

I appreciate the suggestion because it seems like you're trying to account for my needs and meet me half way. Unfortunately, it doesn't really solve the problem on my end. What I'm asking for is tension, genuine apprehension and fear on an emotional level. Emotionally, knowing that I could have turned Gaping Dragon into a bunny rabbit isn't very different from knowing that I still can.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there is a way around this. What I'm asking for can't be faked. I would feel the difference.

Rather then bloat the post, I've spoiler tagged my brief summary of Dark Souls below which actually does contain praise.

Spoiler

I actually found the premise interesting, and the lore sort of interesting (albeit rather limited, unless it ups itself at some point after Blightown, where I dropped off the game). On the other side, theres a fair amount of glitches (Attacks going through walls, getting enemies stuck in walls), hideous AI (Luring/Kiting, also the hilarious tendency to be able to trick them into power attacking off a cliff, and one guy I killed by running circles in a stairwell cause my armor was light enough to avoid the fall damage), and stuff that makes the game seem dated or poorly made like getting stopped up on a shin height tree root or piece of rubble or homing arrows that curve in midair). And the main determinator in my dropping the game off was the Gaping Dragon, where it was basically defeated in spirit 3 minutes in when I figured out how to take it on, but the battle was artificially extended to 20some minutes by raw HP inflation.

Spoiler

Ah, Blighttown. It doesn't seem so bad once you know the tricks and have been through it a few times. But that first time is a killer lol. I also found Gaping Dragon too easy to figure out. The boss battle AI definitely needs work for the sequel. It takes some doing to kill him, but you probably could have made things easier by upgrading your weapons. I'm not so much criticizing you as saying I think that is why Gaping Dragon has so much health.

Artists put their paintings in public museums, they don't put it up in a tower you have to scale. I can't think of a musician that recorded his music on 6 copies (I'e handed out a least 1000 tapes and I'm not even a signed artist) and said "Whatever, thats enough". Books are published and sold to whoever buys them. Granted, the difficulty (or perception thereof) doesn't explicitly prevent anyone from playing the game, but I can understand that whoever wants more people to enjoy their work.

And game franchises frequently sell out their existing fan-base in favor of the kinds of people who won't play Dark Souls unless it has an easy mode. I'm not making a profit from this, I just want the best game I can have. I don't think it makes any sense to add easy mode to Dark Souls but leave it in it's current, impenetrable-as-a-feature, state. If this were any other game, of course, add easy mode. Obviously. But this is a difficulty game in the sense that Halo is an FPS.

I can't help but think the only reason you are saying all this is because you think I don't want everyone to play Dark Souls. That is backward. But I want everyone to appreciate it for what it is, not turn it into Madden or Devil May Cry or something I don't even recognize. I think the niche that actually appreciates Dark Souls for what it is deserves to have a game every few years. I don't feel like I'm asking a lot or making an imposition on anybody.

Dark Souls is a parody of the game industry. It's literally a reaction to easy, spoon-feeding games. The idea of wanting to put an easy mode in makes my head explode. I can't wrap my mind around the presumption of people who don't like it and don't care about it telling the fans what kind of game it should be. People should play whatever the fuck it is they play and leave me alone.

 

[anthony87]

snip

I didn't ignore your post, I just disregarded it because I think it's really really wrong. I'm not trying to mean that in an asshole-ish way or anything but if you think that making the game easier would involve completely redesigning and rebuilding it then you're wrong. Just because you're saying that such and such would need to change doesn't actually mean that such and such would need to change.

 

[Korten12]

snip

I didn't ignore your post, I just disregarded it because I think it's really really wrong. I'm not trying to mean that in an asshole-ish way or anything but if you think that making the game easier would involve completely redesigning and rebuilding it then you're wrong. Just because you're saying that such and such would need to change doesn't actually mean that such and such would need to change.

How is it wrong? You don't give examples all you say is: "IT's WRONG BECAUSE... WELL IT'S WRONG."

We have explained nearly essays of work that cover any corner of why it doesn't work and then we get responses like yours that don't even try to argue but just ignore it and say that it's wrong without reason. You say we're smug but don't even both to actually debate.

 

[BioRex]

snip

I didn't ignore your post, I just disregarded it because I think it's really really wrong. I'm not trying to mean that in an asshole-ish way or anything but if you think that making the game easier would involve completely redesigning and rebuilding it then you're wrong. Just because you're saying that such and such would need to change doesn't actually mean that such and such would need to change.

Ok so how would taking less damage help against swinging blades that knock you off ledges? Giant arrows that do the same? What about if you went to an area with poison, swamp lets say, and you had no antidote type items? would taking less or giving more damage help?

 

[girzwald]

snip

Once again, you saying OMG IT WONT WORK. Does not make it true. Look, I'm sorry you think that because we were not all swayed by your long, drawn out and "well thought out" post. Just because we don't agree with it, doesn't mean we didn't read it.

No duh a bunch of the game would have to be reworked. But not really all that much work since the core game play is all there. Some things would simple, some things would be a bit complex. But no, sorry, the entire game would not be broken if it were easier or more forgiving.

 

[BioRex]

snip

Once again, you saying OMG IT WONT WORK. Does not make it true. Look, I'm sorry you think that because we were not all swayed by your long, drawn out and "well thought out" post. Just because we don't agree with it, doesn't mean we didn't read it.

No duh a bunch of the game would have to be reworked. But not really all that much work since the core game play is all there. Some things would simple, some things would be a bit complex. But no, sorry, the entire game would not be broken if it were easier or more forgiving.

Ok here is my question, would you be willing to pay 10-20 bucks more for the easy version to offset the cost it takes to make the easy version?

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

snip

Once again, you saying OMG IT WONT WORK. Does not make it true. Look, I'm sorry you think that because we were not all swayed by your long, drawn out and "well thought out" post. Just because we don't agree with it, doesn't mean we didn't read it.

No duh a bunch of the game would have to be reworked. But not really all that much work since the core game play is all there. Some things would simple, some things would be a bit complex. But no, sorry, the entire game would not be broken if it were easier or more forgiving.

I'm very interested to know what you think "the core game play" of Dark Souls is.

Also, you're just reaffirming Korten12's point. If he is wrong you should be able to tell him why. But posts like this make it seem like you haven't given the matter a moment's thought.

 

[girzwald]

snip

I didn't ignore your post, I just disregarded it because I think it's really really wrong. I'm not trying to mean that in an asshole-ish way or anything but if you think that making the game easier would involve completely redesigning and rebuilding it then you're wrong. Just because you're saying that such and such would need to change doesn't actually mean that such and such would need to change.

Ok so how would taking less damage help against swinging blades that knock you off ledges? Giant arrows that do the same? What about if you went to an area with poison, swamp lets say, and you had no antidote type items? would taking less or giving more damage help?

Easy mode doesn't just mean less damage. And nobody said something like "omg just half the damage and bam, its an easy mode". So really, your argument is nothing but a strawman.

But let me tackle your omg can't be fixed in easy mode mechanics.............ummm.......... oh ghosh. How would one deal with knokbacks that knock you off ledges oh, I dunno, remove/nerf the knockback? And a swamp... hmmmmmm, remove the poison? Make it do less damage? Make it wear off fast?

My god, I'm a genius game designer.

 

[Korten12]

snip

Once again, you saying OMG IT WONT WORK. Does not make it true. Look, I'm sorry you think that because we were not all swayed by your long, drawn out and "well thought out" post. Just because we don't agree with it, doesn't mean we didn't read it.

No duh a bunch of the game would have to be reworked. But not really all that much work since the core game play is all there. Some things would simple, some things would be a bit complex. But no, sorry, the entire game would not be broken if it were easier or more forgiving.

I'm very interested to know what you think "the core game play" of Dark Souls is.

I am starting to think there is no point. :/ I know you are also on the side of "No Easy Mode," and how do you feel about my posts? Are they helping or am I just as they're saying. Just saying: "OMG IT WONT WORK."

 

[RobfromtheGulag]

I was afraid that the flames had died down and the rancor from a few months back with the proposition of an Easy Dark Souls had abaited. I'm glad to see this is not the case, and this thread isn't full of people simply congratulating Jim on another episode. That's nice and all, but the circlejerks get a little tiring after awhile.

Now to read some of the posts vainly arguing that being hard is what makes Dark Souls a real man's game. Or maybe not in vain, seeing as the producers have yet to do anything.

A senior friend in school once told me that Japanese games have no easy mode. They simply add it to the US port because they know we can't handle it. This is very likely a lie, but that stuck with me and I have yet to play a game on less than medium. I do not begrudge people playing games on easy however, and I do not go out of my way to play 'hard' games. If that's one of its selling points, odds are I'll avoid it.

 

[Church185]

Dark Souls already has an easy mode, it's called playing online and summoning a sunbro.

Engage in jolly cooperation!!

EDIT: For those who haven't played the game or that far into it because of the supposed difficulty, there is a special guild in the game for people like me called sunbros. Our soul purpose is to help others and make their experience better/easier and we are rewarded for it. I do my job faithfully and with glee.

 

[girzwald]

Ok here is my question, would you be willing to pay 10-20 bucks more for the easy version to offset the cost it takes to make the easy version?

False premise. Who would say it would cost 10-20 bucks in addition to the person BUYING THE GAME in order to make it cost effective to make an easy mode?

So no, I would NOT pay 10-20 bucks for an easy version of the game because it would not cost that much to produce an easy mode for a already made game.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

the core game play is learn from your mistakes and the feeling of overcoming a challenge all would not be present with easy mode...I ask again, If you don't like it why do you feel like you are misding out so much you would rather break it for those who do like it than play something else?

The extent to which this topic has been distorted, inverted, and turned on it's head is just crazy. The people who have pretty much taken over gaming and kicked us out of the club are acting like they're the victims of our aggression at the very moment they are storming our last bastion.

 

[Church185]

Ok here is my question, would you be willing to pay 10-20 bucks more for the easy version to offset the cost it takes to make the easy version?

False premise. Who would say it would cost 10-20 bucks in addition to the person BUYING THE GAME in order to make it cost effective to make an easy mode?

So no, I would NOT pay 10-20 bucks for an easy version of the game because it would not cost that much to produce an easy mode for a already made game.

But what of the newer games in the series? Wasting the time and money on an easier mode in that game that could have gone to making the existing formula better for the established audience. You know, those people that helped make the game infamous and successful in the first place?

 

[Professor Uzzy]

In my opinion, the message/story/themes behind the work is the most important thing, and that should always be experienced in its entirety. It also shouldn't be something that has to be earned or worked for in non-conceptual sense.

What I mean by that is that it's all well and good when you're reading a manuscript and you say: "The author's word choice is doing my head in, he's using words that usually mean one thing one thing but he's using them in a sentence to say the complete opposite. I don't get it."

It's not well and good when you're reading a manuscript and you say: "God dammit, I can barely read a word of this, the author's handwriting is terrible."

Anyway, the message/story/themes should be given to the viewer freely without fuss. I don't want to have to tear four fifths of my hair out in frustration because I died for the umpteenth time while fighting the same boss in order to experience the message/story/themes. I want it given to me ASAP so I can mull it over afterwards, pull it apart in my head, read the text and subtext and try to figure out which side I should be joining in the shipping wars.

The message of Dark Souls, the theme of Dark Souls.. that's given to you VIA the mechanics. Why are people like you so desperate to utterly ignore the interactive nature of gaming, the thing that makes it near-unique among artistic mediums and just treat gaming like a movie, or a manuscript?

The mechanics of a game are just as valid a way for the themes of the game to come across as the art design, the sound design or the storyline. The brutal nature of the game, of the mechanics in Dark Souls, they teach you something about the world.

By means of counter example, I give you Halo. Now, in the Halo storyline, the UNSC forces are being hammered on all fronts and on the verge of losing the war. Yet, if you play on the easiest difficulty, you can walk into the enemy forces and massacre them. There is a dissonance between the gameplay and the storyline that is being told. This sort of thing is, at the moment, very common in gaming.

Dark Souls doesn't do that. It's very rare among gaming in that the mechanics of the game and the storyline compliment one another. The world of Dark Souls is brutal, unforgiving and solely dying. The mechanics of Dark Souls are brutal, unforgiving.. and you'll die a lot.

Please, stop trying to destroy this almost unique example of mechanics and storyline working in harmony.

Now, as a secondary point, if you do find the game too difficult, then get better at it. There are countless wikis and videos out there designed to help people out, all created by the Dark Souls fanbase. If you're stuck on a boss, summon aid.. again, that's the Dark Souls fanbase helping out new players. We WANT people to be able to experience this wonderful game, but we don't want to lose what's wonderful about it in the process. If that's an example of elitism, then I'll wear that label proudly.