Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

[Korten12]

People fear Dark Souls getting an Easy Mode because they feel it would remove difficulty from future games as developers feel the need to cater to the casual market who wouldn't want to play a difficult game.

this of course is wrong as developers pretty much start at the hardest difficulty as "how the game should be played" then dial down enemies for lesser difficulties. People who hate the idea of easy mode feel as though easy mode is destroying games.

which is also wrong. I remember easy mode as far back as Doom (and possibly even existed before that). So if Easy Mode was going to destroy video games as a medium, it would have happened a long time ago. You people need to just calm down.

Thing is though, Dark souls really isn't hard. No really it's not. The enemies usually don't have that much health, the game isn't that long, all it takes is patience.

But here is the thing, Easy mode for Doom is not the same as Easy mode for Dark Souls. If you take difficulty out of Dark souls what do you have? A very mediorce Action-RPG with little to no story (at least not straight to the point), and that's it. You literally suck the soul out of the game.

Doom on easy? It's an FPS which adjusts well to easy mode and still is enjoyable.

 

[shrekfan246]

Shouldn't "elitist" apply to the behavior of a person, rubbing superiority in your face, as opposed to simply being happy that they're in a small club that requires skill and sacrifice?

The issue, however, is that the people who feel "happy that they're in a small club that requires skill and sacrifice" (we're still talking about video games here, right?) often "rub superiority in your face", as if they're better than everyone else because they're in this "small club".

And then tell everyone else that if they can't harden up and just be better at video games, they shouldn't be allowed to "enter" this "club".

That's elitism. And that's the problem. As soon as you start actively excluding people because they're "just not good enough", you're succumbing to elitism.

Tangentially related, I find it hilarious that the people who want gaming to remain a small niche hobby will simultaneously bash "hipsters" for liking things that aren't "mainstream".

OT: I actually had a discussion about this with a fellow Bro a few days ago. If they implement an "Easy" mode and it has no direct impact on the normal difficulty of the game, which means I'll still get the "true" experience if I don't select the Easy mode, then I have absolutely no issues with it.

For Dark Souls specifically, I'm not really sure how they could actually make it much easier outside of reducing the amount of damage enemies do. The game is as much about being aware of your surroundings as it is actually taking down enemies, and there are very, very few enemies that really take more than two or three swings provided you're upgrading your weapons accordingly to the location you're at. Bosses are the only true "damage sponges", and even some of them don't take too long (Pinwheel comes to mind). If they change how perilous the environments are... well, that's not even really an issue of "dumbing down", it's just an issue of the developer being dumb. The environments are a huge part of what make the Souls games what they are.

 

[Mortamus]

*Sees that Jim posted a video about why hating casual gamers is dumb*

Initial reaction [http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfzpkiB3LC1qafrh6.gif]

I must say I'm rather tired of this trend. I just don't understand why it's a problem when an easy mode is added, but not when the game already comes with an easy mode. I don't recall seeing this kind of hate for games like DDR or Guitar Hero because there were play modes that required little to no effort from a hardcore gamer.I don't recall those play experiences being ruined by that either. I use these two games as an example, as like Dark Souls, they have a unique play style. However, even when any of us were trying to get good on playing expert, we didn't get mad when we failed and feel pressured to drop to a lower difficulty. No, what do we do? We beat it. Why? Cause we're gamers, and the games don't beat us.

 

[Callate]

I agree it may be silly to spite others for getting an "easy" mode, but especially in the case of something like Dark Souls, I do kind of get it.

Imagine you started work at a crappy fast food restaurant at $6.00 an hour. After four years of smiling at hateful people who want a refund because there's an onion ring in their french fries box, with a raise of a $0.25 a year, your hard work pays off, and you move into a management position at $9.00 an hour.

Three months later, central management announces that now all entry-level positions are going to make $9.00 an hour. And you and everyone is still going to get the lousy $0.25 raise. How do you feel about that four years you put in?

Probably pretty pissed off. And you might try to justify it, saying that your experience is worth so much more, no matter what central management may imply with the new wage structure. That these entry-level Johnny-come-latelies are somehow inferior, despite their getting exactly the same reward for their work that you get for yours. It's the journey, dammit, not the destination, and your journey was so much more meaningful than theirs.

In fairness, there might even be something to be said for that point of view. Our foolish human nature is such that if we pay twice as much for something, we may enjoy it more through pure expectation. And we certainly appreciate a handful of crackers more after running a marathon than we do a five-course banquet after dragging our butts off of a beanbag chair.

But that, alone, isn't reason enough to get apoplectic about easy modes.

 

[Ryan Hughes]

Only playing Demon's Souls, I cannot comment directly on Dark Souls, but I liken the difficulty to this:

Mega Man vs. Ninja Gaiden. In Mega Man, you had a real challenge, but it seems that every time you die, you learn a bit more and push a bit further, and eventually even at the age of seven, I was able to beat the game. Ninja Gaiden was still a great game, but I never felt like I was getting further or pushing ahead at all. Often I would make negative progress between deaths. And that, to me at least, was very frustrating.

So, bringing an Easy Mode to Dark Souls to bring it down to the level of Mega Man is actually very appealing to me. I assure you "harcore" fans that this will in no way make the game more casual, just more accessible to people like myself who love games, but just do not have the time or energy to invest in a game with such punishing difficulty.

 

[blackdwarf]

Although I do agree with the episode, I don't think think Dark Souls was the proper example for this, because the difficulty in that game plays a bigger role in the overall design. If we would get a easy mode in that game one thing that certainly will happen is the splitting of the online community. which will lessen the overall experience of the game, because of the smaller presence in the game of your fellow players.

What also is possible is that many of the mechanics in the game become obsolete, because you don't need them anymore to beat the game. MP, weapon upgrades, armor upgrades and more work and are interesting because they help you beat the game. If the game doesn't give you an incentive to get those, because the game is not giving you any difficulty, then you are missing a huge part of the game.

and don't get me wrong, I would love to see more people play this franchise, but an easy mode will not give them the same experience that is scaled for their skill. With the recent announcement of DS II, the developers already said they want to make this game more accessible. I hope they mean with that, that they want to explain their mechanics better. that is the biggest of flaw DS: the lack of explaining the mechanics, which made it Difficult for many people at the start of the game.

 

[Eternal_Lament]

My logic is this:

If easy mode is put into Dark Souls 2, I will still play the game, just on the standard hard difficulty. The existence of an easy mode does not bother me, and in fact there are just some certain things that should be fixed difficulty wise, regardless if easy mode is actually available. The tutorials could easily be improved, especially in regards to teaching players what things such as poise or humanity actually do. Dark Souls was one of my favorite games to come out last year, and even I didn't know what these things did until I went online. So I do agree that there are indeed some difficulty issues that are just inexcusable or have no real added challenge. That said, easy mode in the CURRENT VERSION of Dark Souls wouldn't actually work that well

Simply put, many of the level designs, enemy encounters, and item placements and such are designed in such a way that it anticipates the player playing on the current hard difficulty or above. If there was an easy mode put into the game now as it is, players would probably beat the game in 5-6 hours. And that's what worries me about easy mode in a game that wasn't designed to anticipate such a mode. Sure, more people will pick it up and play, but if they beat the game and don't see the big appeal to it then I feel a little disappointed that another player wasn't able to enjoy what it is I enjoy in the game. Now, if the current version of Dark Souls got a major overhaul or if Dark Souls 2 designs itself in such a way where both the traditional hard mode and easy mode can give players a sense of power and enjoyment, then I say bring on easy mode.

 

[Airon]

The sound of the show is getting better and better. Well done.

Thumbs up on the conclusions as well. I pick my difficulties based on my experience in the genre, and do not wish (bad amounts of)frustration on any gamer because there isn't a difficulty suited to their level of experience.

We were all once casuals and probably are in some genres.

 

[blackrave]

Kinda of like what they did with the new XCOM game. The original was DEVILISHLY DIFFICULT and just plain unfair at times...where as the new one, I see it as more ACCESSIBLE than DUMBED DOWN. I played it in comparison to the old one and found it to be more fun to play...

Easy difficulty maybe, but anything above easy is not "accessible"
So there still are options for those masochists who can't afford dominatrix
(hardest difficulty+Iron man mode)
Although for all fairness while XCom:EU is like dominatrix with a whip, XCom:UFO defense is more like a torture chamber filled with violent gimps and trained animals
(so yeah, some difficulty drop happened, but it isn't necessary bad thing)

The best way to make sure everybody have a game they want is to allow mods
Take for example TES5:Skyrim
There are mods that increases difficulty so much a skeever coughing in your general direction will make you die instantly
And there are mods that makes your character a unstoppable force (although "very easy" difficulty already does this)
So once again to mod is always better than not to mod

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

Really now Jim?
This is getting ridiculous even for you.
Most recent videos have been nothing but the same argument about varying things over and over again and its getting REALLY old.
Could you just please put some effort into a future video that isnt filled with your rambling about the same kind of bullshit argument i hear on a daily basis:
*Oh, it doesnt affect you, so why do you care?
*Oh, you already have access to what you want without being interfered by something else, so why do you care?
*Oh, this thing may or may not have a negative impact on the gaming community, but lets for argument sake say it doesnt, then why would you care?

I mean fucking hell Jim, youre a broken record by now.

How is he any less of a broken record than the gaming community as a whole? His shows are topical (aka: They're based on what's going on currently), so if he's getting drawl and repetitive, it's because the gaming community is getting drawl and repetitive with the things they ***** about.

 

[Mortamus]

These discussions are too often plagued with people who haven't adequately studied challenge and balancing in video games, and how they affect the quality of the product. It's not an easy thing to grasp in the slightest, and I'm sick of you know-it-alls making light of it.

Clearly you're not this person. Google core aesthetics of video games. People play games for a variety of different reasons. Someone could play a game for the challenge. Someone for the sense of exploration. And so on. It's entirely possible that a game could deliver challenge for one person and exploration or another depending on the setting that are selected.

Game design theory wouldn't need to exist at all then, according to you. Every game could simply be a mash-up of every conceivable genre, from sandbox to puzzle to shooter, and players could just be expected to find their own parts to like. I bet that would work out just swell.

Oh wait no, it fucking wouldn't. There's already been trash games like that released in the last couple of years, and none of them lighted the world on fire.

It does work out swell. Game design revolves around delivering on those core aesthetics.

Take Skyrim for example (that light the gaming world on fire). I play on the hardest difficulty with a build that's tailored to not be overpowered. My girlfriend plays on normal mode with a pretty kick ass build. The two of us are playing for different core aesthetics. She's all about exploration and narrative (ie the lore ie reading in-game books all the time) and doesn't want challenge to get in the way. I'm more about challenge and expression while exploration and narrative take a back seat.

You really don't know what you're talking about.

You completely failed to comprehend the issue that I addressed and instead illogically responded to some imaginary post you made up in your head. Or at least I'm struggling to hope for it. If you honestly believe that SKYRIM of all games is the masterful creation in question where all its different aspects and mechanics are not only as perfect as in games that SPECIALIZE in them, but also somehow work in perfect haromy without interfering with or taking away from one another, you're a total fucking imbecile, my forum warnings regarding civil behavior be damned. You just revealed that it's YOU who has no fucking idea what he's talking about in the slightest, and conceded that YES, game design theory is apprarently totally obsolete. You're a moron who's not worth my time.


On an unrelated note, the Mario example mentioned in the video is a good way to go about things, though obviously Mario games are not hardcore. This is key.

Whoa, ease up there buddy. He isn't saying that games need to have a little bit of everything, he's saying that not every one person plays the same game for the same reason. His point is that someone may want to play Dark Souls on easy to experience it's story without having to suffer the wrath of it's difficulty, while others like us want to beat the insane challenge of it's higher difficulties.

Rather than go on a rant about game design, I would invite you to watch the latest episode of Extra Credits [http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/aesthetics-of-play] related to this exact topic.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I'm sure this post will bite me in the ass, but the last few episodes of Jimquisition have been nothing but "You gamers are upset about something; How dare you, you whiny little bastards." I'm sorry, but it's starting to get a bit condescending.

And you might've wanted to play Dark Souls first before stating that adding an easy mode wouldn't matter. It's easy to generalize everyone in the "no easy mode" camp as bitchy, hardcore elitists.

 

[Mortrialus]

[
Whoa, ease up there buddy. He isn't saying that games need to have a little bit of everything, he's saying that not every one person plays the same game for the same reason. His point is that someone may want to play Dark Souls on easy to experience it's story without having to suffer the wrath of it's difficulty, while others like us want to beat the insane challenge of it's higher difficulties.

Rather than go on a rant about game design, I would invite you to watch the latest episode of Extra Credits [http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/aesthetics-of-play] related to this exact topic.

While Dark Souls has a very rich lore, it's just as inaccessible as the rest of the game. The story of Dark Souls is pieced together from item descriptions, the scarce dialog from NPCs and just observing your surroundings. A player playing on a mode designed for everyone to complete the game, without the repeat deaths and trial and error, is going to blaze through the game and not even know it's there.

 

[scw55]

Nothing wrong with adding an easy mode, as long as it's optional.

Diablo 3 had the critical mistake of forcing you through difficulties.
I like games that let you change the difficulty mid-game as well.

 

[Mortamus]

The story of Dark Souls is pieced together from item descriptions, the scarce dialog from NPCs and just observing your surroundings. A player playing on a mode designed for everyone to complete the game is going to blaze through the game and not even know it's there.

I don't really see how you would miss all of that on a lower difficulty. The items, NPCs, and surroundings will still be there. :/

 

[Korten12]

The story of Dark Souls is pieced together from item descriptions, the scarce dialog from NPCs and just observing your surroundings. A player playing on a mode designed for everyone to complete the game is going to blaze through the game and not even know it's there.

I don't really see how you would miss all of that on a lower difficulty. The items, NPCs, and surroundings will still be there. :/

And the game would be very medicore. I think people don't get that. Without the difficulty (which isn't that hard, just need to be patience), the would have nothing to stand out aside from being dark fantasy. The game on easy could be beaten in 5 hours to 7 hours tops. Hell on the current difficulty it can be beaten that fast.

 

[deathzero021]

Now i agree with optional modes being OK. they don't annoy me because they don't effect my experience. i also don't mind games trying to widen the audience a little.

however i also believe that it's gone WAY too far. It's come to the point where sequels of a franchise no longer have ANYTHING in common with the initial titles of the series. It's so bad that gameplay mechanics have become simpler and less enjoyable as well, or changed altogether giving a completely different experience than what the experienced players want.

So why is this a problem? because this isn't opening the doors for everyone to play, this is kicking out the current players and bringing in a larger and easier to market demographic in are place. It's replacing us. This is happening because it's easier to appeal to the casual market and it makes more money. Takes less work, it's a big win for them, and a huge loss for old school gamers.

This is why i barely like most games today. They're too simple, too easy and provide no real challenge or excitement at all. They are not engaging in the way that i enjoy, such as actually having to learn a new system and master it to play the game effectively.

Now it isn't all bad, there are SOME games that provide good options for both demographics, however MOST games don't do this well. It's not as simple as adding Hard mode and Easy mode to a game.

The game has to be completely re-designed for each mode. Simply changing the HP of the enemies or their ATK isn't enough. that doesn't provide more challenge for the hardcore gamers. The simple AI and weak level design are still boring to an experienced player like myself. Want an example? Darksiders on Hard mode is still a very easy game. The patterns, AI and level design does not change at all, it still reflects that "wide demographic" style of Easy mode. So basically the game was not made with experienced gamers in mind and the Hard mode was lazily slapped in the at the last second.

To summarize my over-sized post:
i think it's a great idea to try and appeal to a larger audience BUT it should never come at the cost of losing your fanbase.

 

[StriderShinryu]

It's already been stated numerous times in this thread, so I don't feel any need to go into a lengthy explanation, but anyone who wants an easy mode in Dark Souls doesn't understand Dark Souls (and, quite possibly, hasn't even really played it).

I also find it rather funny that, in a time when we're talking about games that have artistic merit and where we value the work of specific developers/teams, there are still gamers who believe that games should be one size fits all and that the game experience should not be as put forward by the developer but should instead be solely centered around what the player wants. This doesn't happen in any other entertainment medium with an artistic bent.. at all. Books, movies, music, paintings, etc. None of them have easy modes if you don't understand them. None of them really have people saying that their enjoyment of the work should come before artist intention. And yet, with games, they do.

 

[Mortrialus]

I don't really see how you would miss all of that on a lower difficulty. The items, NPCs, and surroundings will still be there. :/

Because why would anyone playing the game on an easy mode where they're guaranteed to beat the game without understanding the basic mechanics, isn't going to look at / care about other items when they're already set up with a winning strategy. If they're told exactly where to go, they aren't going to talk to NPCs. And if they aren't spending a lot of time in an area, they aren't going to notice the details of the varying levels.

The difficulty from Dark Souls doesn't come from the technical skill required to beat the game. It comes from the knowledge base required to beat the game.