Jimquisition: Early Access

SoulChaserJ

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Sep 21, 2009
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I usually hate Jim, but I had to watch this episode because it's something I totally agree with him on. Early access is not a bad idea it's being put into bad practice by far too many. I'd still rather have a funding round with some sort of prequel/demo than the "full" product.. But that's my opinion.
 

Vrach

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Jun 17, 2010
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One important thing I think a lot of people are missing with these Eearly access games that are paid for.

How long do you guys tend to play a single game? Discounting MMOs that I've been able to play for years (and even that was with me in high school, with tons of time on my hands), most of the games I play can at most hold my interest for some 2 months. At most. A few games are exception to that, but most are either multiplayer (usually with DLC) or completely built around replayability, like the Civilization series. Even there though, there's only so much I can play of the game before I just get bored and booting it up again is something that may happen once in 6-12 months.

With that in mind, why in the world would I pay for an unfinished game that's going to be finished several months from now at the earliest? I'd be setting myself up for one of two things - one, that the game is shit in it's state, unplayable and I've wasted money on it. It could possibly even tar the experience for me enough not to bother to install it again (or at least not enjoy it as much when I do) when it does get finished.

And two, that the game is playable and enjoyable enough in it's current state, in which case I'm paying the same price, possibly even a higher one, to play an unfinished product now and not have any interest in it once it's complete. That's a trade-off of quality for time of delivery that the gaming community has a high tendency to rage on about... so why the fuck do it willingly?

So imo, it's a lose-lose situation for the consumer, even if the game is actually playable in Early Access. I appreciate that it makes it easier on the developer and that's cool, but again, in it's shiniest moments, assuming it's not a game you're gonna play for years (and for an indie game, that's highly unlikely [not impossible though]), you're paying for an unfinished product to get it early.
 

gamegod25

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Early Access is one of those things like DLC that is a good idea but sadly easy to corrupt and abuse. Being able to support, test, and even influence the development is great for indie games. There are hidden gems that really are worth playing and even putting money down for...the problem is all the metric tons of games that are shit and overpriced.

All I can say is do your research first and only pay for early access if you trust them to deliver a worthwhile game. Especially if they are charging $30 or more, for that price they better justify it.
 

DTWolfwood

Better than Vash!
Oct 20, 2009
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I've looked at early access as the same as kickstarter. you pay upfront for a product based solely on promises. At the least Early Access (ea) gives you something tangible to play.

Early access buyers know its a choice to put money down on an incomplete game. This is why there aren't anyone getting angry.

Every time i put money down on something i have hopes for, i am fully aware the risk in it and is willing to forgo the money.

4 Kickstarters, 3 Early Access, and 1 soft launch later, i'd like to believe i have enough self control to spend my money wisely.

KS: Star Citizen, Divinity Original Sin, The Mandate, California Headphones [released]. EA: Starsector AKA Starfarer, Starbound, State of Decay [released]. SL: WAR THUNDER <$500+ in already!(damn you game addiction!)
 

The Lugz

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vxicepickxv said:
It didn't start with Minecraft, it started with Windows.
hm, you have a good point however I'd say it didn't even start with windows it started with the distance trade order, where by you pay and then at some date you receive something, but in the meantime you get a receipt, and occasionally a pretty picture of what you own, but if bandits show up and hijack your cart full of goodies well you're boned.

I think the ~REAL~ message here is risk, it happens. if you want a guarantee in life, D.I.Y or do not cry! :)
 

IndomitableSam

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Sep 6, 2011
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I've put my money into a few early access games, but hat's only because I'd been following the development for a long time. If it was a game I was only casually interested in, I'd wait until it was done. There are many games I might get when they're ready. 7 Days to Die and DayZ... all those type of games, I'm waiting to see which one actually comes out on top, then I'll get that one.

That said, I bought State of Decay when it finally came on to PC. It was considered early access, but the game was done and had been on Xbox for a few months by then. Yeah, there were some bugs and issues as they had to fix things to do with lighting and controls, but I'd been following game development for about a year before it was released on Xbox and knew it would come to PC eventually, so I waited. I also bought Minecraft a few years ago... but, well... everyone did. It's been a full game since Notch released the alpha version of creative-mode only. They've just improved it since then.

Project Zomboid is another early access title I bought. It came out on Steam Early Access a couple months ago.. except I bought it a couple years ago for $8 because I loved the idea. $8 isn't much, and I got a Steam Key for it and I've been playing it again, so that's pretty awesome that they honored a purchase made back in 2011 or earlier.

Mostly I will support indies with early access and such these days - if what they put out is playable and worth the money they're charging. I pretty much don't pay anything over $20 for indie titles, even if complete. As for AAA titles? I don't even buy them new anymore, I wait months until all the 'release bugs' and other BS is sorted out and the game is on sale. I will probably get Black Flag and GTA V only this summer when the next big Steam sale is on and the games probably hit that magic $20 limit I have on games now.

Long story short? Only support early access if you've fully researched the title, the Devs are very active with the community and with updates, and if you think the title as it stands currently is worth the money they ask, because it may never get updated again and that is a chance you take.
 
Aug 1, 2010
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Playful Pony said:
This episode damn near killed me... Simply genious X3. Can't wait to see the finished product next week!

Sir Thomas Sean Connery said:
He was actually dumb enough to pay for the $90 Planetary Annihilation early access.
Actually, I don't see a problem with this. I totally get why people want to back projects they are interested in and want to succeed. I myself have payed more than my share for ships in Star Citizen, and lets remember that those ships can be gotten in-game anyway! The only benefit I get from buying them (for a whole bunch of money) is that they have some in-game insurance tied to them, and I get to play them from launch... But I didn't buy them because of those rather pointless benefits. I bought them because I want to support the game, and I want it to become the best game it could possibly be, and I believe that Chris Roberts is the man to do it.

When I pledged for Planetary Annihilation it was trough kickstarter, and in the same spirit. I wanted to be part of making that game happen. When I bought Space Engineers trough Steam Early Access I was still in that same mind set. I know I'm not getting a finished product when I spend that money, and I am perfectly aware that for all I know that money is lost 6 months down the line and no game will ever be released. Thats a risk I'm willing to take, and it is a risk people simply have to understand that they ARE taking when they back a kickstarter project or buy an Early Access game.

I think that may be the problem... People don't view kickstarter and Early Access the way I view them. I would never spend money on an Early Access game if I didn't KNOW that I could afford to lose all of it and never see anything in return. I wouldn't recommend anyone spend money they can't throw away on a game they are not sure about. For most people 30 USD isn't something one can just throw at any old project and hope it works out.

Of course I am in the rare position that I CAN afford to spend money on these projects and not worry about them succeeding or failing. For this reason I take great pleasure in backing something I firmly believe can become something truly great, and I still hold Star Citizen can become one of the greatest games of all time (and it wouldn't have happened without early backers!).
I actually somewhat agree with what you are saying. However, while your view that you could lose everything you pledged is perfectly fine for a place like Kickstarter, it isn't appropriate for Steam. Steam is a store. When you buy a product there, you're supposed to get a product.

As for Planetary Annihilation specifically, it's true that every kickstarter gives people the opportunity to pledge more than the price of the game, but then they also receive more than just the game when everything is finished. $90 deserves some incentives.
 

Playful Pony

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Sep 11, 2012
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Sir Thomas Sean Connery said:
I actually somewhat agree with what you are saying. However, while your view that you could lose everything you pledged is perfectly fine for a place like Kickstarter, it isn't appropriate for Steam. Steam is a store. When you buy a product there, you're supposed to get a product.

As for Planetary Annihilation specifically, it's true that every kickstarter gives people the opportunity to pledge more than the price of the game, but then they also receive more than just the game when everything is finished. $90 deserves some incentives.
Yea, I would agree with you on the PA case when it comes to Steam, I always held (and got a bit of flack for it on the PA forums for some reason...) that they should never have put it for sale on Steam with things being like they are. The reason it's $90 is that is what backers payed to get Alpha access, and they didn't want to make those backers feel cheated by then offering Alpha access at a lower price. I certainly understand and agree with that decision, but I understand why people got (at first) confused by it.

Steam IS a store, but I don't think the Early Access deal is bad. Of course it has to be made perfectly clear that what you are paying for is an UNFINISHED PRODUCT, and that it may not turn out to be all you hope it to be (or even all that the developers hope it will be). Maybe they should make that a bit more clear? People need to know and understand what they are getting into, and Steam has never been very good at that...

I don't agree with the idea that Early Access is something everyone should do though. AAA games has no place there in my opinion, because I see it as a way for small developers to get funding for their projects as they go by reaching out to those interested in their concept and ideas for the future of their particular game.
 

Evonisia

Your sinner, in secret
Jun 24, 2013
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But wait... who do I thank God for now?!

And I didn't even realise this was a thing, that's pretty fucked up. I can easily imagine an excuse being "well we'll give you the game for free (or more likely a discounted price)) when it is properly released!"
 

Candescence

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Jan 7, 2011
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As previously mentioned by others, early access is fine as long as the product is clearly labelled as such and the developer provides a lot of detail on what's incomplete, current bugs, etc. If you're clearly informed that you're taking a risk, you have nobody to blame but yourself if that risk doesn't end well for you.
 

teh_gunslinger

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. did it better.
Dec 6, 2007
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Vrach said:
One important thing I think a lot of people are missing with these Eearly access games that are paid for.

How long do you guys tend to play a single game? Discounting MMOs that I've been able to play for years (and even that was with me in high school, with tons of time on my hands), most of the games I play can at most hold my interest for some 2 months. At most. A few games are exception to that, but most are either multiplayer (usually with DLC) or completely built around replayability, like the Civilization series. Even there though, there's only so much I can play of the game before I just get bored and booting it up again is something that may happen once in 6-12 months.

With that in mind, why in the world would I pay for an unfinished game that's going to be finished several months from now at the earliest? I'd be setting myself up for one of two things - one, that the game is shit in it's state, unplayable and I've wasted money on it. It could possibly even tar the experience for me enough not to bother to install it again (or at least not enjoy it as much when I do) when it does get finished.

And two, that the game is playable and enjoyable enough in it's current state, in which case I'm paying the same price, possibly even a higher one, to play an unfinished product now and not have any interest in it once it's complete. That's a trade-off of quality for time of delivery that the gaming community has a high tendency to rage on about... so why the fuck do it willingly?

So imo, it's a lose-lose situation for the consumer, even if the game is actually playable in Early Access. I appreciate that it makes it easier on the developer and that's cool, but again, in it's shiniest moments, assuming it's not a game you're gonna play for years (and for an indie game, that's highly unlikely [not impossible though]), you're paying for an unfinished product to get it early.
I think you raise some valid points.

However, in my own case, the games I've bought on Early Access are DayZ, Kerbal Space Program, Prison Architect and Project Zomboid, all of which are systemic games that are very sandboxy. Seeing as I still go back and play Alpha Centauri and Crusader Kings 2 was my Goty in 2012 and 2013 and probably will be again in 2014, I think it's a fairly safe bet that, provided the games are good, I will keep coming back to them. I'd not buy a story game on Early Access but for me, systemic games are infinite engines for making my own, better stories that anything a story game can cough up. That's why I'm comfortable with those games in particular, as they scratch some of my various systemic itches.

So, I think, at the end of the day, if the game is clearly labelled as such and priced properly and you inform yourself of what you're getting into, Early Access is... alrightish. It's by no means awesome though. I am, despite the confidence in my purchases, vary of the concept.
 

Mark B

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Whats rubbed me the wrong way with the whole early access thing is the likes of Planetary Annihilation which charged people more to try their product early, this is after they successfully kickstarted their product and got all of their stretch goals and more.

So not only are you getting a buggy unfinished product your paying a premium for it and annoying all of your backers whom they promised exclusive access to it.

A simple solution would be to have a simple 5 star rating system for people who have bought the game. Sure steam already has a recommendation where you can write limited reviews but if you dont know anyone who has bought it its not worth the punt. It also would discourage people from firing stuff out half baked since they would attract a lot of low scores early on.
 
Jan 27, 2011
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Wait, Eldritch is still Early access? 0_o The game feels seriously complete to me...Coudl use a bit more room variety, but aside from that it was a total and complete blast!

Starbound is still missing a lot of stuff, so I'll wait for that before I jump back in.

...Also, I feel I should mention Sanctum 1 here. It was REALLY a trimmed down experience when it launched, with only 3 maps, and limited customization. But they eventually realeased a bunch more stuff for free and then added DLC for reasonably cheap as well and it turned out pretty decent.

Finally, I'm going to be one of those early access guys when God Factory finally does its official launch. I got to try the beta during the (unfairly failed) kickstarter campaign, and it was GLORIOUS. Def something I would pay for as is, and especially with the promise of more stuff to come.
 

Thanatos2k

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Aug 12, 2013
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Vrach said:
One important thing I think a lot of people are missing with these Eearly access games that are paid for.

How long do you guys tend to play a single game? Discounting MMOs that I've been able to play for years (and even that was with me in high school, with tons of time on my hands), most of the games I play can at most hold my interest for some 2 months. At most. A few games are exception to that, but most are either multiplayer (usually with DLC) or completely built around replayability, like the Civilization series. Even there though, there's only so much I can play of the game before I just get bored and booting it up again is something that may happen once in 6-12 months.

With that in mind, why in the world would I pay for an unfinished game that's going to be finished several months from now at the earliest? I'd be setting myself up for one of two things - one, that the game is shit in it's state, unplayable and I've wasted money on it. It could possibly even tar the experience for me enough not to bother to install it again (or at least not enjoy it as much when I do) when it does get finished.

And two, that the game is playable and enjoyable enough in it's current state, in which case I'm paying the same price, possibly even a higher one, to play an unfinished product now and not have any interest in it once it's complete. That's a trade-off of quality for time of delivery that the gaming community has a high tendency to rage on about... so why the fuck do it willingly?

So imo, it's a lose-lose situation for the consumer, even if the game is actually playable in Early Access. I appreciate that it makes it easier on the developer and that's cool, but again, in it's shiniest moments, assuming it's not a game you're gonna play for years (and for an indie game, that's highly unlikely [not impossible though]), you're paying for an unfinished product to get it early.
Precisely. I have a large backlog of COMPLETE RELEASED games I have yet to play. Why would I *ever* pay to play through an incomplete buggy game when I'm probably not going to come back to it?
 

90sgamer

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Jan 12, 2012
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I do not see the problem, Jim.
The choice ultimately falls on the consumer to decide if it's appropriate or not. It's the consumer's risk to make. The only obligation the producing business has is to inform the consumer that the product is being sold as-is, and that it is currently incomplete. It is not unlike a kickstarter. You are in essence arguing against used cars-- which do not have the complete value a new cars has: the guarantee that all parts of the car are in working order, and will remain in working under under warranty. Or, you are arging against currency backed by the good faith of a government: we receive slips of paper that are at face value useless and not as valuable as the numbers printed on them suggest; however, their value is guaranteed by a government which could potentially say "oops, nevermind your paper has no value," at any time. The alternative is bartering, only buying new cars, and only buying complete games, at your discretion.

Now, if the publisher is representing a product as complete, and it is not in fact a complete product, then that's fraud. Obviously, that is wrong, and there are laws in place to protect consumers against that sort of thing. What you are describing is different, and there is a legit consumer demand for it.
 

jpoon

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Great video and I do agree that the new trend is a bad one more than good. I am participating in a couple great and a few bad ones currently on steam alone and have started curbing this habit heavily after my more recent experiences (7DtD).
 

RobfromtheGulag

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May 18, 2010
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One game was enough to turn me off to this early access bizniss. Folktale. Was on Greenlight, looked good, comes out in ~Alpha mode, Early Access, I buy it. It has nothing but a tutorial which is not even complete or fully implemented. That's cool, they're working on it right? Right?
-Well, that was June '13. AFAIK nothing's changed, I replayed the oh-so-exciting demo back in November or so just to check. The developer periodically releases statements which I don't even bother to read anymore. The feedback forums appear to be going nowhere, why would they if the core game can't even make it out the gate.

So no, I used to be on the fence about indy games and their funding issues ergo Early Access, but now I'm done. Indy games end up being lackluster (imo) more often than not, but at least I get a full game and a sense of well-being for having aided the indy cause. I'm not paying for half-finished games, that's just encouraging bad business practices.

On the topic of AAA companies, this should obviously never even be an issue. AAA are by definition massive budget games. They don't need any more money to put out their 1080p 70fps games with microtransactions and release-day-dlc and cobbled-on multiplayer to get your friends to buy a copy. It may have even been Jimquisition that mentioned in the past Square-Enix's genius idea of selling 'parts' of games to gamers separately. This is a big step in that direction if it were to become accepted. First the 'DLC' (read: core game missing from 'Early Access') is free, then it comes at a premium.

This is souring my opinion of Greenlight as well. A game can look good, get Greenlit, and then voila it's out for Early Access purchase. What guarantee do I have that these games will ever be completed? It's cynical, but if I were to develop a product, a sandwich for example, and sell someone just two slices of bread for full price, what incentive do I have to ever give them the rest? I got their money, I can either put in a lot of effort for no additional money in hopes someone will hear about it and come for another sandwich, or cash out my chips now. Something about birds in the bush, was it?